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Vulgar wrote:
Based off of both croissants and the IA with the Maynark(sp) dynasty, I don't see any race being able to defeat the necrons in the air, let alone anywhere. Maybe the nids could present a tarpit in air, but I just don't see how the crons wouldn't eventually chew through it.

Since the Craftworld Eldar are written to be incompetent at all levels I immediately dismiss them.

If horse mounted spearmen led by a hun can destroy a necron army in one charge then im sure they are beatable.

 Galdos wrote:
I like all these post that are flying in the logic of real world with plenty of historical examples proving how incorrect they are.

I'm sorry, when was real-world Earth invaded by space alien robo-skeletons, space elves, angry space fungi, or creatures from a Robotech anime?

 Psienesis wrote:

 Galdos wrote:
I like all these post that are flying in the logic of real world with plenty of historical examples proving how incorrect they are.

I'm sorry, when was real-world Earth invaded by space alien robo-skeletons, space elves, angry space fungi, or creatures from a Robotech anime?

Dpesnt mean they are exempt from real world scenarios. If real wolrd earth is invaded by aliens, physics doesnt just dissapear nor do tactics and common sense.

So dont be slowed because its not real.

There hasn't been an argument involving physics, there have been arguments recalling historic military feats.

None of those feats has dealt with an advanced civilization from outer space.

We have never been able to jam or block the targeting auspex of a Lunar-Class battlecruiser because we've never seen one.

We have never tested the effectiveness of our anti-aircraft batteries against a vessel built out of Necrodermis, because we've never faced it.

We've never, ever dealt with a race of alien insects that arrive in numbers so vast that they block out the light of the sun.

 Psienesis wrote:
There hasn't been an argument involving physics, there have been arguments recalling historic military feats.

None of those feats has dealt with an advanced civilization from outer space.

We have never been able to jam or block the targeting auspex of a Lunar-Class battlecruiser because we've never seen one.

We have never tested the effectiveness of our anti-aircraft batteries against a vessel built out of Necrodermis, because we've never faced it.

We've never, ever dealt with a race of alien insects that arrive in numbers so vast that they block out the light of the sun.

Yes but its very safe to assume that if you hold the orbit you hold the airspace. Common sense never changes. Based on what we know we can make assumptions, because thats better than saying "its not real who cares".

Depends on who you have holding space and with what, actually. The Imperium can hold space all they want.... but most battlecruisers are terrible weapons for aerial combat.

 Psienesis wrote:
Depends on who you have holding space and with what, actually. The Imperium can hold space all they want.... but most battlecruisers are terrible weapons for aerial combat.

sigh ok, so a fleet has a planet blockaded. The fleet contains all the usual classes and from the small fighters right up to the larger ones. How on earth (oh sorry for your sake, how in "not real galaxy") is an army meant to run air operations on that planet without having the fleets weapons and own fighter craft come screaming down on them, let alone follow them to their base and destroy them there?

Well, one, a space-faring vessel can usually withstand between 0 and 1 atmospheres of pressure. So if said space-fighter is not also equipped for atmosphereic operations, it cannot enter the atmosphere of the planet.

Two, battleships of 40k races pack feth-off huge guns. Guns that are, time and time again, said to be slow to target, aim and reload after they fire. And while they're "big guns", we are still talking about guns with a barrel measured in meters of diameter. The lances of a battleship are simply too unwieldy to shoot down aircraft.

Three, what ground defenses does the planet have? The Imperium does not usually move to blockade a planet at close range because ground-based defenses are very, very capable of shooting their ships out of the sky. This is, in fact, why the ground and air war exists, to get the IG and the SM onto the planet to take out those Surface-to-Space defense weapons so the Navy can move in close and provide direct support. This is, too, a role that the SM excel at, being able to drop-pod onto the planet, neutralize these guns, and then get picked up when the fleet can move in and deploy en mass.

ETA: Also, with the ESB example used previously, the problem was that the Imperial fleet came out of hyperspace too early. This is why Admiral Ozzel gets Force Choked to death by Vader over a viewscreen.

 Psienesis wrote:
Well, one, a space-faring vessel can usually withstand between 0 and 1 atmospheres of pressure. So if said space-fighter is not also equipped for atmosphereic operations, it cannot enter the atmosphere of the planet.

Two, battleships of 40k races pack feth-off huge guns. Guns that are, time and time again, said to be slow to target, aim and reload after they fire. And while they're "big guns", we are still talking about guns with a barrel measured in meters of diameter. The lances of a battleship are simply too unwieldy to shoot down aircraft.

Three, what ground defenses does the planet have? The Imperium does not usually move to blockade a planet at close range because ground-based defenses are very, very capable of shooting their ships out of the sky. This is, in fact, why the ground and air war exists, to get the IG and the SM onto the planet to take out those Surface-to-Space defense weapons so the Navy can move in close and provide direct support. This is, too, a role that the SM excel at, being able to drop-pod onto the planet, neutralize these guns, and then get picked up when the fleet can move in and deploy en mass.

So a fleet with absolutely nothing to use to enter the atmosphere and or deal damage to the planet below? I doubt it. The ships dont have smaller guns? I am very sure they would. And if you HAVE CONTROL OF THE ORBIT THAT MEANS IT IS YOURS WITHOUT SIGNIFIGANT THREAT. Soldiers dont say they have taken a beach when there are MGs shooting them. Part of taking it means freeing it of danger.

Yes, actually. That is *precisely* how the Imperium works, following the events of the Horus Heresy. The Imperial Navy has NO CAPABILITY of prosecuting a war on a planet's surface. None. Just as the IG has no capability of getting off a planet by themselves. They require the Navy to do that.

And, in military jargon, "taking control" of an area indicates only that active combat operations have ceased. It does not preclude enemy forces still being in the area and combat-capable. Hence one of Murphy's Laws of Combat: "When you have established control of an area, do not forget to tell the enemy."

Ignoring that for a moment, though, you're trying to have your cake and eat it to. You started out arguing that establishing orbital control was a direct path to establishing air superiority, but now you are saying that you have to establish air superiority before you can establish orbital superiority. You cannot have the argument both ways, bub, you get one or the other.

Can you establish orbital superiority before establishing air superiority? Assuming equally-matched opponents, no. Control of the anti-orbital defenses of the planet must be achieved first.
Can you establish orbital superiority *after* establishing air superiority? Yes, quite easily.

 Psienesis wrote:
Yes, actually. That is *precisely* how the Imperium works, following the events of the Horus Heresy. The Imperial Navy has NO CAPABILITY of prosecuting a war on a planet's surface. None.

Look at Forge World under imperial navy. You will find ground attack and landing craft.


All Imperial air forces come under the direct command of the Imperial Navy and not the Imperial Guard. These aircraft are able to provide the ground troops with much appreciated aerial support. Imperial Guard commanders are able to contact Lightning Strike Fighters to sweep in and break up enemy armoured formations, or to have the Marauder Bomber eliminate enemy fortifications.

You mean the Lightning, Marauder and the Thunderbolt? Useless (or just suicidal) without ground forces to take out the anti-air defenses first. That's a support operation for the Navy. It's what they do.

ground defences are not counted when talking air superiority. And thats why if you hold the orbit you hold the skies.

If you hold the orbit you obviously have ground forces being deployed. Ground forces work with the navy to take out tough spots. That is only able to be done when air space is held, which can only be done when the orbit is held.

As I already pointed out to you... no you don't.

You don't rule space until you rule enough of the ground that you can keep up with the rotation of the planet to not get your belly shot out of you.

If the air space is not held, then deploying ground forces (or the support aircraft) is often suicidal, especially if going against something that has a lot of air support present.

This is what Space Marines or Elysian Drop-Troops are for. Send them down in small bursts (Strike Cruiser flies up, fires its pods, gets the hell out of there) to take out key installations (air fields, ion cannons, surface-to-space missile batteries, turbolasers, whatever) that will then permit the Navy to move in to deploy the IG, their support vessels, all that crap. Now you can begin to establish orbital superiority, but have by no means established air superiority (yet). This is why Space Marines are often the wedge that makes an opening in the enemy for the regular forces of the IoM to fill and widen.

So you cannot start out claiming air superiority with only orbital superiority, because until you have established air superiority, your orbitals are at risk. If your definition of "superiority" is "under no threat from enemy counter-attack", then you *must* establish both ground and air superiority before you can claim orbital superiority.

 Psienesis wrote:
As I already pointed out to you... no you don't.

You don't rule space until you rule enough of the ground that you can keep up with the rotation of the planet to not get your belly shot out of you.

If the air space is not held, then deploying ground forces (or the support aircraft) is often suicidal, especially if going against something that has a lot of air support present.

This is what Space Marines or Elysian Drop-Troops are for. Send them down in small bursts (Strike Cruiser flies up, fires its pods, gets the hell out of there) to take out key installations (air fields, ion cannons, surface-to-space missile batteries, turbolasers, whatever) that will then permit the Navy to move in to deploy the IG, their support vessels, all that crap. Now you can begin to establish orbital superiority, but have by no means established air superiority (yet). This is why Space Marines are often the wedge that makes an opening in the enemy for the regular forces of the IoM to fill and widen.

So you cannot start out claiming air superiority with only orbital superiority, because until you have established air superiority, your orbitals are at risk. If your definition of "superiority" is "under no threat from enemy counter-attack", then you *must* establish both ground and air superiority before you can claim orbital superiority.

Both of which you can only do once space is held. Space held means nothing can hurt you because its yours and its no longer under threat. So if space is held you have air superiority.

Vulgar wrote:
Based off of both croissants and the IA with the Maynark(sp) dynasty, I don't see any race being able to defeat the necrons in the air, let alone anywhere. Maybe the nids could present a tarpit in air, but I just don't see how the crons wouldn't eventually chew through it.

Since the Craftworld Eldar are written to be incompetent at all levels I immediately dismiss them.

Actually, Eldar are (fluffwise at least, and partly ruleswise) unparalleled masters at air combat, with super fast reflexes, unparalleled skill, and powerful vehicles. Eldar are supposed to be better at what they do than almost any others (barring things like really powerful SM, and stuff like that). The most powerful of the eldar (the phoenix lords) could go toe-to-toe with primachs, greater daemons, ect. and have a exelent chance to win (at least if it isn't in a BL novel in which SMs are individually more powerful than all the phoenix lords combined with the avatar of kaine thrown in for good measure). Eldar have lays been better than all of their equivalents, it's just that there are so few of them.

Abaddon doesn't seem to be having problems kicking ass on Cadia, and yet he does not control space.

 Psienesis wrote:
Abaddon doesn't seem to be having problems kicking ass on Cadia, and yet he does not control space.

(i have not read about this battle nor knew it existed until month or so ago) but if his marines dont mind no air support, food or ammo, let alone reinforcements then yea he is doing fine. really. The soldiers trapped in the stalingrad pocket had nearly no chance of surviving or winning because they no longer had air superiority meaning they couldnt get all the supplies they needed so they starved and surrendered. So how does this abbadon guy manage to get the needed resources to fight a war when his men are cut off?

I'd imagine he has his sorcerers open a rift in the Warp and marches supplies and soldiers off the worlds he has waiting in the Eye of Terror. It is what I would do, if I were Abaddon.

However, GW does not comment on such things, so none of us can really say.

 Psienesis wrote:
I'd imagine he has his sorcerers open a rift in the Warp and marches supplies and soldiers off the worlds he has waiting in the Eye of Terror. It is what I would do, if I were Abaddon.

However, GW does not comment on such things, so none of us can really say.

So back to the topic, that does not mean this guy has air superiority. Why because he has no fleet. But all you proved to me was how lame that story is because it has not been thought out at all.

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

Vulgar wrote:
Based off of both croissants and the IA with the Maynark(sp) dynasty, I don't see any race being able to defeat the necrons in the air, let alone anywhere. Maybe the nids could present a tarpit in air, but I just don't see how the crons wouldn't eventually chew through it.

Since the Craftworld Eldar are written to be incompetent at all levels I immediately dismiss them.

Actually, Eldar are (fluffwise at least, and partly ruleswise) unparalleled masters at air combat, with super fast reflexes, unparalleled skill, and powerful vehicles. Eldar are supposed to be better at what they do than almost any others (barring things like really powerful SM, and stuff like that). The most powerful of the eldar (the phoenix lords) could go toe-to-toe with primachs, greater daemons, ect. and have a exelent chance to win (at least if it isn't in a BL novel in which SMs are individually more powerful than all the phoenix lords combined with the avatar of kaine thrown in for good measure). Eldar have lays been better than all of their equivalents, it's just that there are so few of them.

Fluffwise they are written to be arrogant and incompetent. They lose almost every battle. While I think this is just really bad writing/strategy on GW's part, it is the trend. On the PL side, I think PL's direct analogue is a chapter master, not a Primarch. I can't think of a single Primarch that would get taken out by a small group of night lords and a dread. We have Primarch's taking titans on and Jain Zar dies to a meltabomb?

There's a discrepancy here, and I think I realize it, the consistent inconsistency of GW's writing . Should someone who can go toe to toe with a greater daemon be killed by basically the thug SM group? I digress, but I still disagree on all counts

Side note : I don't think this is a BL thing, the last eldar codex is basically "we won, and then we failed because of arrogance", over and over. Kinda sad really. You'd expect a 40 million year old civilization to have some form of their gak together, but not the eldar.

Vulgar wrote:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

Vulgar wrote:
Based off of both croissants and the IA with the Maynark(sp) dynasty, I don't see any race being able to defeat the necrons in the air, let alone anywhere. Maybe the nids could present a tarpit in air, but I just don't see how the crons wouldn't eventually chew through it.

Since the Craftworld Eldar are written to be incompetent at all levels I immediately dismiss them.

Actually, Eldar are (fluffwise at least, and partly ruleswise) unparalleled masters at air combat, with super fast reflexes, unparalleled skill, and powerful vehicles. Eldar are supposed to be better at what they do than almost any others (barring things like really powerful SM, and stuff like that). The most powerful of the eldar (the phoenix lords) could go toe-to-toe with primachs, greater daemons, ect. and have a exelent chance to win (at least if it isn't in a BL novel in which SMs are individually more powerful than all the phoenix lords combined with the avatar of kaine thrown in for good measure). Eldar have lays been better than all of their equivalents, it's just that there are so few of them.

Fluffwise they are written to be arrogant and incompetent. They lose almost every battle. While I think this is just really bad writing/strategy on GW's part, it is the trend. On the PL side, I think PL's direct analogue is a chapter master, not a Primarch. I can't think of a single Primarch that would get taken out by a small group of night lords and a dread. We have Primarch's taking titans on and Jain Zar dies to a meltabomb?

There's a discrepancy here, and I think I realize it, the consistent inconsistency of GW's writing . Should someone who can go toe to toe with a greater daemon be killed by basically the thug SM group? I digress, but I still disagree on all counts

Side note : I don't think this is a BL thing, the last eldar codex is basically "we won, and then we failed because of arrogance", over and over. Kinda sad really. You'd expect a 40 million year old civilization to have some form of their gak together, but not the eldar.

The eldar are very different and odd. For example the imperium has sent HUGE invasion forces at craft worlds only for them to die so quickly nothing is ever heard from them again. Do some reading on the eldar and you will find what you are saying is not the case. They are buy far the most annoying and competent fighting force in my opinion. But yes they are prone to arrogance which is, and always will be their downfall.

 Psienesis wrote:
You mean the Lightning, Marauder and the Thunderbolt? Useless (or just suicidal) without ground forces to take out the anti-air defenses first. That's a support operation for the Navy. It's what they do.

Valkyries and Vendettas are only seconded to the Imperial Guard. Ultimately they are naval assets.

Eldar win lots of battles.

Thing is about Eldar, it counts as 'winning a battle' if the only Eldar presence involved was a single Ranger sniping out the leader of one of two other armies on the planet, giving them advantage and causing one side to win over the other.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Eldar win lots of battles.

Yes, the Eldar win a lot of battles. It's their precious Avatar which never wins. That fluffy laughingstock is GW's punching bag, used to prove the enemy is badass. Just off the top of my head:

1) Marneus Calgar sucker-punches it.
2) Lorgar 'mercy-kills' it during the Horus Heresy.
3) Fulgrim strangles it during the Horus Heresy.
4) ROFL stomped by Carnifexes at Iyanden.
5) A Blood Raven Librarian pawns it on Kronus, and just to rub salt into the wound, has its remains taken away for study.
6) It gets pawned at least twice by Blood Ravens Commander 'Hair Gel' during the Aurelian Crusades.
7) It gets possessed by a Keeper of Secrets (oh the irony) and used to complete the destruction of Craftworld Kher-Ys.

Did I miss anything?

 Admiral Valerian wrote:

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Eldar win lots of battles.

Yes, the Eldar win a lot of battles. It's their precious Avatar which never wins. That fluffy laughingstock is GW's punching bag, used to prove the enemy is badass. Just off the top of my head:

1) Marneus Calgar sucker-punches it.
2) Lorgar 'mercy-kills' it during the Horus Heresy.
3) Fulgrim strangles it during the Horus Heresy.
4) ROFL stomped by Carnifexes at Iyanden.
5) A Blood Raven Librarian pawns it on Kronus, and just to rub salt into the wound, has its remains taken away for study.
6) It gets pawned at least twice by Blood Ravens Commander 'Hair gel' during the Aurelian Crusades.
7) It gets possessed by a Keeper of Secrets (oh the irony) and used to complete the destruction of Craftworld Kher-Ys.

Did I miss anything?

To be fair, DOW was crap in general for the fluff and it's best forgotten as soon as possible, lest any other W40K games get 'brilliant' ideas.

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Admiral Valerian wrote:

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Eldar win lots of battles.

Yes, the Eldar win a lot of battles. It's their precious Avatar which never wins. That fluffy laughingstock is GW's punching bag, used to prove the enemy is badass. Just off the top of my head:

1) Marneus Calgar sucker-punches it.
2) Lorgar 'mercy-kills' it during the Horus Heresy.
3) Fulgrim strangles it during the Horus Heresy.
4) ROFL stomped by Carnifexes at Iyanden.
5) A Blood Raven Librarian pawns it on Kronus, and just to rub salt into the wound, has its remains taken away for study.
6) It gets pawned at least twice by Blood Ravens Commander 'Hair gel' during the Aurelian Crusades.
7) It gets possessed by a Keeper of Secrets (oh the irony) and used to complete the destruction of Craftworld Kher-Ys.

Did I miss anything?

To be fair, DOW was crap in general for the fluff and it's best forgotten as soon as possible, lest any other W40K games get 'brilliant' ideas.

Even if we remove the two DoW references, that's still FIVE examples off the top of my head showing the Avatar getting stomped.

 Admiral Valerian wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:
You mean the Lightning, Marauder and the Thunderbolt? Useless (or just suicidal) without ground forces to take out the anti-air defenses first. That's a support operation for the Navy. It's what they do.

Valkyries and Vendettas are only seconded to the Imperial Guard. Ultimately they are naval assets.

The difference between the Valkyrie and other Navy aircraft is that the Valkyrie is planet-bound and gets permanently attached to storm trooper and drop troop regiments.


I would imagine that air superiority is very closely linked to orbital superiority, at least for the Imperium, as most aircraft are deployed from spaceships.

In a fantasy setting it is impossible to tell whether controlling the space around a planet would give control when inside its atmosphere. It's all down the fictional weapons and capabilities at their disposal.

Does the planet posses weapons to keep spaceships at a capable distance? Does the spaceship have weapons or strike craft that can threaten the planets defense systems or themselves create air superiority?

Fictional universe, with fictional solutions.


As to the OPs question, and using fluff as a basis, Tyrannids seem to be the most capable if they are fighting at full hive fleet strength.
They can literally blanket a planet with spores and flyers and direct them all through shared intelligence. Seems like no contest to me.

 Psienesis wrote:
Abaddon doesn't seem to be having problems kicking ass on Cadia, and yet he does not control space.

He didn't control the space lanes, but he did have orbit around Cadia.