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So my brother is a huge Waac player and prides himself on cheese lists. I just started trolls and this is a summary of every game. He sacs his three point unit to turn into banes, summons six banes within three inches of his caster. If all these stealth weapon masters can't handle something death jack does and if it is in danger he ports it away. Also uses the merc with the grenades.

I hate the idea of list tailoring, but I hate the smug look too. What can I do don't and big trolls just get killed. Someone said grim shuts that down but I don't see how being new. Bomber trolls? Am I just in hard counter to my army he'll?

Banes and goreshade can be a bit tough for a beginner, but we need more information as to what lists you guys are running more precisely. What is your caster, what are you taking, what points is it etc.

Terms like "waac" and "cheese" show you're approaching this from the wrong mindset.

There also isn't anything wrong with building to the matchup, in fact it's something of an expectation in the games overall design (hence the prevalence of multi-list tournaments).

On a very broad level it sounds like he's bringing at lot of banes and then well more banes. These will tend to trade favorably with high-value models and unfavorably with low value models, and really unfavorably with low value models that out-threat them.

However without knowing what models you have available it's hard to say anything too specific.

 Surtur wrote:
Banes and goreshade can be a bit tough for a beginner, but we need more information as to what lists you guys are running more precisely. What is your caster, what are you taking, what points is it etc.

35 to 50 points, should probably practice with less. All I have is doomey with both cards, and madrak. I usually run doomey, mulg, an axer, impaler, pyre troll, the krelstone guys, and some fenblades. He runs goreshade, tons of banes, guys that are super cheap to sac to turn into even more banes, deathjack, the smoke bomb merc, and the solo that starts with a t.

Banes are definitely good but they aren't broken(although their UA is far better than they deserve)


Banes don't like cheap models that can trade favorably in melee. Pyg Burrowers are a nice cheap harrassment unit that also kills stuff.

Fellblades out threat Banes. His Tough will hurt you a lot less than your Tough will hurt him.

Do everything you can to get rid of either UA model. if they go down the unit loses most of their threat. The Bomber can do this pretty well. Toss Snipe on him and throw bombs at the UA and boost any damage roll on the UA. With a 4" AOE you have a very good chance of clipping him.


pGrim's feat will make Banes very slow and easy to kill and he himself can snipe out the Bane UA potentially.

eGrim has Mage Sight and Mortality. Drop Mage Sight on the closest Bane, hit the unit with Mortality, and send in an infantry unit to murder them.


Just don't use melee beasts to kill banes. They eat beasts for breakfast.

He sacs his three point unit to turn into banes

guys that are super cheap to sac to turn into even more banes

Ok. Is he using just one caster? The one that comes with a little thin elf babe? Cause I cannot think of a way to do what you are referring to here.

If he is using Goreshade1, like I suspect, then all he can do is bring in a 6 man unit of banes. Tartarus (big guy, big axe) can create more banes by killing enemy models but not his own troops.

Are you new to trolls or new to the game?

Either way you may want to do lower point values, find others to play with, or simply ask him to "relax" a little bit for a few games so you can get to grips with your army or the game.

I had to do this with my buddy who played MHSF in my second or third game. I barely understood the rules let alone how to deal with them.

And a necrosurgeon can only make Mechanithralls IIRC. She can't make corpses into Banes AFAIK.

Ill have to ask what he does, but he can kill a unit of his with his own guy, and make them into banes. They are super easy to kill so his own guy does it. the whole unit is 3 points, but makes like 10 points of banes.

 Orock wrote:
Ill have to ask what he does, but he can kill a unit of his with his own guy, and make them into banes. They are super easy to kill so his own guy does it. the whole unit is 3 points, but makes like 10 points of banes.

You really might want to rule check what he's doing. I'm no master of Cryx, but I know a guy who spams bane thralls ever so often. The UA can kill stuff to make more, and goreshade has a feat he can only use once per turn to make 6 of them (min unit), but beyond that there isn't a way to do what you're saying. I'm prepared to be wrong, but you gotta treat those damn cryx players with suspicion at all times, ya know?

There are a few different things that might be going on.

Goreshade1 has a feat that simply creates 6 bane thralls.

Goreshade2 has a feat that let's you remove models and replace them with ones that are dead.

He could also be referring to Tartarus, but he only works if he kills enemy models.

The cheap models he is reerring to are probably scrap thralls. I believe you get 3 of them for one point. Or possibly Mechanithralls which are 4 points for 6 models I think.

Anyways, Orock, if you could let us know the list then we can give you much better feedback on how to deal with him. I'm not super familiar with trolls, but I do play Cryx as my main and use a lot of banes.

Ah right, forgot about goreshade2.

Also OP, when he brings things back with gore2 (if that's what he's doing), he can't do anything with them that turn.

But yeah need more info to be certain on this.

Yeah what he is killing is scrap thralls and making them more banes.

 Orock wrote:
Yeah what he is killing is scrap thralls and making them more banes.

He's not making more than have died right? And he's only doing it once per game correct?

 Necroshea wrote:

 Orock wrote:
Yeah what he is killing is scrap thralls and making them more banes.

He's not making more than have died right? And he's only doing it once per game correct?

correct, but 10 low points dudes turning into banes is still nasty

If it is Goreshade2 then he can only bring back banes that have died and return them to their original unit. He cannot create an entirely new unit.

So the key to stopping him is to wipe out all the banes in one turn. If you kill 9 out of 10 then he will just bring them all back. But kill 10 out of 10 and they cannot come back.

Also effects that remove a model from play will stop them as well. I'm not familiar enough with trolls to know what RFP effects they have.

Another option, kill the scrap thralls. They die easily. They are likely in the back so launch AOEs at them or use fast flanking units to get around behind his army.

Last but not least, remember that it is a once a game thing. And you have your own feat as well. Feats are intended to be powerful and possible game changers.

The key to stopping most things in this game is to know how they work and their limitations.

And if you need more help ask away. Though the best possible thing you can do is post your and his complete full lists. Then people should be able to give you much better advice than we are now.

Ok, hold on. I don't play Trolls but I do play Cryx and I'm fairly confused. You've listed the abilities of two different warcasters here: pGoreshade and eGoreshade. It's either one or the other each game; he doesn't get the abilities of both at once. Not to say your brother is outright cheating you, but there's some serious confusion here.

pGoreshade: Feat generates a unit of six Bane Thralls within 3" of the caster; the summoned Bane Thralls can act on the same turn they are created. Has the spell Soul Gate which removes a friendly warrior model from play and relocates a warjack to that spot. If he is keeping Scrap Thralls in the back to do this, he is bouncing Deathjack all the way back to that spot.

While his feat can be bothersome, adding a single, separate unit of six Bane Thralls without a UA isn't usually too much to deal with. Focus on taking down the unit he brought to the table and it should force him to pop the feat early. You can also screen your more valuable units with things like Pygmies or other tarpit units. The Deathjack is scary, but honestly it's mostly wasted on pShade. There isn't much in pGoreshade's spell list that Deathjack is going to cast, so the Necromancy ability is mostly wasted. Shadowmancer can be bothersome, granting DJ both Dark Shroud and Stealth, but the Stealth doesn't matter much since he wants to hit you in melee anyway. Deathjack is a powerhouse, but he's just as fragile as the rest of the Cryx army. Introduce a Mauler or Mulg and there will be a pile of scrap left over. Alternatively, you can just feed it more tarpits. Trolls are full of medium-based units that shrug off trample attempts, so you can just feed DJ a few points of chaff while the rest of your army deals with threats.

eGoreshade: Feat removes X number of friendly faction warrior models from the game, and replaces them with X number of previously destroyed faction warrior models. This does not generate new models, just brings destroyed models back to the table if their unit has not been wiped out. You cannot return models to a unit that has been completely destroyed. The resurrected models activate and move normally, but forfeit action on the turn they are brought back. This also means he cannot bring back solos like Bane Lord Tartarus since his unit was completely destroyed when he was. Eith eShade, all Bane Thralls have the ability to create another Bane Thrall for the unit if they destroy a living warrior model. Note that the newly created Thrall cannot activate that turn so be sure he isn't spawning a never-ending tide of pain. This form of Goreshade does not have any way to teleport a warjack anywhere.

As noted above, the way to deal with eGoreshade's feat is to wipe out the whole unit of Bane Thralls in one go. Alternatively, whittle them down just a little so he doesn't feel it's worth spending his feat and then take them out. This is easiest if he is relying on a single unit of Bane Thralls; if he is running two then you'd have to wipe out both units or he can simply resurrect the dead ones from one unit to join the other. Aim for the banner first if you can; that's what grants them Tough. If I remember correctly, the Bane Thrall UA does not have the rule "Take Up", so if the banner dies it stays dead (pre-feat).

If he makes the mistake of grouping his Scrap Thralls, or having them near his other units, you can pick them off with ranged attacks and they'll explode, often taking out other units with them.

 Kirbinator wrote:
If I remember correctly, the Bane Thrall UA does not have the rule "Take Up", so if the banner dies it stays dead (pre-feat).

This isn't exactly correct. All the Standard Bearers have the rule that if they die within 1" of a grunt of the same unit, then that grunt can be replaced by the standard bearer model.

Ah, there we go. So it's not quite Take Up, but it's close. I know I've caught several opponent with their banner more than an inch away from a grunt; maybe you will too.

There is no possible way to turn friendly Scrap Thralls into friendly Banes. When Scrap Thrallls are disabled, they explode and are Removed from Play.

Bane Lord Tartarus' Death Toll ability specifies "Living Enemy Model" as a target, so this doesn't work.

Goreshade the Bastard can only bring his 6 Banes from using his feat.

Goreshade the Cursed Elite Cadre only triggers on "Living Enemy model" as well.

His Reanimator feat only allows you to sacrifice a model to return a previously destroyed model back into the game.

What the OP is describing is simply not possible with the rules that are available to Cryx.

edit... Neither Goreshade has any spell or ability that allows him to kill his own models and create a Bane.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, the entire idea of WAAC and cheese does not belong in a Warmachine/Hordes discussion.

If you can build a legal list, you take it.
Smart play and taking advantage of openings and mistakes can make up for almost any unequal matchup.


Cryx loves to see Trolls for their low def, but tough and the other defensive buffs can make your stuff stupidly resilient.
Also, remember Mulg's Animus. Casting that close enough to Deathjack or Goreshade means he isn't casting.
DJ wants to eat infantry. Banes want to eat beasts/jacks.
Take those opportunities away in deployment when possible, or with runs.
Use Mulg to smash Deathjack.
Use the Fenns to tie up and kill the Banes.
Run those Fenns upfield, take their Unit Attachment, and use a Stone Scribe Chronicler's Hero's Tragedy story to make him pay for any casualties he causes.
Make sure to get some no-knockdown abilities in place, so when tough works, he has to swing again.

Maybe get some Runeshapers and start lobbing AOE spells at the Banes. Or a Bomber.

If you really want to piss him off, get ahold of eGrissel, Warders, and Tuffalo.
Made me just shake my head when I faced that with my Cryx. Arm was so high, and damn near nothing actually fell down if it tough'd.

 skrulnik wrote:
There is no possible way to turn friendly Scrap Thralls into friendly Banes. When Scrap Thrallls are disabled, they explode and are Removed from Play.

That is not entirely correct, eGoreshade can use his feat to replace destroyed Banes with Scrap Thralls because the Scrap Thralls only explode on Disabled and eGoreshade's feat just removes them from play so they never pass through the Disabled state.

So there is just one way, and it is a Feat.

 skrulnik wrote:
So there is just one way, and it is a Feat.

Yeah, but then it's just trading models in play for ones that died. Not what the OP is describing. I do believe the OP is being heavily cheated upon in his games.

I am pretty new. So I may be remembering him both creating 6 banes out of thin air in one game, and then next game with the feat making the scrap thralls into banes, because he uses just the one model and has both card sets. I probably dident piece together that they were different cards/games until I read this thread a bit.

Either way it looks like I need to start using grimm angus and a troll bomber.

Question, can you pick off specific models in the bane group with ranged? Can I shoot the guy with the tough banner, or will another guy just pick it up. I guess the aoe could kill anyone who the banner can pass off too.

Also I hate the guy with the black cloak and grenades, and the damn ghosts killing off my fenblades who make more ghosts who kill my fenblades.

Also also I hate deathjack.

You always choose the model you're attacking.

The guy with grenades is Gormun Di Wulfe. After he throws a grenade he's very open as it's only a 6 inch range. Most things can walk into melee with him after and shut him down easily.

You need to stop hating things and understand them. It's very easy to blame models when the actual problem is tactical.

Frankly, it doesn't sound like he is using what most people consider the"elite" cryx models. Nor is he likely cheating.

This game highly rewards skill and experience. Which your buddy has and you don't. Play more play multiple opponents get some experience. Play battle box games.

I think it took me 12+ games before I got a win and that was against some one who was almost as new as me. Some people take even longer.

 Orock wrote:
I am pretty new. So I may be remembering him both creating 6 banes out of thin air in one game, and then next game with the feat making the scrap thralls into banes, because he uses just the one model and has both card sets. I probably dident piece together that they were different cards/games until I read this thread a bit.

Ok, I see. So he's playing Goreshade the Bastard some games, and Goreshade the Cursed on others. The Prime and Epic versions of the same character. No biggy there, but they are fairly different casters so a different mindset is needed for each. I can certainly understand the confusion, especially if he's using the same model to represent both.

Question, can you pick off specific models in the bane group with ranged? Can I shoot the guy with the tough banner, or will another guy just pick it up. I guess the aoe could kill anyone who the banner can pass off too.

As mentioned earlier, the banner can be picked up if there is a grunt within 1" of the model with the banner. If it is beyond 1", though, the banner is lost and the whole unit loses Tough. Keep in mind they do have Stealth still, so you'll be relying on AoEs until you're within 5".

Also I hate the guy with the black cloak and grenades, and the damn ghosts killing off my fenblades who make more ghosts who kill my fenblades.

Cloaked guy is Gorman di Wulfe. He is pretty amazing, but dies to a harsh glare once you get within 5" of him or in melee or can throw someone at him.

Also also I hate deathjack.

Deathjack hates being hit. Insert Mauler or Mulg to turn it into scrap.

_________________________________________________________

Are you enjoying the game at all? Just from these posts it seems you're frustrated and confused and have a shaky (at best) understanding of what's going on on your opponent's side of the table. I think a very beneficial thing for you and your brother would be for you both to switch armies and have him walk you through how to use his. That way you'll more readily understand what he's doing and why.

Do you have a Bomber?

If not you should get one. His bombs are pretty powerful. The blast damage will easily kill Gorman and will even kill Banes pretty reliably.

Slap the Impaler's animus on him to increase the range. That will get you a 17" threat on thrown bombs and the Bomber can afford to chuck 2 of them a turn with 2 boosts if needed.

Now if your opponent is really skilled he'll have the Bane UA in the back of the unit to avoid getting them picked out but if you have the opportunity to drop the bombs on them do it. otherwise, you should get at least 2 turns of bomb throwing at a minimum before things get into melee.

Once you've whittled the Banes down you can hit them with your own infantry who should be more numerous at this point. And that's not a favorable trade for the banes.

 Grey Templar wrote:
Do you have a Bomber?

If not you should get one. His bombs are pretty powerful. The blast damage will easily kill Gorman and will even kill Banes pretty reliably.

Slap the Impaler's animus on him to increase the range. That will get you a 17" threat on thrown bombs and the Bomber can afford to chuck 2 of them a turn with 2 boosts if needed.

Now if your opponent is really skilled he'll have the Bane UA in the back of the unit to avoid getting them picked out but if you have the opportunity to drop the bombs on them do it. otherwise, you should get at least 2 turns of bomb throwing at a minimum before things get into melee.

Once you've whittled the Banes down you can hit them with your own infantry who should be more numerous at this point. And that's not a favorable trade for the banes.

yeah I was considering getting a bomber, but haven't seen the stats yet, and I have tried to google him to get a glimpse of his card, but understandably pp censors the info. The set of 2010 cards I have are really missing a lot of the units. and they seem to be spread over multiple books, which is a sneaky trick GW is fond of that I am not falling for again. I was hopeing there was some website with a list of the stats so I would know what purchases are good, but I am at a loss.

Get the bomber. He's a great ranged beast and not too shabby in melee either.

As far as previewing cards, I would recommend getting the Warroom app if you have a device that can get it.

The app is free, faction decks are around $8. This will get you all the cards for that faction that currently exist and any that are released in the future.

It also has a list building and damage tracker feature. You can call up your list and use it instead of the physical cards to reference and mark damage.

The decks on warroom are better than the 2010 faction decks you can physically buy because it has all the cards that exist or ever will exist as long as Mk2 is out.