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 Peregrine wrote:

 ImotekhTheStormlord wrote:
Wonder why I tried to play with them in the first place.

So you can't enjoy a game with someone if they'd rather just end the game when it becomes obvious who is going to win (for example, when you're down to a squad of basic guardsmen with half your opponent's army within charge distance next turn) and your goal (which you just openly admitted) is to table them and punish them for bringing a list that you didn't approve of?

Wow, i never thought id see a comment like this from you

Anyways i only allow my opponent to crush me in a situation like above if i feel they deserve it. Otherwise i dont grant them the pleasure. Got to earn it through making a great enjoyable game.

Taking multiples of units is a sound decision when you build an army. Doubling up key units means that if you lose one of them, you have another that can still perform the role, building in redundancy means that your opponent cant kill one unit and scupper your plans.
going beyond simple redundancy is also a sound plan, for example, necrons can form an AV13 wall with multiple ghost arks, Annihilation barges and command barges. This will usually over-stretch your opponents anti tank units and allow whatever units aren't blown to bits to operate effectively.

Where spam becomes an issue in the current game is that certain units are undercosted (or overpowered depending on your perspective) for what they do. this means if you are trying to maximise your points efficiency, you take the undercosted units because they are quite simply, the most bang for your buck. The issue with riptides, wave serpents, wraiths nightscythes etc arent so much that they are spammed, its that for the points you pay the units are overpowered, meaning that while there are alternatives to them, if you are going for the win, you would be foolish not to take them.

I have never encountered a complaint about taking an AV13 Necron wall, i have however on the odd occasion i've tried multiple riptides, encountered a lot of hate, so its clear to me that its not so much the spamming thats the issue, its the spamming of obviously undercosted units. If riptides were 300 points each stock, i doubt there would be so many complaints

 Peregrine wrote:

 ImotekhTheStormlord wrote:
Wonder why I tried to play with them in the first place.

Your goal (which you just openly admitted) is to table them and punish them for bringing a list that you didn't approve of?

I suggest actually reading things you reply too. In no place did I say any of the things you asserted.

All did was announce was a personal preference towards finishing games, while you completely fabricated a list of specifics I 'openly admitted' to in my 12 word post..

You responded with a sarcastic argument against a completely fabricated set of ideas, lift your game, you can do better.

 ImotekhTheStormlord wrote:
I suggest actually reading things you reply too. In no place did I say any of the things you asserted.

No, but that was the context of the comment you replied to: someone claiming that if their opponent brought a titan they'd table them in retaliation and force them to endure the entire process to the very end without conceding. I pointed out that they can't force someone to finish a game with them if that opponent decides to just pack up and end the game when the outcome is obvious.

 Peregrine wrote:

 ImotekhTheStormlord wrote:
I suggest actually reading things you reply too. In no place did I say any of the things you asserted.

No, but that was the context of the comment you replied to: someone claiming that if their opponent brought a titan they'd table them in retaliation and force them to endure the entire process to the very end without conceding. I pointed out that they can't force someone to finish a game with them if that opponent decides to just pack up and end the game when the outcome is obvious.

My reply was to your question, not the issues of tablings and titans. If someone packed up suddenly during a game I would consider it disingenuous.

Do not read more into my statement than exists, especially with wild accusations of 'open admissions'.

Anyone who complains about spam can go feth themselves. I've had people say that they won't play against any list that contains "more than two identical units, including troops."

Uh, bitch, I'm not going to put flamers on my tactical squads. You can deal with it if you don't like 3-6 plasma guns.

 Tyberos the Red Wake wrote:
Anyone who complains about spam can go feth themselves. I've had people say that they won't play against any list that contains "more than two identical units, including troops."

Uh, bitch, I'm not going to put flamers on my tactical squads. You can deal with it if you don't like 3-6 plasma guns.

I see you being just as much of a jerk as the guy you described. He assumed all spam was bad, just like you are assuming any form of anti spam as bad. Gotta take it as it comes. So calm down dude. No one is complaining about plasma guns.

 Jancoran wrote:
exactly


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Experiment 626 wrote:

Davor wrote:

I can't believe a lot of us. Most if not all of us are Geeks and Nerds. Most of us can't play or do good in sports. So we have adapted to be good at playing on the table. So now we have to put restrictions on people how to play a game now. I would love to see us "interneters" go and play a game, and say "you are spamming, can't play this way" or "this team is overpowered, they need to be nerfed."

I take offense to the suggestion that just because we're nerds/geeks the majority of us suck at sports...
I was a high level competitive hockey player, (even received an invite to an open skate with the Brampton Thunder Women's Pro team), while a goodly number of those I've met & known across my years in the hobby include numerous active & former military members, former varsity athletes, active in martial arts, etc...

I wouldn't be surprised if it's more or less an even split between who's excelled at sports and those who simply never had the impulse to pick-up a sport for whatever reason.

Sorry for the off-topic, but my athletic pride is important to me!

I was a three sport athlete and offered a place on the Idaho Vandals Wrestling team. Also got a full ride academic scholarship (which I took instead). I own a business. I play kids games. I'd say the stereotypes are pretty much just that when it comes to gaming. Takes all kinds.

Right on gentlemen. while hardly at your esteemed levels, I played on successful tennis and football programs in high school (offered college spots in both), and played some college athletics too. Coached several programs in both sports, and both played and coached on state tournament qualifying/winning Illinois High School Athletics programs. I think athletes make excellent gamers (good at sacrificing for the greater good, better understanding of sportsmanship), and while in my younger years is was pretty shocking that a moderately successful athlete would also wargame, now (15 years down the road) its becoming more and more common.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Back OT: more than 3 of something kinda enters the spam zone... but what it is matters (6 riptides = spam, and yes, you can do it.... while 6 rhinos, not so bad).

 Swastakowey wrote:

 Tyberos the Red Wake wrote:
Anyone who complains about spam can go feth themselves. I've had people say that they won't play against any list that contains "more than two identical units, including troops."

Uh, bitch, I'm not going to put flamers on my tactical squads. You can deal with it if you don't like 3-6 plasma guns.

I see you being just as much of a jerk as the guy you described. He assumed all spam was bad, just like you are assuming any form of anti spam as bad. Gotta take it as it comes. So calm down dude. No one is complaining about plasma guns.

The difference is I don't claim some kind of arbitrary moral high ground.

 Tyberos the Red Wake wrote:

 Swastakowey wrote:

 Tyberos the Red Wake wrote:
Anyone who complains about spam can go feth themselves. I've had people say that they won't play against any list that contains "more than two identical units, including troops."

Uh, bitch, I'm not going to put flamers on my tactical squads. You can deal with it if you don't like 3-6 plasma guns.

I see you being just as much of a jerk as the guy you described. He assumed all spam was bad, just like you are assuming any form of anti spam as bad. Gotta take it as it comes. So calm down dude. No one is complaining about plasma guns.

The difference is I don't claim some kind of arbitrary moral high ground.

Get a better attitude. It will help you in life and gaming alike .

"arbitrary" is such an abused word, isn't it? =)

Especially when used by a hypocrite.

So I haven't played any 40k in over a month because I decided I didn't like getting tabled by Tau every single time. I don't really care what buzzword or internet speak you use, not getting to play the game you like because your opponents refuse to even the playing field a little is stupid.

I can't afford to run a 2500pt list with fortifications and fliers and all the juicy units. No, I have a battlebox and a couple extra buys, and THAT is what my "meta-game" revolves around. I can jump up and down all day about "spam" or "OP" but at the end of the day the rest of the group is having fun playing vast 3+ hour long games, and I'm at home looking at my piddly army wondering why the hell I even bother. I mean if no one can bother to write a list I might have a hope in hell of beating then why play? I'm not asking for a hand out or for anyone to change the bloody rules, just maybe, maybe, maybe someone could remember that the game is about having a good time, not smashing your opponents face in.

And that's the bloody kicker! I say hey, please lets try to balance our armies against one another, and suddenly I'm a jerk because I'm "looking for advantages"????? So what? I only get to play 40k if I sink another $250 into it so your Riptides have something decent to shoot?

So yeah, you can take your toys and play whatever game you want. Just don't expect anyone else to.

edit: I'm sorry, all I've had to eat today is this lemon square I just ate...

darkcloak wrote:
So I haven't played any 40k in over a month because I decided I didn't like getting tabled by Tau every single time. I don't really care what buzzword or internet speak you use, not getting to play the game you like because your opponents refuse to even the playing field a little is stupid.

I can't afford to run a 2500pt list with fortifications and fliers and all the juicy units. No, I have a battlebox and a couple extra buys, and THAT is what my "meta-game" revolves around. I can jump up and down all day about "spam" or "OP" but at the end of the day the rest of the group is having fun playing vast 3+ hour long games, and I'm at home looking at my piddly army wondering why the hell I even bother. I mean if no one can bother to write a list I might have a hope in hell of beating then why play? I'm not asking for a hand out or for anyone to change the bloody rules, just maybe, maybe, maybe someone could remember that the game is about having a good time, not smashing your opponents face in.

And that's the bloody kicker! I say hey, please lets try to balance our armies against one another, and suddenly I'm a jerk because I'm "looking for advantages"????? So what? I only get to play 40k if I sink another $250 into it so your Riptides have something decent to shoot?

So yeah, you can take your toys and play whatever game you want. Just don't expect anyone else to.

edit: I'm sorry, all I've had to eat today is this lemon square I just ate...

this is why our club made huge changes to our attitudes towards 40k and how to play it. Its fun and fair. Otherwise more people will leave the game.

Ha! Leave the game? I hardly even got into it!

darkcloak wrote:
Ha! Leave the game? I hardly even got into it!

Fair enough. I dont blame you. Your wallet will love you haha

darkcloak wrote:
I can't afford to run a 2500pt list with fortifications and fliers and all the juicy units.

Well, in the end this is a pay-to-win game. You're not guaranteed to win just by spending money on the newest most OP Codex and lots of models but you sure have a lot to choose from in order to get a working list. Trawling ebay (o Dakka's trade forum btw) for good deals can save you some money, but in return costs you time. Often lots of time as ebay auctions take time, you can be outbid and often are unless you have the cash to set ridiculous autobid limits - and if you're that rich you're not buying anything basic from ebay but rare OOP minis.

You can do a few things about it though. Ask the guys to play a few different sorts of games. If you don't have a 2500 force then maybe a 1500? Ask three others to join in for a doubles game, 3K vs 3K where each player on a side brings half of the total. You might not have all the shiny stuff but offer to bring so-and-so many Scoring units so your ally can take more killy stuff instead and you're still worth it for the team.

I'm not that jaded. I have used a very similar Tau list since...well...4th Edition. I finally changed it when Riptides came along because DAMN those models are awesome and they are JUST as awesome in this edition.

My question is this: If I beat you 7 times in a row, with an army you built, would you keep playing? I hope your answer is yes. And I hope one day you get around to WHOOPING my ARSE. But when you're new, thats not going to happen, almost no matter the army. There will be some ties and some hard fought tight losses...and there will be utter blow outs.

When you're new, and dont have a lot of toys, spam means nothing. True. But NO hobby has a justifiable cost. None. Car hobbyists can tell you: Warhammer aint nothing. My aunt has a sewing room whose cost would put my Warhammer collection to shame over time.

I think you gotta remember that the hobby isn't JUST the playing, its also collecting, which helps you play more ideas.

Fall in love with the idea of the battle and maybe dont worry so much about winning. And more importantly, get creative. Ask them to switch armies, so you can play their army. You will learn what it fears a lot faster and more intimately once you do. Its fun and it will put them a mile in your shoes.

When de released the venom, I built the ever classic "venom spam" army, and won something like 30 games in a row with it. Eventually people asked I not take that list, as it was too hard to play against.

My response, was no its not, if you actually build a list to counter the transports. I then literally showed this. - even going as far as to play a challenge game on vassal.

When I explained the list, and it's weakness, to my sm playing buddie, we hashed out a list, played and he lost. When we swapped sides, I beat him again. The point here, is I find people call spam, or cheese when they can't beat something. When a unit is good, and people use it well this means spam. Heck, a dual riptide list is being called spam now, and it's only 2 models. Tell these so called people to maybe learn the game, learn thier armies, and develop some tatical thinking skills - and maybe they might win a game. Rushing straight forward and shooting the closest rarely works, and I have and have seen many games won by sheer tatical use of terrain, then I can count. Spam has nothing to do with it.

I was told I am spaming vets and vendettas in 1k points , when I had 1(one) vendetta and 2 squads of veterans one in a chimera and the other one in the vendetta.
Spam is a losers way reacting to him being unable to cope with his losing , his lack of skills and a bad list and puting th blame for his short comings on another person , so he can keep feeling good about himself.

 Jancoran wrote:

Spoiler:

I'm not that jaded. I have used a very similar Tau list since...well...4th Edition. I finally changed it when Riptides came along because DAMN those models are awesome and they are JUST as awesome in this edition.

My question is this: If I beat you 7 times in a row, with an army you built, would you keep playing? I hope your answer is yes. And I hope one day you get around to WHOOPING my ARSE. But when you're new, thats not going to happen, almost no matter the army. There will be some ties and some hard fought tight losses...and there will be utter blow outs.

When you're new, and dont have a lot of toys, spam means nothing. True. But NO hobby has a justifiable cost. None. Car hobbyists can tell you: Warhammer aint nothing. My aunt has a sewing room whose cost would put my Warhammer collection to shame over time.

I think you gotta remember that the hobby isn't JUST the playing, its also collecting, which helps you play more ideas.

Fall in love with the idea of the battle and maybe dont worry so much about winning. And more importantly, get creative. Ask them to switch armies, so you can play their army. You will learn what it fears a lot faster and more intimately once you do. Its fun and it will put them a mile in your shoes.

I've run Wave Serpents since I had to spend $50-60 each from Forgeworld and they were mediocre. I find it funny when I've been playing some of the same people since 3rd Edition and even though I've always fielded 3 Serpents in my list, suddenly in 6th Edition I'm building my list off of the net. :-P

No one EVER calls my lists spam, nor do they even seem to approve most of the time. I have a reputation for playing lists that aren't "optimal" in the internets eyes. And when I stop winning that way, I will be happy to re-look at the matter. But I play a guy whose definitely a chameleon. He's adjusted his list and "tuned" it. It is no a 6 hull mech eldar army. It's very powerful. 2 units of 8 Warp Spiders accompany them and distract the enemy from killing the hulls. His troops, though you'd love nothing more than to kill them and fast, are reserved, which I taught him to do. Once they are there, you are already committed in a life or death struggle with his Spiders. When you can actually go after troops, its pretty late in the game. His tactics are sound and he knows ME well enough to watch out for my tricks. He went from always losing...like always... to occassionally winning now because he slowly morphed his list to suit his meta and didn't keep trying to stick a square peg in a round hole. I daresay now he can compete with anyone. But to do that he had to be a little more committed to the hobby, he DID have to spend a few bucks at a time (he spent like $60 a month to kind of get himself in good shape over time) and now I'd pit him against anyone. He wont likely need to change his list much over time since it is tactically solid. His Crimson Hunter is great too and fills the anti-air gap. His list is perfect for HOW he fights and it will handle terrain nicely.

So be of good cheer. the learning curve is the fun part.

But definitely ask to swap armies once in a while. It really IS educational.

Wouldn't you worry about your models being handled by someone else . They aren't his so he may as well dmg the paint job or break them , even accidently .

Nope. He runs the same risk on my side of the table. Will we really be careless knowing that?

Yes. because if he runs something like a raver he will never do a switch . He would do a switch , if he doesn't care about his army [all plastic or cast] . Plus all good armies don't realy move many models and have big single units that aren't hard to place like wave serpents or riptides . if someone who doesn't play IG normaly suddenly has to move 40+models in one unit he may get the urge to move them not model by model , but just push them 6" and then try to spread.

But making someone switch an army would be impossible anyway . If he wins , he has a good army and you have a bad one . Why would he want to play with a bad army against his good one ? to prove that his is better ? he already did that and if he is from a different core group.

I've been working on a "very redundant list" myself. My Imperial Fist army currently has 5 dreadnaughts. I don't think most people would put that in the same category as 3 riptides, in fact, they're more likely to laugh. But I intend to ally with Iron hands and get even more dreds to try it out. Spamming? Absolutely. Over powered? Highly doubt it.

Also, with my Sisters of Battle Army, I'll be getting another exorcist for a total of 3. Some would consider that spamming. I consider it a lack of options from the codex.

If you run 3 riptides, find players that want to play that kind of game and have fun, but realistically you have to realize that not everyone will want to play against that and wouldn't consider it fun at all. Neither are wrong, they just have different expectations for the game.

Spam is too much of a good thing. It's making the most competitive list possible because people hate losing. It sounds like you group wants to get some causal play in, meaning that if you bring a competitive list full of overpowered or undercosted units (60" range melta? wtf Tau?) take a few unit that while not bad per say are not uber competitive. In Orks for example taking a few fewer Lootas makes for a less competitive but more casual army. So if you take a few lesser used units to balance out some of the stronger units then it'll make a the game a little more fun for everyone.

I could tell you a thing or two about painting and modelling, I used to have walls full of of 1/24th scale cars and some of those suckers you could even read the speedometers, so I know what it takes to be dedicated to a hobby. Sadly however that was when I was a kid and had time to spare. A few bad girlfriends will knock out your collectibles and cool t-shirt supply pretty fast too, as it turns out.

But whatever, I don't really give a hoot about that. What is really irking me is the stonewall resistance to the idea that people can and do "min max" or whatever you call it and that it's probably not acceptable in a friendly game. In D&D we called that sort of character building "munchkin" and yeah it was fun for a bit, but just like anything else, having your success handed to you on a platter isn't all that rewarding.

Okay lets build a list that "competes" against a "Triptide List" ...

...

3 other Riptides. With whatever crap you have to take to get them on the table, Unit 1 through 6, who cares. Bam done. Ready to "compete".

You know I think that a lot of people end up on here trying to describe an event that has taken place and they come up with Topics like this one "When does it become spam?" and they try to hash out an answer to take back to the table and resolve their crap. I don't think it works very well though.

All I'm sayin' is I tried to get my gaming "friends" to lighten up on me, cuz yeah I'm a noob, and now I'm ostracized from playing because: There Is No Spam, You Just Suck Or Are Poor.

So I'll just hang out and write epic length forum quick comments, paint a shoulder pad here and there and wait for the day when I meet someone who wants to learn how to play 40k. By then I shall have a vast horde of whatever models the fanboys post on ebay. I shall use them to mercilessly beat my noob victim/friend into the ground until they too are a cranky hermit lunatic with multicoloured fingertips with a lot of plastic toys.