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 Void__Dragon wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:

Russ did evil things (Killing off 2 Legions and their Primarchs) but he was just doing his job and following orders. I'm sure he didn't relish the chore.

Only a coward utters the phrase "I was just following orders" to absolve oneself of the moral repercussions of one's actions.

He didn't actually say it but it remains a fact. He was given a direct order from the Emperor to do it, he had no choice in the matter. He wasn't trying to absolve anything because he had no moral repercussions. Morals in 30/40k come down to "Anything that harms the state is illegal. Anything that protects the state is legal." And by the Big E's Decree, Russ protected the state.

By Horus' decree, I think you meant.

The Emperor wanted Magnus brought back unharmed.

 Void__Dragon wrote:
By Horus' decree, I think you meant.

The Emperor wanted Magnus brought back unharmed.

that too but I'm referring to the destruction of the II and XI Legions.

We have no knowledge of what transpired there.

 Deadshot wrote:

 Void__Dragon wrote:
By Horus' decree, I think you meant.

The Emperor wanted Magnus brought back unharmed.

that too but I'm referring to the destruction of the II and XI Legions.

For all we know, they could be the evil ones.

Evil really doesn't exist in 40k, neither does good cause just about everyone is willing to do pretty bad things to further their cause.

The most sociopathic primarch would be a better answer. For that i'd say Fulgrim and Guilliman, selfish self serving and backstabbing. Fulgrim shouldn't have to be explained, papa smirf abandoned the Emperor, Sanguinus, Dorn, and the Khan to Horus and then came, usurped power, virus bombed half the Imperium, and cripled the legions.

 Imperial_Arson wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:

 Void__Dragon wrote:
By Horus' decree, I think you meant.

The Emperor wanted Magnus brought back unharmed.

that too but I'm referring to the destruction of the II and XI Legions.

For all we know, they could be the evil ones.

Likely, but this puts Russ on par with Fulgrim in terms of evilness if you go by Primarch kill count (which I don't).

quote]
Gulliman- was girly man.[

I thought he was called "girly man" because his last name, if incorrectly pronounced, could sound phonetically similar to that phrase. I frequently see him called "Rowboat Girlyman".

On-Topic, I would have to go with Fulgrim. Perfectionism and elitism aside, he betrayed his father and brothers so he could keep indulging in excess.

Kurze.

He and his Legion did not just kill. They tortured and maimed, then tortured some more. Then perhaps add you to their vehicles armor as decoration.

It started as a way of enforcing justice or compliance, but the truth of it was he ENJOYED it.

The other Primarchs did these things, however it was usually a means to an end. With Kurze it was for fun.

That, my friend, is evil.

Curze was severely mentally ill, he did it because he had a disease that compelled him to do so. The same can be said of Angron.

What excuse do the more sane Primarchs have?

[spoiler]He and his Legion did not just kill. They tortured and maimed, then tortured some more. Then perhaps add you to their vehicles armor as decoration.

So did lots of legions, and lots of non legions. Look at the Ecclisiarchy, I can't think of sick feths worse than those guys, those guys will turn you into an achroflagellant, the ultimate form of torture not only because of the pain but because they make you kill those who were once your brothers or kin.

Angron was pretty much mentally ill in the sense that he had these crazy machines in his brain, pumping up his aggression, eroding his brain functions and constantly jolting him with pain if he felt even a moment of peace.

The Emperor killed Mortarion's adoptive father! He denied him a moment of Catharsis and the ability to confront the man he considered an oppressor and get an explanation for his actions. To him it must have just seemed like history repeating itself again when Horus was convincing him of the Emperor's abandonment of the crusade. Plus then his most trusted Captain killed all of the Legion's navigators and let them fall victim to a horrible space plague before he decided to guide them out of the warp.

Which raises the point, I think Horus commited the worst acts. Sure many if not all of the Primarchs had their hand in a genocide or two, but Horus actually used his trust with his brothers to manipulate them to his cause. He turned noble warriors into monsters, using their insecurities against them, presenting himself as a saviour when he willingly damned them all. He wasn't an idiot, he only approached the Primarchs that he knew he could manipulate. He purposely let Angron off the chain, commiting atrocities that he knew would get him sanctions from Terra, then defended him when they sent an envoy to check on him. He worked Fulgrim's fear of failure into a poison that would get him to agree to anything he said (the daemon in the sword just convinced Fulgrim to listen more intently to this treachery). He set Russ on Magnus to pin his most loyal brother into a corner where he had to join Horus. He played on Mortarion's father issues and hatred of tyranny to help him. He convinced a very vulnerable Perturabo that his genocide was justified but that the Emperor would not agree and would kill him for what he did. Perturabo doesn't even hate the loyal legions and seems to despise what some of the traitors become but he was so convinced that Horus was the only person he could trust, that he turned his back on all of his core values. Worst of all, he did he best to see his closest brother, Sanguinius, dead, purely out of jealousy and fear that if Sang joined the cause that he would become leader of the rebellion.

Although the argument is that Lorgar's legion corrupted Horus in the first place, it is commented in First Herectic that the scheming was the desgin of Erebus and Kor Phaeron, not Lorgar himself.

A madman though he may be, Curze had a good point; He didn't suddenly start his terror campaigns at the end of the crusade, he had been doing that since the beginning and no one complained because they needed him. He took this as sanction for his actions, then all of a sudden they say he's going to far and he can only view this as hypocrasy. He was certainly not a kind soul but he alone stuck to his values throughout the heresy.

A madman though he may be, Curze had a good point; He didn't suddenly start his terror campaigns at the end of the crusade, he had been doing that since the beginning and no one complained because they needed him. He took this as sanction for his actions, then all of a sudden they say he's going to far and he can only view this as hypocrasy. He was certainly not a kind soul but he alone stuck to his values throughout the heresy.

The whole notion of the crusade seems like pure hypocrisy, you kill everyone who disagrees with you then you talk about reason and enlightenment, kill of the old religions and then replace it with a strange sort of warrior cult but say your doing it in the name of secularism, use robots to commit genocide against a planet for using robots, genetically modify your soldiers while talking about genetic purity, punish the thousand sons while using the warp and maybe even chaos when it suits you( I still wonder if the demons were right about the Emperor reneging on a deal with the Chaos Gods). It shows you how they censored the remembrancers. Angron put it pretty well in night of the wolf when he mentions how the imperial tithe is slavery in all but name.

Which raises the point, I think Horus commited the worst acts

Revolution is not a dinner party. Mao said that but its true for just about every revolution including our own.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Sanguinius, dead, purely out of jealousy and fear that if Sang joined the cause that he would become leader of the rebellion.

I didn't read whatever book mentioned that. I did read in Betrayer that Lorgar thought Sang would never join and believed that he was weak because doubt and fear.

It was in Fear To Tread. Erebus has his whole big plan (which obviously fails) to turn Sanguinius, but Horus is enraged by the idea, he wants his brother dead no matter what because he feels that he would somehow be usurped if Sanguinius sided with Chaos.

I don't see why Sangiinius was have usurped him, Horus was at least respected by all the other primarchs, Sanguinius seems to have made quite a lot of enemies, both Lorgar and Angron seem to have plenty negative to say. I have to agree with them, his psych was great for a martyr, but a leader can't be afraid to lead, that's why he didn't make warmaster.

There is no such thing as evil.

That said, Leman Russ.

Partly because I'm up to the last chapter of A Thousand Sons (Lemuel, NOOOO!) and partly because his kids gave birth to that servo rustling abomination, JotWW.

Oh, and because the whole wolf theme is so bourgeois.

 KorPhaeron77 wrote:
A madman though he may be, Curze had a good point; He didn't suddenly start his terror campaigns at the end of the crusade, he had been doing that since the beginning and no one complained because they needed him. He took this as sanction for his actions, then all of a sudden they say he's going to far and he can only view this as hypocrasy. He was certainly not a kind soul but he alone stuck to his values throughout the heresy.

Actually, that's not true. Curze had been told off for his excessive uses of force and terror repeatedly, and according to the Index Astartes, the Emperor was about to send someone to punish him (with the HH novels, that'd presumably be Russ and the Wolves) when the Heresy broke out and it was too late.

...

That said, he still had the coolest exit scene of any Primarch.

Ironclad Warlord wrote:
I don't see why Sangiinius was have usurped him, Horus was at least respected by all the other primarchs, Sanguinius seems to have made quite a lot of enemies, both Lorgar and Angron seem to have plenty negative to say. I have to agree with them, his psych was great for a martyr, but a leader can't be afraid to lead, that's why he didn't make warmaster.

Lorgar and Angron had those things to say after they had already turned. Pre-heresy, Sanguinius was more liked among the primarchs than any other, even Horus.

Bran Dawri wrote:

 KorPhaeron77 wrote:
A madman though he may be, Curze had a good point; He didn't suddenly start his terror campaigns at the end of the crusade, he had been doing that since the beginning and no one complained because they needed him. He took this as sanction for his actions, then all of a sudden they say he's going to far and he can only view this as hypocrasy. He was certainly not a kind soul but he alone stuck to his values throughout the heresy.

Actually, that's not true. Curze had been told off for his excessive uses of force and terror repeatedly, and according to the Index Astartes, the Emperor was about to send someone to punish him (with the HH novels, that'd presumably be Russ and the Wolves) when the Heresy broke out and it was too late.

...

That said, he still had the coolest exit scene of any Primarch.

He wasn't though, the examples you are thinking of are all within a few years of the Heresy breaking out, he had nearly 2 centuries of doing it his way before he was called out by Dorn. Curze himself even voiced his concerns to Terra that his Legion was filling up with murderous criminals but they basically told him to get on with it. If they had sent someone to Nostramo about 50 years earlier, they could have cleaned up the recruitment process and stopped the spread of corruption. Instead Curze saw an Imperium that didn't care as long as it's Legions got results and it's tithes were paid. Honestly, so many of the Primarch's should never have been given command in the first place, the Emperor wanted a shared ideology so he was a moron for unleashing 20 sons with their own totally different methods of war on the galaxy. The only Primarch that got it right was Guilliman, who actually knew how to build and maintain an Empire. Vulkan, Dorn, Magnus, they were all essentially good men with honest intentions but you can't argue with the fact that not one other Primarch managed to achieve a succesful sub-empire like Guilliman. This isn't fanboyism either, I don't even like the Ultramarines, but in terms of infrastrucure, Ultramar was the most sound achievement of the Great Crusade.

Lorgar and Angron had those things to say after they had already turned. Pre-heresy, Sanguinius was more liked among the primarchs than any other, even Horus.

Sanguinius was a mutant leading a legion of cursed astartes, thats why he did'nt make warmaster, they were referred to as vampires for a reasons. Horus was the best pick, most other primarchs would have turned long before. I don't now why but I think that Angron, Lorgar, Curze and Rauss would have been the only ones who would have been able to resist, Rus and Angron just because they did'nt have any emotional weaknesses, Curze because he understood human sin better than anyone, and Lorgar because of faith in the Emperor(assuming the Emperor was'nt a huge jerk to him). But they didn't make it because they were butchers terrorist and crusaders, and the Emperor wanted someone who could be that and a diplomat at the same time, Horus was the greatest of the Primarchs.

There are so many things wrong with this post I don't even know where to start.

Ironclad Warlord wrote:
Sanguinius was a mutant leading a legion of cursed astartes, thats why he did'nt make warmaster, they were referred to as vampires for a reasons.

Strictly speaking all the primarchs were mutants, and the Blood Angels were not known as vampires during the Great Crusade. Nobody saw them as cursed except Sanguinius himself.

Ironclad Warlord wrote:
I don't now why but I think that Angron, Lorgar, Curze and Rauss would have been the only ones who would have been able to resist, Rus and Angron just because they did'nt have any emotional weaknesses, Curze because he understood human sin better than anyone, and Lorgar because of faith in the Emperor(assuming the Emperor was'nt a huge jerk to him)

-Angron is actually nothing but emotional weakness. Rage is an emotion, and it happens to be one that fits perfectly with one of the chaos gods, so how is that not an emotional weakness?
-Curze understood human sin very well this is true, and yet he still chose to commit his own sins on a regular basis. He was destined to fall to chaos it seems.
-Lorgar was weak-minded, he couldn't function properly without something to worship it seems, and the chaos gods fill that need quite well.
-Russ is the only one that you listed who would be able to resist if you ask me, because of his loyalty to the Emperor. But he was still manipulated by Horus into doing the chaos gods' bidding.

Ironclad Warlord wrote:
But they didn't make it because they were butchers terrorist and crusaders, and the Emperor wanted someone who could be that and a diplomat at the same time, Horus was the greatest of the Primarchs.

And yet the only instance we know of that Horus tried to be diplomatic, he failed miserably. He said himself that Sanguinius should have been Warmaster. A sentiment he repeated after he fell to chaos and was afraid that a chaos-turned Sanguinius would be superior to him and usurp his position. And let's not forget that Horus waltzed into the trap that ultimately turned him to chaos due to a strong desire to defend his pride and reputation. He was hardly the ideal candidate for warmaster when thinking about those who could have resisted chaos.

There are so many things wrong with this post I don't even know where to start.

I could say the same about you.

Nobody saw them as cursed except Sanguinius himself.

Malcador sent the wolves to assassinate him in fear to tread. Angron said he was a mutant, Curze said he was cursed, and Lorgar said he Sang was riddled with fear and insecurity.

Also Sang said that Horus was the ideal candidate for the warmaster.

-Angron is actually nothing but emotional weakness. Rage is an emotion, and it happens to be one that fits perfectly with one of the chaos gods, so how is that not an emotional weakness?
-Curze understood human sin very well this is true, and yet he still chose to commit his own sins on a regular basis. He was destined to fall to chaos it seems.
-Lorgar was weak-minded, he couldn't function properly without something to worship it seems, and the chaos gods fill that need quite well.
-Russ is the only one that you listed who would be able to resist if you ask me, because of his loyalty to the Emperor. But he was still manipulated by Horus into doing the chaos gods' bidding.

Angon like Curze had seen the worst humanity had, because of that depressing prophecies that the gods would give him wouldn't faze him the way it fazed the other primarchs.
Curze never fell to Chaos even though his Legion did.
Lorgar, seriously how are people saying this guy is weak. He starts a rebellion greater than anything in human history, survives a trial from the Gods, is picked by them before the other primarchs, psychicly cammands Horus to take his hand off of him. Splits the galaxy in half with his mind, burns a good portion of his rivals empire to the ground, then caves in the left side of that said rivals face and is one of only two primarchs with an intack legion of non ghost non zombie astartes in 40k. Whatever you say about the guy he wasn't weak.

Horus by far. All the other primachs have reasons, had been tricked, haunted by visions, slaved, etc. Horus were the only one that eventually choose chaos because his pride. Not because he were fooled by Erebus, not because he was dying, but he came to feel the Emperor had betrayed him lying about the Chaos issue. He came to believe that his father had use him as a tool and soon or later he were cast aside, instead of be glorify. His pride made the galaxy burn, fighted agains his own brothers and destroy the very Imperium he helped to create. As I see, Horus never was a tool of chaos. He mastered his own destiny from the very beginning.

 Blackhair Duckshape wrote:
There is no such thing as evil.

That said, Leman Russ.

Partly because I'm up to the last chapter of A Thousand Sons (Lemuel, NOOOO!) and partly because his kids gave birth to that servo rustling abomination, JotWW.

Oh, and because the whole wolf theme is so bourgeois.

Hey, those are my exact thoughts! Poor Lemuel and his friendzone-friends

Ironclad Warlord wrote:

There are so many things wrong with this post I don't even know where to start.

I could say the same about you.

Nobody saw them as cursed except Sanguinius himself.

Malcador sent the wolves to assassinate him in fear to tread. Angron said he was a mutant, Curze said he was cursed, and Lorgar said he Sang was riddled with fear and insecurity.

Also Sang said that Horus was the ideal candidate for the warmaster.

-Angron is actually nothing but emotional weakness. Rage is an emotion, and it happens to be one that fits perfectly with one of the chaos gods, so how is that not an emotional weakness?
-Curze understood human sin very well this is true, and yet he still chose to commit his own sins on a regular basis. He was destined to fall to chaos it seems.
-Lorgar was weak-minded, he couldn't function properly without something to worship it seems, and the chaos gods fill that need quite well.
-Russ is the only one that you listed who would be able to resist if you ask me, because of his loyalty to the Emperor. But he was still manipulated by Horus into doing the chaos gods' bidding.

Angon like Curze had seen the worst humanity had, because of that depressing prophecies that the gods would give him wouldn't faze him the way it fazed the other primarchs.
Curze never fell to Chaos even though his Legion did.
Lorgar, seriously how are people saying this guy is weak. He starts a rebellion greater than anything in human history, survives a trial from the Gods, is picked by them before the other primarchs, psychicly cammands Horus to take his hand off of him. Splits the galaxy in half with his mind, burns a good portion of his rivals empire to the ground, then caves in the left side of that said rivals face and is one of only two primarchs with an intack legion of non ghost non zombie astartes in 40k. Whatever you say about the guy he wasn't weak.

Malcador sent the wolves to watch Sanguinius, not assassinate him, big difference. Also the reason for sending them had nothing to do with any preconception that Sanguinius was cursed, it was because the heresy had already begun and Malcador wanted to know which side Sanguinius would pick.

Angron and Curze saw the worst in humanity blah blah blah, so did a lot of the other primarchs. It doesn't change the fact that Angron is a rage machine, and therefore is a walking emotional wreck.

You misunderstand my appraisal of Lorgar. I'm not talking about physical strength or psychic strength, I'm talking about strength of character. He fell to pieces when he was no longer allowed to worship the Emperor, and it wasn't until Erebus introduced him to chaos that he was able to function at all. He craves leadership, something to obey. He is a sycophant, it is not the hallmark of a strong person.

Sanguinius and Horus both said the other should have been warmaster. Again, when Lorgar, Angron, and Curze said those things they had already turned. Pre-heresy, Sanguinius was the most liked primarch. Horus said himself that Sanguinius would have been the only option for warmaster that everyone would have accepted.

Originally you said you didn't understand why people thought Sanguinius would usurp Horus' position. But it is clearly stated in the books that Horus fears that exact outcome. So what are we arguing about?

trifasicum wrote:
Horus by far. All the other primachs have reasons, had been tricked, haunted by visions, slaved, etc. Horus were the only one that eventually choose chaos because his pride. Not because he were fooled by Erebus, not because he was dying, but he came to feel the Emperor had betrayed him lying about the Chaos issue. He came to believe that his father had use him as a tool and soon or later he were cast aside, instead of be glorify. His pride made the galaxy burn, fighted agains his own brothers and destroy the very Imperium he helped to create. As I see, Horus never was a tool of chaos. He mastered his own destiny from the very beginning.

This could be argued. Unless it gets retconned, the old William King write up of the Heresy depicts Horus as supremely remorseful once the chaos gods release their hold on him. When the Emperor was about to blast him into oblivion the chaos gods flee his body, he realizes what he has done and he begins to weep. So it could still be argued that every decision he supposedly made for himself was strongly influenced by the chaos gods.

Malcador sent the wolves to watch Sanguinius, not assassinate him, big difference.

Originally you said you didn't understand why people thought Sanguinius would usurp Horus' position. But it is clearly stated in the books that Horus fears that exact outcome. So what are we arguing about?

You ever have a book you read and just don't get, fear to tread was that book for me. Like why Horus cut off Erebus's face at the end, I mean the guy deserved it for many many different reasons like having Horus killed at Davin but Horus just seemed to have a sadistic tantrum because someone didn't agree with him.

He fell to pieces when he was no longer allowed to worship the Emperor, and it wasn't until Erebus introduced him to chaos that he was able to function at all.

His life's work was in ruins and people who he cared about were dead. I think he's allowed a week of being messed up. Shaming Lorgar was the worst decision the Emperor made. I mean really what could Lorgar have done after that, just say that the deaths of people he loved like an extension of his family, accept that his Legion ALONE had failed the Emperor despite the erratic and often downright bizzare behavior of his brothers. Come on, Curze attacks Dorn, Vulkan attacks Curze, Russ attacks Angron, the Emperors hildren nearly get the Sons of Horus killed on Murder, and the Iron Hands and Mechanicum are allowed to worship machines as well as superstious beliefs with Russ casting Runes, Curze playing with cards, and Vulkans promethium cult.

It depends where you go with this one really...Naturally disturbed would be The Night Haunter...Lorgar wasn't really bad...his reprimanding and humiliation at the hands of the Emperor in front of the Ultramarines sowed the seed of Chaos and started him down that path...The same cod also be said for Angron...revenge is a big factor and motive...complete bitterness oh and those implants too...Horus was a complete good guy until he was mortally wounded and then was turned by a few factors...Lorgars meddling in his legion and eventually turning him against the Imperium. Post heresy all of the Chaos Primarch's are evil beyond belief.

 81Northman wrote:
It depends where you go with this one really...Naturally disturbed would be The Night Haunter...Lorgar wasn't really bad...his reprimanding and humiliation at the hands of the Emperor in front of the Ultramarines sowed the seed of Chaos and started him down that path...The same cod also be said for Angron...revenge is a big factor and motive...complete bitterness oh and those implants too...Horus was a complete good guy until he was mortally wounded and then was turned by a few factors...Lorgars meddling in his legion and eventually turning him against the Imperium. Post heresy all of the Chaos Primarch's are evil beyond belief.

Lorgar embraced the "religion of evil" when he turned to Chaos. He is fully aware that his actions are entirely evil, and while a small part of him tries to find solace in the "well, I didn't ask for the true gods to be the forces of darkness, but they are, so my hands are tied" line, it's pretty clear that he is entirely complicit.

Night Haunter, certainly by the time of Vulkan Lives (!!!!) and The Unremembered Empire, is also entirely malevolent, with an attitude of "the entire universe will drown in it's own blood!".

Horus and Fulgrim are both megalomaniacs, obsessed with their own status and power above all else. That's a different brand of evil, and while they both commit insane acts of depravity, I don't think it's on quite the same level as Lorgar and certainly not the Night Haunter.

I think Angron because he was the first primarch to join horus, he killed several of his own armies captains just because they tried to talk to him and he was so god damned resilient, even when out numbered massively he was just like screw it im still going to try and butcher all of you... i think he was the most mentally twisted