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I have a ravenwing list that has done extremely poor in the last 5 games. By the end of the first turn more than half my bikes are gone. I always scout them forward to help close the gap for my turn; however, by the time that comes most are dead. I try to hide them behind cover as best I can but doesn't seem to matter. I am having really bad rolls (friends call me deuces for how many 2s I roll) but I still think I should be lasting longer than I am. How might I change up my tactics to help them survive and what some of your strategies for your bike army? thanks.

I like to reserve any I think will be tough to hide. Especially in Hammer and Anvil where they will almost always be in range of something enticing.

Adding Sammael to a normal squad to give them skilled rider helps. As does turbo-boosting against non cover ignoring foes if you don't have a viable first turn target.

I second eldar rain. I reserve everything it possibly can and hide what's left. If I can't scout to LOS blocking terrain or just straight hide them behind it into reserve for outflanking/rolling on.

Look, you admit you roll majority 2's. I don't see how you are supposed to stay alive if you roll 2's on everything. It's like a Riptide rolling only 1's and wondering why he's dying and how he's supposed to survive.

YOU CANNOT SURVIVE IF YOU FAIL ALL YOUR ROLLS. Simple as that.

 Tyberos the Red Wake wrote:
Look, you admit you roll majority 2's. I don't see how you are supposed to stay alive if you roll 2's on everything. It's like a Riptide rolling only 1's and wondering why he's dying and how he's supposed to survive.

YOU CANNOT SURVIVE IF YOU FAIL ALL YOUR ROLLS. Simple as that.

Well this kids a tool. I was also looking for what strats people use. Learn to read kid.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Chancetragedy wrote:I second eldar rain. I reserve everything it possibly can and hide what's left. If I can't scout to LOS blocking terrain or just straight hide them behind it into reserve for outflanking/rolling on.

Eldarain wrote:I like to reserve any I think will be tough to hide. Especially in Hammer and Anvil where they will almost always be in range of something enticing.

Adding Sammael to a normal squad to give them skilled rider helps. As does turbo-boosting against non cover ignoring foes if you don't have a viable first turn target.

I typically run with 3 land speeders, 3 attack bikes, and a butt load of bikes. What do you all normally put in reserve? The only thing I'm worried about is putting things in reserve, having a lot of troops drop first turn, and then not being able to hit hard my first turn (assuming I go second). Thanks for advice.

Libby with power field generator is a good buy for ravenwing

Consider a bastion as well 75 points for a large LOS blocker that you can deploy any where on your table half. Can also add a Coms relay (which does not go on the roof) which would help if you do choose to outflank a large portion of your force.

Don't outflank against Tau with lots of interceptor...

Usefulidiot86 wrote:

 Tyberos the Red Wake wrote:
Look, you admit you roll majority 2's. I don't see how you are supposed to stay alive if you roll 2's on everything. It's like a Riptide rolling only 1's and wondering why he's dying and how he's supposed to survive.

YOU CANNOT SURVIVE IF YOU FAIL ALL YOUR ROLLS. Simple as that.

Well this kids a tool. I was also looking for what strats people use. Learn to read kid.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Chancetragedy wrote:I second eldar rain. I reserve everything it possibly can and hide what's left. If I can't scout to LOS blocking terrain or just straight hide them behind it into reserve for outflanking/rolling on.

Eldarain wrote:I like to reserve any I think will be tough to hide. Especially in Hammer and Anvil where they will almost always be in range of something enticing.

Adding Sammael to a normal squad to give them skilled rider helps. As does turbo-boosting against non cover ignoring foes if you don't have a viable first turn target.

I typically run with 3 land speeders, 3 attack bikes, and a butt load of bikes. What do you all normally put in reserve? The only thing I'm worried about is putting things in reserve, having a lot of troops drop first turn, and then not being able to hit hard my first turn (assuming I go second). Thanks for advice.

My list breaks down like this
Chapter master - on board
Khan - on board(sometimes reserved)
Rune priest - on board
3 bike squads - combat squadded, all but 1 in reserve
5grey hunters - reserved, sometimes on board
2storm talons - reserve
2 thunderfires - on board

That's 12 things that count towards reserves. So I need 6 on the board meaning 3 characters, 1 bike squad, and 2 thunderfires.

I find it reduces options for people and allows me to attack from multiple angles. But I don't play my bikes like a rock like 99% of people I see, I play them like water and always play to the mission instead of trying to beat my opponents over the head. While I probably will never win a major GT I'm 9-3 over the span of 4 smaller tournaments so it's been working pretty well.

...and your chapter master has artificer armor and the EW shield and is riding at the front of the unit?

Then you only need to roll 2s for saves.

Granted, that only saves one biker unit, but if you make it the one on the table...

The same tactcs work without the chapter master. It's a concept that's been proven successful over multiple games/editions/armies. I'm not using the chapter master to tank from the beginning I'm using LOS blocking terrain to not have to tank wounds. Then when the time is right i strike with as much as possible or just keep running around and staying out of range/in combat.

You can focus fire on the Rune priest because he has a lower cover save and he can't Look out sir because it violates the rules of focus fire

Edit:
The rune priest cover save will be lower because the white scars Models have +1 to their jink

Put a 2+ champion in front and if you can, another. I'll tell ya what, 2+/4+ aint no joke on a T5 Bike. Plus they can break off later and club something or what have you separate from the bikes whern they get close.

I have a friend who uses a bike army and although I've beaten him or tied him every time, the fact is, those provide EXCELLENT defensive measures.

well theres something fun you could try. run 2 librarians and allie in tigaurus from marines. roll all on devination and get invsibilty. now your bikes have 2+ cover!

Usefulidiot86 wrote:

 Tyberos the Red Wake wrote:
Look, you admit you roll majority 2's. I don't see how you are supposed to stay alive if you roll 2's on everything. It's like a Riptide rolling only 1's and wondering why he's dying and how he's supposed to survive.

YOU CANNOT SURVIVE IF YOU FAIL ALL YOUR ROLLS. Simple as that.

Well this kids a tool. I was also looking for what strats people use. Learn to read kid.

Repeatedly calling him "kid" and a "tool" for simply stating what you and your friend both agreed on is weak...

black knights are pretty epic, those gernade rounds really help, especially coupled with a dark talon weakening the enemy for combat. and then hitting and running work well to squish up the enemy, my buddy does thaw whole command squad with dakka banner in land raider crusader to give all salvo and it works well for him but too pricy for my blood.

 ninjafiredragon wrote:
roll all on devination and get invsibilty

Invisibility is from telepathy and requires 2 warp charges. However. If you manage to get it - bikes with 2+ cover are somewhat frightening to everything that can't ignore cover and ain't great in mellee. Though it falls apart the moment you meet tau or serpent-spam eldar...or drakes. If you roll 2-s too often just write down what's the exact percent of 2-s you roll and if it's distinctively higher than 1/6 in a few games - change dice. U need to write the EXACT numbers cause it's umie psiche that makes you better remember times when you rolled 1-2 and lost a model than you rolled higher and saved it. Just the same with religious miracles and stuff
To improve durability you can try to make a deathstar with an indep in 2+ armor but it's not cheap and it switches tactics from msu to deathstar. It's worth it sometimes but depends on your playing style. Anywayz it won't hurt putting an indep in 2+ armor in front. U're still having biker indeps, right.

Chancetragedy wrote:

My list breaks down like this
Chapter master - on board
Khan - on board(sometimes reserved)
Rune priest - on board
3 bike squads - combat squadded, all but 1 in reserve
5grey hunters - reserved, sometimes on board
2storm talons - reserve
2 thunderfires - on board

That's 12 things that count towards reserves. So I need 6 on the board meaning 3 characters, 1 bike squad, and 2 thunderfires.

I find it reduces options for people and allows me to attack from multiple angles. But I don't play my bikes like a rock like 99% of people I see, I play them like water and always play to the mission instead of trying to beat my opponents over the head. While I probably will never win a major GT I'm 9-3 over the span of 4 smaller tournaments so it's been working pretty well.

3 HQ's, 8 Troop Choices and 2 TFC does not equal 12, it equals 13.

Not that this changes anything. But it will should you go up 150 points.

 Feasible wrote:

Usefulidiot86 wrote:

 Tyberos the Red Wake wrote:
Look, you admit you roll majority 2's. I don't see how you are supposed to stay alive if you roll 2's on everything. It's like a Riptide rolling only 1's and wondering why he's dying and how he's supposed to survive.

YOU CANNOT SURVIVE IF YOU FAIL ALL YOUR ROLLS. Simple as that.

Well this kids a tool. I was also looking for what strats people use. Learn to read kid.

Repeatedly calling him "kid" and a "tool" for simply stating what you and your friend both agreed on is weak...

This. No biker tactics for you young man. Now go to your room.

 Scipio Africanus wrote:

Chancetragedy wrote:

My list breaks down like this
Chapter master - on board
Khan - on board(sometimes reserved)
Rune priest - on board
3 bike squads - combat squadded, all but 1 in reserve
5grey hunters - reserved, sometimes on board
2storm talons - reserve
2 thunderfires - on board

That's 12 things that count towards reserves. So I need 6 on the board meaning 3 characters, 1 bike squad, and 2 thunderfires.

I find it reduces options for people and allows me to attack from multiple angles. But I don't play my bikes like a rock like 99% of people I see, I play them like water and always play to the mission instead of trying to beat my opponents over the head. While I probably will never win a major GT I'm 9-3 over the span of 4 smaller tournaments so it's been working pretty well.

3 HQ's, 8 Troop Choices and 2 TFC does not equal 12, it equals 13.

Not that this changes anything. But it will should you go up 150 points.

How are you getting 8 troop choices out of what I posted? 3 bike squads combat squadding is 6 troops +1 grey hunter squad is 7 + 3 HQ is 10 +2 TFC is 12. Check your math again?

If you are having difficulty with Heldrakes and armour/ cover ignoring stuff, the PFG libbies are the way to go.

Command squad with 5 men, apothecary and sammael is pretty survivable.

With Ravenwing I wouldn't wish to outflank in most situations, alpha strike is name of the game.

Use cover and don't scout move into too vulnerable positions if you are going 2nd.

Consider a LRC for mobile LoS blocking if you have a board with little cover.

Overall, just keep trying. Some days the dice don't favour you.

Kisada II wrote:
You can focus fire on the Rune priest because he has a lower cover save and he can't Look out sir because it violates the rules of focus fire

Edit:
The rune priest cover save will be lower because the white scars Models have +1 to their jink

Where does it say no LOS on focus fire. Focus Fire determines which models are hit and wounded, but LOS can still be taken same as with precision shots. What focus fire and precision shots do though is force more LOS on those characters creating more opportunities for them to fail.

POKEYtheBIG wrote:

Kisada II wrote:
You can focus fire on the Rune priest because he has a lower cover save and he can't Look out sir because it violates the rules of focus fire

Edit:
The rune priest cover save will be lower because the white scars Models have +1 to their jink

Where does it say no LOS on focus fire. Focus Fire determines which models are hit and wounded, but LOS can still be taken same as with precision shots. What focus fire and precision shots do though is force more LOS on those characters creating more opportunities for them to fail.

It doesn't say it anywhere. Frankly there are more than a few pretty unhelpful, bad, and horribly misinformed posts in this thread.

Another idea I had was taking a librarian and trying for invisibility. When you get it that gives at least one squad 2+ cover while moving. Then put a 2+ save with another squad and you 2 pretty durable squads. Telepathy also gives you hallucination and dominate which can potentially stop something from shooting at you as well.

Umm, page 18
Focus Fire:
"Your opponent can only allocate wounds to models with a cover save equal to or worse than the value stated"

Look out sir says it's a reallocation (last line).

Rune priest on bikes have a 5+ cover save while moving, white scars models have a 4+.

I focus fire on 5+ which hits your Rune Priests only, you call Look out sir and you reallocate to a 4+ cover save which is not allowed.

Not sure why you think that is unhelpful to know, but it will come up if you try to put Rune priests in your white scars biker units and your opponents want them dead. Worse is that Focus Fire doesn't care what your armor save is or if you will even using that cover save. So bolter spam right into those Rune Priests.

Maybe you should also try reading the look "look out sir" on page 16. First, second, and third line. Then follow the steps. You shoot at my bike squad with rune priest focus firing on 5+ You do 5 wounds. All "have" to be allocated to the rune priest instead of directionally, then I throw 5 look out sir dice because absolutely nothing in the rule precludes that because of 40k being a permissive rule set. If I pass them they go into squad members if I fail they stay on the priest. No one is saying it isn't a cute trick. What were saying is it doesn't "stop" look out sir because were given permission to pass the wounds off thanks to page 16. And the unhelpful comment wasn't even directed at you, the comment I directed at you was the "incorrect" comment.

Your allocating the wounds to models with higher cover saves which is focus fire specifically says you cannot.
The rules set is permissive and in this case it is actually spelled out that you cannot do that. Focus doesn't say anything about allocate this way instead of by closest, nor is it like precession shots where it doesn't prevent reallocation. The one and only thing focus fire does is prevent the player being shot from allocating wounds to models with better cover saves.
I only brought it up because it's a tactic that you will see against that list and this is the tactics section.
I know it may feel strange and would understand any house rule that gets around it but that's how it's written

You should take this to YMDC. I'm interested in the general consensus.

Looks like it's already been there:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/30/558306.page#6161113

Didn't realize it was even up for debate, I guess it's up to your play group / Tournament Organizer. I actually wish GW would FAQ it on the side of the look out sir overriding Focus Fire as I play white scars and would love to use some rune priests or a DA libby on a bike in my army but not going to risk it.

Any how back to tactics for keeping bikes alive,
The large bases on bikes lets them spread out well, if there is any line of sight blocking terrain I generally find it worth while to have at least one biker out of position behind the LOS blocker when only shooting (ie not in a position to charge or don't want to). You sacrafice the firepower of one bike but if your opponent decides to hammer on your unit in many cases you'll be able to keep a biker alive. And 1 biker may not sound like much but it's still a scoring unit or a kill point that your opponent didn't get (depending on the mission) and then you can just turbo boast away.

Well this kids a tool. I was also looking for what strats people use. Learn to read kid.

No need to be rude about it. Reread dakkas posting rules please.

 koooaei wrote:

 ninjafiredragon wrote:
roll all on devination and get invsibilty

Invisibility is from telepathy and requires 2 warp charges. However. If you manage to get it - bikes with 2+ cover are somewhat frightening to everything that can't ignore cover and ain't great in mellee. .

lol i always get them mixed up
yes serpent spam and tau is its bane, but its fun when your not facing them

 Ratius wrote:

Well this kids a tool. I was also looking for what strats people use. Learn to read kid.

No need to be rude about it. Reread dakkas posting rules please.

Indeed.

We'll have no more posts or comments like this please.

Kisada II wrote:
Umm, page 18
Focus Fire:
"Your opponent can only allocate wounds to models with a cover save equal to or worse than the value stated"

Look out sir says it's a reallocation (last line).

Rune priest on bikes have a 5+ cover save while moving, white scars models have a 4+.

I focus fire on 5+ which hits your Rune Priests only, you call Look out sir and you reallocate to a 4+ cover save which is not allowed.

Not sure why you think that is unhelpful to know, but it will come up if you try to put Rune priests in your white scars biker units and your opponents want them dead. Worse is that Focus Fire doesn't care what your armor save is or if you will even using that cover save. So bolter spam right into those Rune Priests.

I'm sorry to come back on this, but I just feel that you are terribly misinformed. Are you trying to say Focus Firing ignores armor saves? When your bolter spam wounds are resolved the rune priest and whoever in his unit wounds are LOS'd to would still get their 3+ armor save.