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I got a question for those who are better-read than I.

Is there any history or instances where a trophy of some kind was taken by an Imperial leader/character/whatever from a defeated enemy and the enemy was not killed?

To give this some better context, the point of this question is that I am starting to outline some fluff for my Adepta Soroitas order, and I've gotten to my Canoness. While on the tabletop, she uses a power axe, specifically a frost axe from a SW kit, I'm wondering if that would be something that happens fluff-wise. For example, let's say that this AS order gets into a scrap with some Space Wolves (not that far-fetched) and the Sisters win. Would it fall in the realm of possibility that the Canoness, knowing the pride of the Wolves, would let their leader (Wolf Guard, or Lord, doesn't matter all that much to me) go after taking his axe as something of a trophy, sparking an enmity between the two? I think it really revolves around one; would a Sister do something like this? And two; how a Space Wolf would take it?

And I suppose as a third, big idea, is this a good angle for fluff or not?

I think they'd just 'clean the remains'... as in, Torching everything

I don't think the Sisters are into taking trophies, and the SW would probably not rest before one of their most sacred artifacts is returned to the Fang.
A power axe might be possible, but a frost axe is a no go.
Frost axes are incredibly rare and are only wielded by the Wolf Lords themselves, who would probably rather die than surrendering their chapter's precious artifact. Especially not to a SoB.
That would mean that your canonness would have to destroy an entire Great Company to get that axe, which would probably not go unrevenged by the rest of the chapter.

A more reasonable explanation might be that your canonness saved a Wolf Lords life or something like that and she won so much respect that he gifted her with the frost axe

 Iron_Captain wrote:
I don't think the Sisters are into taking trophies, and the SW would probably not rest before one of their most sacred artifacts is returned to the Fang.
A power axe might be possible, but a frost axe is a no go.
Frost axes are incredibly rare and are only wielded by the Wolf Lords themselves, who would probably rather die than surrendering their chapter's precious artifact. Especially not to a SoB.
That would mean that your canonness would have to destroy an entire Great Company to get that axe, which would probably not go unrevenged by the rest of the chapter.

A more reasonable explanation might be that your canonness saved a Wolf Lords life or something like that and she won so much respect that he gifted her with the frost axe

Um, where are you seeing that only Wolf Lords get frost axes? It's entirely possible I don't have the right sources, but I know there's plenty of times I've seen frost weapons on wolf guard and so on, both on the tabletop and in the fluff. Can you point me in the right direction?

... or maybe that AS Order *did* wipe out a SW GC that was nosing about in the wrong place, following their tiff with the Ecclesiarchy, and got wiped out.

However, the only kinds of "trophies" that the Sisterhood normally carries are the relics of Imperial Saints. They typically don't seize things from the enemy dead.

And, specifically in this case, because the Frost Axe is coming from the Space Wolves, who are still the grandsons of the God-Emperor, it is more likely that she would return it to Logan Grimnar... possibly with an attached letter that reminds the Wolves who they are, and advises them to not go poking their noses into the business of the Ecclesiarchy.

Well, probably not a whole Grand Company, that would probably break the fluff, since a Great Company would outnumber any [i]two[i] Orders Majoris and no matter how well trained the Sororitas are, being outnumbered by physically and equipmentally (if not martially) superior foes will take its toll.

That said, Space Wolves don't travel in Great Companies. They rarely travel in greater than Squad strength - so anything up to about 6000 points worth of Space Wolves could be doable.

As Psienesis says, however, a Canoness who killed a Wolf Guard or Wolf Lord probably would return their wargear (and their bodies) to the Wolves, along with a report as to just how twisted and devolved the Space Wolves in question were. Just in the interest of not plunging the Imperium into a civil war, you understand, since the Wolves are the only Marines outside the Black Templars who could potentially destroy the Imperium single-handedly.

If you want your Canoness to have a frost axe, there are plenty of options though - starting with Iron's idea that it was a gift, perhaps weregild for some Sisters the wolves killed in error.

 Furyou Miko wrote:

As Psienesis says, however, a Canoness who killed a Wolf Guard or Wolf Lord probably would return their wargear (and their bodies) to the Wolves, along with a report as to just how twisted and devolved the Space Wolves in question were. Just in the interest of not plunging the Imperium into a civil war, you understand, since the Wolves are the only Marines outside the Black Templars who could potentially destroy the Imperium single-handedly.

To be fair, the Ultramarines could probably do that as well. Having 2/3rds of all Space Marines in the galaxy at your beck and call can cause no shortage of trouble.

I mean, not only is the majority of all Space Marines wanting your head bad enough, but the Imperium, seeing as it is beset on all sides, would hardly be able to handle such a rebellion. Not to mention that other enemies (Like the CSM) would see the opportunity and strike as well.

But I digress.

I agree with the 'gift of respect' thing. It seems far more plausible than any of the other options.

 curran12 wrote:

 Iron_Captain wrote:
I don't think the Sisters are into taking trophies, and the SW would probably not rest before one of their most sacred artifacts is returned to the Fang.
A power axe might be possible, but a frost axe is a no go.
Frost axes are incredibly rare and are only wielded by the Wolf Lords themselves, who would probably rather die than surrendering their chapter's precious artifact. Especially not to a SoB.
That would mean that your canonness would have to destroy an entire Great Company to get that axe, which would probably not go unrevenged by the rest of the chapter.

A more reasonable explanation might be that your canonness saved a Wolf Lords life or something like that and she won so much respect that he gifted her with the frost axe

Um, where are you seeing that only Wolf Lords get frost axes? It's entirely possible I don't have the right sources, but I know there's plenty of times I've seen frost weapons on wolf guard and so on, both on the tabletop and in the fluff. Can you point me in the right direction?

You are right about that, I guess I know the SW codex less well than that I thought I did.
Still, the frost weapons are among the SW most prized artifacts, and knowing the SW, they would not suffer one of them being stolen.
Making it a gift of respect still seems a far more reasonable explanation, not to mention it makes for an awesome potential story.

On the other hand... The AS can't buy Frost Weapons in their army list but Power Weapons are fine. So it will still be just a "regular" PW with some wolf decorations, and those are nowhere near as rare as one would think. Space Wolves are some of the most PW-heavy marine forces you can find and over the millenia they've built up a habit of wolfifying their gear, just as other of the original Legions/Secound foundings have a heavy dose of their own heraldry on gear.

Just taking something as a trophy in some minor skirmish would probably be frowned upon not only by the SW but the AS themself. The wolves - living on heroic deeds as they are - would think it wasn't "earned" well enough. A trophy from some larger fight though? They might actually applaud someone powerful enough to take it, while also sending hopeful challengers to get it back in a heroic fashion. And SoB would probably think someone who takes enemy wargear as trophies is getting above her station. A Sister carries what gear the Emperor (through his church and the Order Militant) has given into her care, not whatever catches her fancy. A captured relic would have to be purified, consecrated, ritually entered into the rolls of approved relics and so on before anyone can be issued it from the armories.

Hmmm...been mulling over the idea of a rescue gift, and that could work. I had originally been thinking of the weapon in terms of a stolen prize, but the more thinking I do about it, it does make sense if a Canoness is gifted a frost axe for some particularly daring bit of rescue after the Wolf Lord in question gets himself in over his head.

Yeah, I can imagine it. Wolf Lord blunders into melee with a Defiler or something, and the SoB melta brigade arrives.

Well white scars take heads lol that's a trophy of sorts.

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:


To be fair, the Ultramarines could probably do that as well. Having 2/3rds of all Space Marines in the galaxy at your beck and call can cause no shortage of trouble.

I mean, not only is the majority of all Space Marines wanting your head bad enough, but the Imperium, seeing as it is beset on all sides, would hardly be able to handle such a rebellion. Not to mention that other enemies (Like the CSM) would see the opportunity and strike as well.

That's why I specified "single-handedly" - the Ultramarines would have to use allied and successor chapters to help them, while the Wolves would just... be the Wolves. I'm not saying the Smurfs couldn't take over the Imperium, just that because their schtick is "working together for a better future", they wouldn't be able to do it alone, although of all the Chapters, they are best placed to gather the necessary allies.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Well, probably not a whole Grand Company, that would probably break the fluff, since a Great Company would outnumber any [i]two[i] Orders Majoris and no matter how well trained the Sororitas are, being outnumbered by physically and equipmentally (if not martially) superior foes will take its toll.

That said, Space Wolves don't travel in Great Companies. They rarely travel in greater than Squad strength - so anything up to about 6000 points worth of Space Wolves could be doable.

As Psienesis says, however, a Canoness who killed a Wolf Guard or Wolf Lord probably would return their wargear (and their bodies) to the Wolves, along with a report as to just how twisted and devolved the Space Wolves in question were. Just in the interest of not plunging the Imperium into a civil war, you understand, since the Wolves are the only Marines outside the Black Templars who could potentially destroy the Imperium single-handedly.

If you want your Canoness to have a frost axe, there are plenty of options though - starting with Iron's idea that it was a gift, perhaps weregild for some Sisters the wolves killed in error.

The second-largest Space Wolf Great Company is noted as holding 200 Marines. They're *not* that big.

Huh. Really? That's not the impression I got from the codex... although I'll admit, Blood of Asaheim supports your version.

That book was awful for other reasons though.

With generous mathematics, the Space Wolves Chapter is ~1600 Marines strong. Large, for a Chapter, but not Black Templars large.

A Major Order of the AS does, in fact, outnumber the whole SW chapter

 Psienesis wrote:
With generous mathematics, the Space Wolves Chapter is ~1600 Marines strong. Large, for a Chapter, but not Black Templars large.

That is only if you strictly take the numbers from Blood of Asaheim, which is like all BL books, of dubious canonicity. Besides that, Battle of the Fang. written by the same author, clearly lists the strenght of the chapter at 2000, even after losing an entire Great Company.
The SW Codex very clearly states that a great company is made up of at least 100+ marines and it's further size depends on the fame and fortune of it's lord. There is not any set size for a great company and the Great Wolf's company is probably a lot larger than the other ones. Based on that I would say that anywhere from 150 to 300 for a full great company seems like an acceptable estimate. The Great Wolf's company could be even larger.
The average size of the SW chapter would probably be anywere from 2000 to 3000.

In general though, I would say that the SW are much larger than most other chapters but indeed not even near the size of the Black Templars. I have no idea how large they are, but I get the impression they are at least around 5000-6000 strong.

The problem is the mention that Ragnar Blackmane has 200 Space Wolves in his Great Company, and is noted as being the second-largest.

If that is true, then his Great Company and 10 of the remaining Great Companies (being those smaller than his), even with 199 Marines, barely breaks 2000. So unless Logan's Company has *a lot* of people in it, the entire Space Wolves Chapter probably tops out around 2500 Marines, *if* we are very, very generous with the numbers of the 10 smaller Great Companies.

But if we go with 150 per GC, we have 1700 before Logan's gets counted, which then brings us to 2100, if we assume Logan's Great Company is twice the size of Blackmane's and has 400 Marines in it.

And if we go on the low end, we have Ragnar with 200, 10 GCs of 101, and, let's say, Logan has 400. 1701 Marines in the entire Chapter, and that's with Logan having twice the number of Marines in his GC, which is not stated anywhere, I just made that up for this bit of math.

The people saying that the Space Wolves approach BT or larger size, somehow fielding 6K+ Marines, are simply wrong.