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Heyo,

Pretty simple question, but I wanted to make sure since the rulebook FAQ doesn't clear it up.

A Riptide with the Earth Caste Array gets to re-roll 1s when shooting.

The Blast special rule has this to say:

"BLAST WEAPONS AND RE-ROLLS
If a model has the ability to re-roll its rolls to hit and chooses to do so after firing a Blast weapon, the player must re-roll both the scatter dice and the 2d6"

Does being able to re-roll 1s constitute "the ability to re-roll its rolls to hit" for this purpose? Or would I need something that gave me re-rolls unconditional of what I actually rolled on the dice?

Sorry if this question has been asked many times before, I checked the front page of YMDC and couldn't see anything on it.

Thanks for your help!

 Dr. Delorean wrote:
Does being able to re-roll 1s constitute "the ability to re-roll its rolls to hit" for this purpose?

Maybe: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/536939.page

Yes; the requirement is to have an ability to Reroll to hit, with no further distinction on "how much" of a Reroll you need to have. This is RAW
disagreement in that thread had no rules basis for the disagreement, as it relies on putting conditionals on the need to be able to Reroll that don't exist in the written rules.

As you can see from previous threads, it is debated and seems to be centered around one question:
When do you gain the ability to Re-roll with Preferred Enemy or the likes; is it always granted because it is a 're-roll ability' or is it granted only on a To Hit Roll of 1, which is not possible with Scatter?

you have permission to reroll ones,


vs

you have permission to re roll to hit


you require rerolls to HIT to re roll scater dice,

being able to re roll ones, is not the same thing at all, claiming it is is not RAW, because you have now chainged the RAW from "re rolls to hit" to "re rolls 1's"


two different things, equating them is false, so is saying "meh close enough"


you need the word for word rules, "close enough" is most certainly not close enough in this case.

it is literally the equivelent of someone using permision to re roll 1's, as permission to re roll all hits.

you wouldnt allow a "re roll 1's" model to re roll all hits would you?

why is that?

oh they are not the same?

well thats correct, they are not the same, so things that apply to one, do not carry over to the other

 easysauce wrote:
being able to re roll ones, is not the same thing at all, claiming it is is not RAW, because you have now chainged the RAW from "re rolls to hit" to "re rolls 1's"

p40 wrote:A unit that contains at least one model with this special rule re-rolls failed To Hit and To Wound rolls of 1 if attacking its Preferred Enemy.

It's easy to show an argument is wrong when you misstate the rule.
The rule is not "re roll 1s". The rule is "re-rolls failed To Hit and To Wound rolls". The fact that they must be a 1 is irrelevant to the actual Blast rules.

 easysauce wrote:

it is literally the equivelent of someone using permision to re roll 1's, as permission to re roll all hits.

you wouldnt allow a "re roll 1's" model to re roll all hits would you?

Well, ignoring the tone of your post, if the model is BS5 then re-rolling 1's to hit IS re-rolling every failed roll to hit.

Earth Caste Piloting Array allows re-rolls of 1s to hit. This means that Gets Hot! special rule will be allowed a re-roll for the Ion Accelerator or HBC.

The EPCA does not let your re-roll scatter.

For LBT and SBT, If the model has the ability to re-roll it's rolls to hit, then it may do. BRB pg. 33

AnonAmbientLight wrote:
Earth Caste Piloting Array allows re-rolls of 1s to hit. This means that Gets Hot! special rule will be allowed a re-roll for the Ion Accelerator or HBC.

The EPCA does not let your re-roll scatter.

If the model has the ability to re-roll it's rolls to hit, then it may do. BRB pg. 33

So the ECPA does not grant a reroll to hit ever?

rigeld2 wrote:

AnonAmbientLight wrote:
Earth Caste Piloting Array allows re-rolls of 1s to hit. This means that Gets Hot! special rule will be allowed a re-roll for the Ion Accelerator or HBC.

The EPCA does not let your re-roll scatter.

If the model has the ability to re-roll it's rolls to hit, then it may do. BRB pg. 33

So the ECPA does not grant a reroll to hit ever?

On 1s. The OP's original question was in regards to the LBT of the Ion Accelerator, which is what i was answering.

I also had to clarify my last post because i wasn't clear on the last paragraph as well. Sorry. -.-

Your post still includes the line:

The EPCA does not let your re-roll scatter.

The ECPA does allow a re-roll to hit, and since the blast rules on page 33 allow you to re-roll scatter if you are allowed to re-roll to hit, your statement is incorrect.

rigeld2 wrote:
Your post still includes the line:

The EPCA does not let your re-roll scatter.

The ECPA does allow a re-roll to hit, and since the blast rules on page 33 allow you to re-roll scatter if you are allowed to re-roll to hit, your statement is incorrect.

Read the first line of my first post guy. ECPA allows re-rolls of 1s.

Attention needs to be paid to the wording of the two re-roll mechanics in the game, especially Tau. For example, Shadowsun has a drone that allows re-rolls on 1's. The Tau signature system Multi-spectrum Sensor Suite (M3S) allows re-rolls of misses. Both function completely different. If i were to put the M3S on a commander, and join it to a crisis suit that has the air-burst fragmentation weapon, (LBT) then that crisis suit could re-roll the template per the rules on BRB pg 33.

Think of it like the FnP special rule.

I'm well aware of what the ECPA does.
Your statement is that it does not allow re-rolls to Hit (by saying it does not qualify for the blast allowance).
So what happens when you roll a 1? You stare at the die and pretend?

rigeld2 wrote:
I'm well aware of what the ECPA does.
Your statement is that it does not allow re-rolls to Hit (by saying it does not qualify for the blast allowance).
So what happens when you roll a 1? You stare at the die and pretend?

How do you get a 1 on 2D6? And if you did, why would you re-roll it?

AnonAmbientLight wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
I'm well aware of what the ECPA does.
Your statement is that it does not allow re-rolls to Hit (by saying it does not qualify for the blast allowance).
So what happens when you roll a 1? You stare at the die and pretend?

How do you get a 1 on 2D6? And if you did, why would you re-roll it?

I'm pretty sure the question was in reference to a hit roll, not a scatter roll.
If you roll a 1 you get a re-roll. So you have the ability to re-roll.

AnonAmbientLight wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
I'm well aware of what the ECPA does.
Your statement is that it does not allow re-rolls to Hit (by saying it does not qualify for the blast allowance).
So what happens when you roll a 1? You stare at the die and pretend?

How do you get a 1 on 2D6? And if you did, why would you re-roll it?

I'm sorry - I wasn't aware that the Blast rules required you to roll a 1 for ECPA. You know, since the scatter roll replaces the entire to-hit roll and all.

We know, for a fact, that the ECPA allows the re-roll of your to-hit. You have no rules basis to insist that the "on a 1" requirement is also transferred.

rigeld2 wrote:

AnonAmbientLight wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
I'm well aware of what the ECPA does.
Your statement is that it does not allow re-rolls to Hit (by saying it does not qualify for the blast allowance).
So what happens when you roll a 1? You stare at the die and pretend?

How do you get a 1 on 2D6? And if you did, why would you re-roll it?

I'm sorry - I wasn't aware that the Blast rules required you to roll a 1 for ECPA. You know, since the scatter roll replaces the entire to-hit roll and all.

We know, for a fact, that the ECPA allows the re-roll of your to-hit. You have no rules basis to insist that the "on a 1" requirement is also transferred.

If that's the case then the ethereal's FnP buff isn't 6+ FnP it''s 5+ like the normal rule.

AnonAmbientLight wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

AnonAmbientLight wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
I'm well aware of what the ECPA does.
Your statement is that it does not allow re-rolls to Hit (by saying it does not qualify for the blast allowance).
So what happens when you roll a 1? You stare at the die and pretend?

How do you get a 1 on 2D6? And if you did, why would you re-roll it?

I'm sorry - I wasn't aware that the Blast rules required you to roll a 1 for ECPA. You know, since the scatter roll replaces the entire to-hit roll and all.

We know, for a fact, that the ECPA allows the re-roll of your to-hit. You have no rules basis to insist that the "on a 1" requirement is also transferred.

If that's the case then the ethereal's FnP buff isn't 6+ FnP it''s 5+ like the normal rule.

That would be true!
Except it specifies that it's 6+. It's almost like words matter.

rigeld2 wrote:

AnonAmbientLight wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

AnonAmbientLight wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
I'm well aware of what the ECPA does.
Your statement is that it does not allow re-rolls to Hit (by saying it does not qualify for the blast allowance).
So what happens when you roll a 1? You stare at the die and pretend?

How do you get a 1 on 2D6? And if you did, why would you re-roll it?

I'm sorry - I wasn't aware that the Blast rules required you to roll a 1 for ECPA. You know, since the scatter roll replaces the entire to-hit roll and all.

We know, for a fact, that the ECPA allows the re-roll of your to-hit. You have no rules basis to insist that the "on a 1" requirement is also transferred.

If that's the case then the ethereal's FnP buff isn't 6+ FnP it''s 5+ like the normal rule.

That would be true!
Except it specifies that it's 6+. It's almost like words matter.

Great, then you agree that re-rolls of 1's to hit specifically is mentioning re-rolls of 1s only. As you said, it's almost like words matter.

AnonAmbientLight wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

AnonAmbientLight wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

AnonAmbientLight wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
I'm well aware of what the ECPA does.
Your statement is that it does not allow re-rolls to Hit (by saying it does not qualify for the blast allowance).
So what happens when you roll a 1? You stare at the die and pretend?

How do you get a 1 on 2D6? And if you did, why would you re-roll it?

I'm sorry - I wasn't aware that the Blast rules required you to roll a 1 for ECPA. You know, since the scatter roll replaces the entire to-hit roll and all.

We know, for a fact, that the ECPA allows the re-roll of your to-hit. You have no rules basis to insist that the "on a 1" requirement is also transferred.

If that's the case then the ethereal's FnP buff isn't 6+ FnP it''s 5+ like the normal rule.

That would be true!
Except it specifies that it's 6+. It's almost like words matter.

Great, then you agree that re-rolls of 1's to hit specifically is mentioning re-rolls of 1s only. As you said, it's almost like words matter.

Do the Blast rules exempt re-rolls of 1 to hit? Or do they only care about re-rolls?

rigeld2 wrote:

AnonAmbientLight wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

AnonAmbientLight wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

AnonAmbientLight wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
I'm well aware of what the ECPA does.
Your statement is that it does not allow re-rolls to Hit (by saying it does not qualify for the blast allowance).
So what happens when you roll a 1? You stare at the die and pretend?

How do you get a 1 on 2D6? And if you did, why would you re-roll it?

I'm sorry - I wasn't aware that the Blast rules required you to roll a 1 for ECPA. You know, since the scatter roll replaces the entire to-hit roll and all.

We know, for a fact, that the ECPA allows the re-roll of your to-hit. You have no rules basis to insist that the "on a 1" requirement is also transferred.

If that's the case then the ethereal's FnP buff isn't 6+ FnP it''s 5+ like the normal rule.

That would be true!
Except it specifies that it's 6+. It's almost like words matter.

Great, then you agree that re-rolls of 1's to hit specifically is mentioning re-rolls of 1s only. As you said, it's almost like words matter.

Do the Blast rules exempt re-rolls of 1 to hit? Or do they only care about re-rolls?

BRB pg 5 "If you re-roll a single 2D6 or 3D6 roll, you must re-roll all of the dice and not just some of them, unless the rule granting the rerolls specifies otherwise." Re-rolls of 1's only is the rule granting the re-rolls, therefore you do not get to re-roll the scatter.

Just like with the FnP example with the ethereal, you have a specific rule that it tells you how this modification of the rule works. As you said, words matter.

AnonAmbientLight wrote:
BRB pg 5 "If you re-roll a single 2D6 or 3D6 roll, you must re-roll all of the dice and not just some of them, unless the rule granting the rerolls specifies otherwise." Re-rolls of 1's only is the rule granting the re-rolls, therefore you do not get to re-roll the scatter.

Just like with the FnP example with the ethereal, you have a specific rule that it tells you how this modification of the rule works. As you said, words matter.

I can quote irrelevant rules too.
Look at the Blast rules. What do they say? Do they exclude re-rolls that are conditional?

As above; the blast rules are not conditional. If you can answer the question "can you reroll to hit? " with "yes", you Reroll blast scatter dice.

Having the ability to Reroll to hit rolls of 1 DOES mean you can answer "yes" to the question.

Remember - the only way to make it conditional is to change the wording, and thus cannot be RAW

rigeld2 wrote:

AnonAmbientLight wrote:
BRB pg 5 "If you re-roll a single 2D6 or 3D6 roll, you must re-roll all of the dice and not just some of them, unless the rule granting the rerolls specifies otherwise." Re-rolls of 1's only is the rule granting the re-rolls, therefore you do not get to re-roll the scatter.

Just like with the FnP example with the ethereal, you have a specific rule that it tells you how this modification of the rule works. As you said, words matter.

I can quote irrelevant rules too.
Look at the Blast rules. What do they say? Do they exclude re-rolls that are conditional?

The specific rule in question allows you re-rolls of 1 (the ECPA). Pg 5 specifically stats you MUST obey what the re-roll rule says. Blast is not a re-roll rule, it's just telling you what you have to do when you can make that action.

So how does that work with Objuration Mechanicum (Malediction - must re-roll to hit rolls of 6) then? The unit has a re-roll now so it gets to re-roll all it's scatters?

AnonAmbientLight wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

AnonAmbientLight wrote:
BRB pg 5 "If you re-roll a single 2D6 or 3D6 roll, you must re-roll all of the dice and not just some of them, unless the rule granting the rerolls specifies otherwise." Re-rolls of 1's only is the rule granting the re-rolls, therefore you do not get to re-roll the scatter.

Just like with the FnP example with the ethereal, you have a specific rule that it tells you how this modification of the rule works. As you said, words matter.

I can quote irrelevant rules too.
Look at the Blast rules. What do they say? Do they exclude re-rolls that are conditional?

The specific rule in question allows you re-rolls of 1 (the ECPA). Pg 5 specifically stats you MUST obey what the re-roll rule says. Blast is not a re-roll rule, it's just telling you what you have to do when you can make that action.

... Okay?
Blast is allowing a re-roll; you're not arguing that.
You're somehow saying ECPA can't re-roll the scatter dice because of page 5?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Chrysis wrote:
So how does that work with Objuration Mechanicum (Malediction - must re-roll to hit rolls of 6) then? The unit has a re-roll now so it gets to re-roll all it's scatters?

As written, yes.

rigeld2 wrote:

AnonAmbientLight wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

AnonAmbientLight wrote:
BRB pg 5 "If you re-roll a single 2D6 or 3D6 roll, you must re-roll all of the dice and not just some of them, unless the rule granting the rerolls specifies otherwise." Re-rolls of 1's only is the rule granting the re-rolls, therefore you do not get to re-roll the scatter.

Just like with the FnP example with the ethereal, you have a specific rule that it tells you how this modification of the rule works. As you said, words matter.

I can quote irrelevant rules too.
Look at the Blast rules. What do they say? Do they exclude re-rolls that are conditional?

The specific rule in question allows you re-rolls of 1 (the ECPA). Pg 5 specifically stats you MUST obey what the re-roll rule says. Blast is not a re-roll rule, it's just telling you what you have to do when you can make that action.

... Okay?
Blast is allowing a re-roll; you're not arguing that.
You're somehow saying ECPA can't re-roll the scatter dice because of page 5?

Blast says that if you can re-roll do so. Pg 5 says, you can re-roll 2d6 or 3d6 if it lets you, but you must obey what the re-roll rule says. They go hand in hand. One isn't just suddenly ignored because it doesn't specifically say it. Words matter, the rule isn't "re-roll your To Hits." The rule is "re-roll your To Hits of 1." Just like how the ethereal gets Fnp BUT it's on a 6 up. Re-roll your To Hits, BUT only 1's.

You're stopping half way through the roll and calling it game. That would be, as i have been saying, me reading the ethereal's rule, seeing the FnP and stopping right there, disregarding the 6 in brackets.

AnonAmbientLight wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

AnonAmbientLight wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

AnonAmbientLight wrote:
BRB pg 5 "If you re-roll a single 2D6 or 3D6 roll, you must re-roll all of the dice and not just some of them, unless the rule granting the rerolls specifies otherwise." Re-rolls of 1's only is the rule granting the re-rolls, therefore you do not get to re-roll the scatter.

Just like with the FnP example with the ethereal, you have a specific rule that it tells you how this modification of the rule works. As you said, words matter.

I can quote irrelevant rules too.
Look at the Blast rules. What do they say? Do they exclude re-rolls that are conditional?

The specific rule in question allows you re-rolls of 1 (the ECPA). Pg 5 specifically stats you MUST obey what the re-roll rule says. Blast is not a re-roll rule, it's just telling you what you have to do when you can make that action.

... Okay?
Blast is allowing a re-roll; you're not arguing that.
You're somehow saying ECPA can't re-roll the scatter dice because of page 5?

Blast says that if you can re-roll do so. Pg 5 says, you can re-roll 2d6 or 3d6 if it lets you, but you must obey what the re-roll rule says. They go hand in hand. One isn't just suddenly ignored because it doesn't specifically say it. Words matter, the rule isn't "re-roll your To Hits." The rule is "re-roll your To Hits of 1." Just like how the ethereal gets Fnp BUT it's on a 6 up. Re-roll your To Hits, BUT only 1's.

Please read the blast rules and cite where the rule cares about conditionals. The rule you cited on page 5 has literally nothing to do with this.
By citing that you've made literally no abilities ever allowed to re-roll scatter.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

AnonAmbientLight wrote:
You're stopping half way through the roll and calling it game. That would be, as i have been saying, me reading the ethereal's rule, seeing the FnP and stopping right there, disregarding the 6 in brackets.

Incorrect. I'm stopping where the Blast rule cares about. The conditional is relevant to the Blast rule and is therefore ignored.
FNP specifies that it cares about the parenthetical and therefore it's not ignored.

The outlook that you just need a rule that states it allows re-rolls to evoke this rule does create a few unusual situations however. Such as the ability to re-roll all scatter dice regardless if you are facing the preferred enemy or not. The last time this was raised we even saw claims that an ammo runt, I think that gives orks the ability to re-roll, would meet the requirements without actually having to evoke the re-roll rule and the negatives that come along with it. After all, your re-rolling simply because the Blast Marker gives you permission to do so because there is no conditions attached.

That isn't to say this outlook is wrong, stating that there are no instructions creating conditions or restrictions within the Blast rules themselves is factual, but it probably wasn't the intent. In such cases it is up to Game Workshop to release a Frequently Asked Question answer to clarify the matter. Needless to say, seeing this topic does come up time and time again with the same sides all claiming to right, it is well due for some sort of official clarification. I seriously doubt rehashing the same old arguments is going to find some missing text that makes it all so obvious to us fence sitters.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, correct me if I am wrong, but doesn't page 5 actually say something along the lines of:
If you are given the ability to re-roll then you must re-roll all the dice involved in that Roll, unless the rule grants you permission to keep individual die.

This is important because quite a few Rolls out there do use more then once dice, for example a single difficult terrain Roll is 2D6. A rule that simply states 're-roll difficult terrain' would not allow you to keep, say, a 5 while re-rolling the 1. A rule stating you have permission to re-roll a single die, singling out that it is a single die, would therefore allow you to choose to keep the 5 in this scenario and re-roll the 1. Therefore any rule telling to re-roll the 'To Hit Roll' would have you roll a single die or multiple die, depending completely on how many dice you rolled for that one individual 'shot,' because it doesn't state how many dice you are allowed to re-roll.

This page would actually require you to re-roll both the Scatter Die and the 2D6, unless the rule states you can keep one of the three die and only roll the other two.

 Dr. Delorean wrote:

"BLAST WEAPONS AND RE-ROLLS
If a model has the ability to re-roll its rolls To Hit AND chooses to do so after firing a Blast weapon, the player must re-roll both the scatter dice and the 2d6"

Does being able to re-roll 1s constitute "the ability to re-roll its rolls to hit" for this purpose? Or would I need something that gave me re-rolls unconditional of what I actually rolled on the dice?

Sorry if this question has been asked many times before, I checked the front page of YMDC and couldn't see anything on it.

Thanks for your help!

Any re-roll qualifies as an ability to re-roll no matter how limited the circumstances. Howerer, the citation that you provided (emphasis mine) requires two things:

1) Does the model have the ability to re-roll To Hit rolls?

2) Did the model choose to do so after firing a blast weapon?

Most people are ignoring question 2. This issue is really determined by the fact that a model firing a blast weapon can never choose to re-roll a To Hit roll when firing a blast weapon because models firing blast weapons do not roll To Hit (see BRB p33).

So, neither prescience, BS6+, preferred enemy, nor the ECPA allow a model to re-roll the scatter dice.