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So the "supporting wave" at the DSM, were the night lords, iron warriors, alphas, and word bearers.

This is what doesn't make sense to me, the night lords. At this point; hasn't Kurze already beat down Dorn, destroyed nostromo, and been "on the run"?

Or do I have the non existent timeline incorrect?

You might have the time line off, I don't know.

However, just because Kurze has gone renegade doesn't mean all the Night Lords have. The ones sent down to the Dropsite to be Massacred are the ones that Horus thought would be too stubbornly loyal to the Emperor to ever turn traitor, after all.

You are correct and this has always bugged me too. Of the 4 legions sent we have the Night Lords, who have gone rogue, The Alpha Legion, who nobody trusted that much anyway, and the Word Bearers, who had been slapped for misbehaviour before. The only one I can forgive for not being suspected was Perturabo as the massacre of Olympia was not common knowlege yet.

I also find it strange that the destruction of Nostromo is not mentioned by literally anyone, outside of the Dark King story, It can't have been unnoticed because of warp communication problems because Dorn actually went home to Terra. Why is it that the Wolves were unleashed against Magnus (for breaking an edict) when the Night Lords have massacred an Imperial world, surely Russ should have been sent to take out Curze straight away.

Dorn is actually the one who supposedly sent out the call to smack down Horus on Istvaan so he is obviously a brain dead moron for accepting help from his murderous, unstable brother. This isn't even a symptom of a bloated series outgrowing it'self. The DS massacre was in book 5 and the Dark King was released around the same time. When Angron got a bit too out of hand just before the Heresy, Malcador had someone send Fulgrim to go tell Horus to sort him out, when Magnus broke the rules he was crushed almost immediately. I can't understand why literally nothing was done about Curze.

Time line wise it would have made far more sense for Curze to join Horus AFTER hearing about Istvaan and then flocking to his banner. Or at least during, as like a surprise appearance. I mean, the Sons of Horus and Emperor's Children were counted among the most loyal of the Legions and yet had just gone traitor, and yet they send the black sheep of the family, who has never seemed to pay attention to the imperial creed, to bring them to heel. I love the series but I'm having to just pretend more and more details don't exist just to have it make sense.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Furyou, you have your Istvaans confused. The purging of the loyal elements of the Traitor legions happened on Istvaan 3, several months before the DSM. No Night Lords were present at Istvaan 3. As far as we know so far all of the NLs went renegade, they were mostly all murderers and rapists pre-recruitment into the Legion, hence why Curze bombed Nostramo. Similarly, all the Alphas turned, The Word Bearers all went over about 40 years before the Heresy, although elements that were considered to be "lacking vision" had purposely been used in high attrition wars by Lorgar for decades, to ensure that only the ones who would follow his vision remained for the end game. Not all of the Iron Warriors turned but I don't think they managed to wipe the Loyalists out in one move because there is at least one alive in Unremembered Empire.

I see your point on the handling of Kurze VS Lorgar, but I've always read that the motivation for looking into Lorgar was his lack of progress, IE slow conquering. That wouldn't be the case with Kurze. "He's nuts but at least he gets s*** done". type of thing.

It seems obvious to me a certain level of depravity was accepted in the face of progress. Angron, arguably Russ, Dorn...so on and so forth.

Who left worlds in better shape some of the time? Seems like only Guilliman and Lorgar would contend for that spot. Kind of ironic eh.

Possibly Magnus? In A Thousand Sons, he seems pretty distraught that Russ is shattering the beautiful buildings and the Word Bearers are burning the libraries on Shrike.

Vulkan also seemed like more of an artistic builder with a lot of empathy and compassion for the common man.

Before he went all Dorian Grey, Fulgrim was actually quite a fan of the arts and preserving human achievement. Before the Eldar attacked him, he actually decided to not only not settle (and therefore spoil) the crone worlds he finds, but he strikes them from Imperial records so they will be forever preserved...of course then he virus bombs them all out of spite when he realises how much they mean to the Eldar :p

Solid points. TY

I also have the same problem with understanding why Dorn would trust the Night Lords to take part in the mission, seeing as how they had been on the run from reprisal since the destruction of Nostramo. So how they were contacted is also a bit of a mystery. I guess word could have reached them of what the situation was, but then why would Dorn include them if they were about to be called to heel by the Emperor.

The best explanation, provided by Manchu, is that the situation was so dire that they had to be included to ensure that the rebellion was put down. But I still find it a bit hard to belieb.

Fulgrim openly admits to Ferrus that Lorgar is with them but Ferrus doesn't think anything of it when they are included in the attack.

At a time when all loyalty should be questioned it seems strange that there weren't any asked. Which is why the Thousand Sons situation is quite galling, no one thought to investigate what Magnus actually said and even Russ had prior warning to this from one of his own Wolves.

The Heresy could have been prevented or it's devastation at least reduced if someone would have taken the initiative and did some research.

Here is one of the problems of putting vague myth and legend into a large series of detailed books.

The basic facts of the heresy have been established for a long time. certain primarchs have to turn to chaos regardless of reasons, certain legions have to be in certain places, at certain times doing certain things, no matter how illogical it might seem.

Check out The First Heretic. While it's true that the Word Bearers had been chastised previously, it had been over fifty years prior, and since then, as far as the rest of the galaxy knew, the Word Bearers had been the paragon of a SM legion. There was no reason to suspect treachery from them.

While the other three might not have been optimal choices, they were the only options. Lorgar (and more importantly, his advisors) had arranged it so that the other traitor legions would be the only available backup for the Isstvaan V assault.

machineuk wrote:
Here is one of the problems of putting vague myth and legend into a large series of detailed books.

The basic facts of the heresy have been established for a long time. certain primarchs have to turn to chaos regardless of reasons, certain legions have to be in certain places, at certain times doing certain things, no matter how illogical it might seem.

Better writing would help.

It's Black Library. Well-done pulpy sci-fi is about the best one can hope for from it. This is not Steinbeck or Vonnegut we're talking about.

 Pilau Rice wrote:
The best explanation, provided by Manchu, is that the situation was so dire that they had to be included to ensure that the rebellion was put down. But I still find it a bit hard to belieb.

Oh you better belieb it.



As when the WE were first chastised, long before the Heresy, the NL at this point had not really done anything explicitly traitorous. Or at least that was the case when I last talked about this. Since then, the HH series has become a primarch soap opera with Kurze in particular cast as a drama lama.


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 Pilau Rice wrote:
Which is why the Thousand Sons situation is quite galling

Ehhhhh, kind of apples and oranges there. The issue with Magnus wasn't a question of loyalty in the same sense as the HH proper. Rather, Magnus had royally fethed the Emperor's plans concerning the Golden Throne ... which, and it's only fair to bring this up each time, may very well have meant bad times for Magnus anyway. As in, the Emperor was going to strap him into the "time out chair."

I think I read somewhere that Dorn wasn´t happy with Curze offering his help. He asked for caution using astropaths but Ferrus was enraged and attacked as soon as possible.

This is from Horus Heresy Book 2 Massacre, page 98: "When forces were assembled to strike against Horus (…), there were many who were surprised to learn that the Night Lords had answered the call. For years the VIIIth had existed on the border between sanction and censure, fighting its own wars of terror like shadows within the forces of the Great Crusade. Such was the desperate spirit of those times that few questioned Curze´s aid, and those who did perhaps remembered the Night Lord´s need to punish those who strayed from the light."

What I don´t get is why Perturabo was so sure about he being punished after Olympia´s genocide (5 million dead, planet taken) but Curze was allowed to do as he pleased.

machineuk wrote:
Here is one of the problems of putting vague myth and legend into a large series of detailed books.

^This. It worked far better as a legend.

It's a different site, and not like some canon (lol) source, but check this out - http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/222664-horus-heresy-timeline/

I want GW/BL to provide this.

At the time of the DSM, only Horus, Fulgrim, Mortarion and Angron's forces had openly declared rebellion. The WB and IW were rebels but under secrecy for an ambush. The AL were apparently being bad to be good or something but anyway, were on their side. Horus' that is.

Kurze had beaten Dorn and was going to be censured along with the Night \lords for violent conduct but the Heresy broke out and they were called on anywhere. Every bolter counts and all that. But they saw a chance for escape from the Imperium and sided with Horus in secret.

It is stated in "Angel Exterminatus" that Perturabo was sure that he would never be forgiven because he had just got the news that Russ had been unleashed on Prospero. In his mind, if the great and wise Magnus, who had far more close brothers than Perturabo, could be crushed so utterly for a mistake (that he had no idea of the greater consequence of) then what chance did he have of forgiveness.
Also bear in mind, Horus was the one telling him this, and offering a hand in friendship to a Primarch who had be so typically shunned by the others.

I get the "Every Bolter counts" argument, but let's be realistic, if someone is always on the fringe of rebellion themselves, you want them close, not sent to the end of the galaxy to quell an existing rebellion. Maybe if another Primarch sent him it would make sense, but it was specifically Dorn who had requested that Curze be censured.

Also as the series goes on I find it amusing how naive the Luna Wolves now seem at the beginning. When Jubal is possed, Loken cannot believe that an Astartes has killed on of his own, it is unthinkable and theoretically impossible. And yet so far we have two legions that were wiped out for unknown reasons, Russ and Angron were in a bloody, violent battle that saw many Marines dead. Lorgar beat down Guilliman, Curze nearly killed Dorn, then murdered several Pheonix Guard and Imperial Fists. It seems to me that it would be more surprising that the Heresy didn't happen much sooner. Half the Legions seem to hate each other and at at least 2 Primarch's were openly scornful of the "Imperial Truth" and just used the Crusade as an excuse to kill. Curze never belived that mankind deserved to be saved, just to be repressed. And Angron didn't care if the Imperium ever succeeded, he just killed because he was told to kill and he knew nothing else.

Manchu wrote:
Oh you better belieb it.

You are evil.

 Psienesis wrote:
It's Black Library. Well-done pulpy sci-fi is about the best one can hope for from it. This is not Steinbeck or Vonnegut we're talking about.

True, but we should be able to expect a little consistency in the quality and events that happen.

Manchu wrote:


As when the WE were first chastised, long before the Heresy, the NL at this point had not really done anything explicitly traitorous. Or at least that was the case when I last talked about this. Since then, the HH series has become a primarch soap opera with Kurze in particular cast as a drama lama.

Cheraut and the destruction of Nostramo was supposed to be long ago, how long ago we don't know, but long enough for the Night Lords to do nasty things to planets in the name of the Imperium.

Manchu wrote:

 Pilau Rice wrote:
Which is why the Thousand Sons situation is quite galling

Ehhhhh, kind of apples and oranges there. The issue with Magnus wasn't a question of loyalty in the same sense as the HH proper. Rather, Magnus had royally fethed the Emperor's plans concerning the Golden Throne ... which, and it's only fair to bring this up each time, may very well have meant bad times for Magnus anyway. As in, the Emperor was going to strap him into the "time out chair."

 KorPhaeron77 wrote:
(...)
Also as the series goes on I find it amusing how naive the Luna Wolves now seem at the beginning. When Jubal is possed, Loken cannot believe that an Astartes has killed on of his own, it is unthinkable and theoretically impossible. And yet so far we have two legions that were wiped out for unknown reasons, Russ and Angron were in a bloody, violent battle that saw many Marines dead. Lorgar beat down Guilliman, Curze nearly killed Dorn, then murdered several Pheonix Guard and Imperial Fists. It seems to me that it would be more surprising that the Heresy didn't happen much sooner. Half the Legions seem to hate each other and at at least 2 Primarch's were openly scornful of the "Imperial Truth" and just used the Crusade as an excuse to kill. Curze never belived that mankind deserved to be saved, just to be repressed. And Angron didn't care if the Imperium ever succeeded, he just killed because he was told to kill and he knew nothing else.

Yes, that bugs me too.

@Pilau Rice: you are welcome. Both Forgeworld HH books are really good.

Of course they are -- Alan Bligh wrote them!

Manchu wrote:
Of course they are -- Alan Bligh wrote them!

They really are what I would have hoped the heresy series would have been like.

Hopefully he does a HH Encyclopedia

 da001 wrote:

 KorPhaeron77 wrote:
(...)
Also as the series goes on I find it amusing how naive the Luna Wolves now seem at the beginning. When Jubal is possed, Loken cannot believe that an Astartes has killed on of his own, it is unthinkable and theoretically impossible. And yet so far we have two legions that were wiped out for unknown reasons, Russ and Angron were in a bloody, violent battle that saw many Marines dead. Lorgar beat down Guilliman, Curze nearly killed Dorn, then murdered several Pheonix Guard and Imperial Fists. It seems to me that it would be more surprising that the Heresy didn't happen much sooner. Half the Legions seem to hate each other and at at least 2 Primarch's were openly scornful of the "Imperial Truth" and just used the Crusade as an excuse to kill. Curze never belived that mankind deserved to be saved, just to be repressed. And Angron didn't care if the Imperium ever succeeded, he just killed because he was told to kill and he knew nothing else.

Yes, that bugs me too.

@Pilau Rice: you are welcome. Both Forgeworld HH books are really good.

Foreshadowing. That's all it is. The only events that happened prior to Horus Rising were the destruction of the 2 legions (very hush-hush, hear no evil, see no evil, speak no evil kind of thing) and the battle between Russ and Angron, which was not added in until Betrayer, Book 24. Horus Rising is Book 1. Retconned in.

The others happened chronologically after that incident. All it was was a bit of foreshadowing. Same as when Abnett says describes Abaddon's black Cataphractii Plate as like "he was from another, black legion."

I haven't read HH:2 yet, but HH:1 felt as if Bligh actually created a timeline of events and did what he could to coerce the BL books into an actual story you could follow. After I read it, I made the conscious decision that I wouldn't read another BL book on the subject. His stuff is far better than what they've produced.

It really seems that the BL authors started with a timeline of events very early on in the series but quickly abandoned it. I'm not sure why they did or even if it was a conscious decision but at this point there are so many plot holes, timeline issues and general shenanigans with who is where doing what when that it's pretty much a complete cluster f*.

At this point I think they just need to stop and wait for Bligh to complete his work. Once that is done then let the regular authors go back and expand on the details. And, no, I do NOT subscribe to the idea that all of the books are just "points of view" which may be wrong as a means of keeping them together. Yes, it's a large story but with a solid plan it is pretty easy to take a large story and allow 100s of books to be written about it without having a mess like this.

I´ve never think about this issue, but... by the Emperor, you are right, the NL were on the run before the drop site massacre!!!
Well, I believe this kin of things happen when you have many authors writing on the same issue. You may ask Marvel about it, jejeje.
In my opinion, as any universe became more and more complex, more the storyline mistakes appears. Its very dificult to mantain coherence between many books, comics or movies. Just enjoy the background!!! years ago we had 1% of what we have now....