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What actually blocks or impacts los now? Recently back into WHFB and TLOS is hurting my brain. Seems an argument can be made for seeing any unit on the map. Had a recent game where a player basically shot his artillery where he wanted. Dwarf player, so yes his muzzle wa higher than his stumpy dwarven units, but why then cant my larger cavalry or allies Ogres screen for my units behind them? Why are my talller elves not blocking the crouching ghouls? The rule seems to overly favor shooters, so what scenarios inhibit the shots, or at least force the shooter to pick the front line units? Large creatures notwithstanding, regular units seems to not have any means to use tactics to avoid warmachines. Please help clear this up for me. Site brb pages or faq if possible.

thanks!!

Well being behind a building or impassable terrain can actually block LOS. however yes currently if the models can see it they can shoot it. It is not as bad as it sounds as because most BS shooting is not that effective, definitely in larger games.

Just remember though when facing Cannons, its not what units they can see they can shoot at, it has to be the point on the ground that they have too see. This can help remove some of the insane shots people are doing with them, I know a buddy was just basically firing it without checking and doing some sketchty shots with his cannon until I looked and went, how are you seeing that point.

The same goes for mortars, Catapults and Trebs. They have to see the point they are firing at, if they don't, they indirect fire.

page 10 of the BRB states that you draw line (straight unobstructed) of sight from your models eyes to any part of the body (specifically arms legs head). They don't count weapons, banners or tails etc. If anything partially obstructs the view, that's a -1 to hit. If the majority of the target is obscured that is hard cover and that is a -2 to hit penalty. If the model is completely obscured well then no shot is possible. Cover is on pg 41 of the BRB

If cannons must see a point on the ground, can they target the other side of the model? Or must the target the first rank of a unit initially? How about beyond a large creature or monster, or on its far corner?


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For other stuff like bolt throwers, could an intervening unit or monster cause a -1 or -2 when shooting at a unit behind them?

A lot of experienced players will say "10 inches from the back" that meaning, that the spot that they are aiming at to start the cannonball rolling is 10 inches from the back of that model along its path. so Yes you must see that exact point on the table that is 10 inches from the back. You may have to get down and see if you can see that point on the table along line of sight. Firing though a hoard of 50 halberdiers is unlikely, however firing through 5-10 of them might be possible.

Mc1gamer wrote:
If cannons must see a point on the ground, can they target the other side of the model? Or must the target the first rank of a unit initially? How about beyond a large creature or monster, or on its far corner?

They can target what they can see. The first line of the cannon rules states you must be able to see the point ont he table you are aiming at, so you MUST be able to see it.

This is often played pre-8th in tournaments, as a houserule. Why they felt the need to make cannon stronger is anyones guess, of course.

But they also have many indications that combat is fluid and chaotic, so how can they see through ranks of units, or even their own units. Lining up a cannon on a diagonal and saying you can see a pin point between legs across the table is cheezy to the extreme. Seems there's something to be said for not being able to draw los thru units, but lanes between coloumns of troops is no prob, i have the same issue with firing 'over' a unit of its own armies troops, just because the muzzle is an 1/8 inch higher than their heads. Seems rather silky and not in the spirit of the rules. Same with terrain like forests. So we cant use our imagination and that forest terrain now has to have 50 trees, instead of 3,4,5 that can be removed so units traveling thru can be positioned on it. Shooting through forests because the models of trees isnt enough is also silly. Incan see shooting into a forest where a unit has taken refuge, with a modifier, but thru a dense forest where you shouldnt see a unit on the other side, because the terrain model is not overly lush, but we know its a forest (not 2-3 trees) is outlandish. How does everyone handle these cases? Im just tired of 20 min discussions on terrain and tlos nearly every game. Our group has alot of new players and though Ive played for over 20 years, I tool a rather long break and just returned to 8th edition. tLOS is giving me fits lol

TLOS is a terrible rule, but it's a simple one
You either play with it or use houserules close to the previous editions, just accept the fact that tournaments will usually use TLOS

nosferatu1001 wrote:

Mc1gamer wrote:
If cannons must see a point on the ground, can they target the other side of the model? Or must the target the first rank of a unit initially? How about beyond a large creature or monster, or on its far corner?

They can target what they can see. The first line of the cannon rules states you must be able to see the point ont he table you are aiming at, so you MUST be able to see it.

This is often played pre-8th in tournaments, as a houserule. Why they felt the need to make cannon stronger is anyones guess, of course.

Yup. This is why I liked harpies so much. I wouldn't charge the cannons, I'd just scout and then land 1" in front. Line of sight is drawn down the barrel, and ~half of your forward arc is covered by the chest of a harpy. Sure, 2 hits from grapeshot will panic them off, but that's 1 round of you not shooting my big monsters.

-Matt

What about stuff like that dinosaur with a laser on it's back? When you draw line of sight "from the eyes of the shooting model," are you using the eyes of the dinosaur? Or, if there's a skink riding on the back, do you use his eyes instead?