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 BlackTalos wrote:
A roll of 1 triggers others, but not scatter.

Why not? It does grant the Blast Weapon a re-roll if it rolls a 1, right?

 BlackTalos wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
Blast weapons never roll to hit and can therefore never miss.

Just this. Wrong. They can miss.

A miss in Phase 3 triggers certain Special Rules. Simple.

A roll of 1 triggers others, but not scatter.

Fine. "Can therefore never fail a To Hit roll".
More accurate according to the rules, still proves your argument incorrect.
Your statement is incorrect. A failed To Hit roll triggers certain Special Rules. While a failed To Hit roll is a miss, misses are not all failed To Hit rolls.

How about a rules quote? Maybe? You know, like the tenets require?

nosferatu1001 wrote:
They aren't choosing to Reroll to hit, they are choosing to Reroll the blast.

Your suggestion would lead you to never being able to Reroll blasts, and as that is useless is an " interpretation" that can be safely ignored

That was not an interpretation - that is the rule.

P33 gives a two part test (that is why it says 'and'), doesn't?

Models cannot pass the second part of the test, correct?

Re-rolls are still possible for rules like Twin-linked.

Regarding you opinion that we should 'safely ignore' the rules as written, it is totally innapropriate for this discussion. Feel free to present an actual argument with rules support. As it stands now, no one has presented anything suggestion that a model can pass both prongs of the test on p33.


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Rapture wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
They aren't choosing to Reroll to hit, they are choosing to Reroll the blast.

Your suggestion would lead you to never being able to Reroll blasts, and as that is useless is an " interpretation" that can be safely ignored

That was not an interpretation - that is the rule. What gives the model permission to re-roll the scatter dice?

P33 gives a two part test (that is why it says 'and'), doesn't?

Models cannot pass the second part of the test, correct?

Re-rolls are still possible for rules like Twin-linked.

Regarding you opinion that we should 'safely ignore' the rules as written, it is totally innapropriate for this discussion. Feel free to present an actual argument with rules support and direct quotes. As it stands now, no one has presented anything suggestion that a model can pass both prongs of the test on p33.

so wait, does pref enemy not allow me to RR the scatter dice etc ?

 Formosa wrote:
so wait, does pref enemy not allow me to RR the scatter dice etc ?

Only if the target is your preferred enemy.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Rapture wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
They aren't choosing to Reroll to hit, they are choosing to Reroll the blast.

Your suggestion would lead you to never being able to Reroll blasts, and as that is useless is an " interpretation" that can be safely ignored

That was not an interpretation - that is the rule.

P33 gives a two part test (that is why it says 'and'), doesn't?

Models cannot pass the second part of the test, correct?

Re-rolls are still possible for rules like Twin-linked.

Regarding you opinion that we should 'safely ignore' the rules as written, it is totally innapropriate for this discussion. Feel free to present an actual argument with rules support. As it stands now, no one has presented anything suggestion that a model can pass both prongs of the test on p33.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Rapture wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
They aren't choosing to Reroll to hit, they are choosing to Reroll the blast.

Your suggestion would lead you to never being able to Reroll blasts, and as that is useless is an " interpretation" that can be safely ignored

That was not an interpretation - that is the rule. What gives the model permission to re-roll the scatter dice?

P33 gives a two part test (that is why it says 'and'), doesn't?

Models cannot pass the second part of the test, correct?

Re-rolls are still possible for rules like Twin-linked.

Regarding you opinion that we should 'safely ignore' the rules as written, it is totally innapropriate for this discussion. Feel free to present an actual argument with rules support and direct quotes. As it stands now, no one has presented anything suggestion that a model can pass both prongs of the test on p33.

So much fail in one post.

The "and" is not a qualifier for the rule, you just have the choice to re-roll the scatter. If you like where the marker scattered you can keep the roll... Hence "If you can re-roll, and choose to, you may re-roll".

READING waaaay too much into the rules.......

Still waiting for a list of Special Rules which give you the choice to Re-Roll To Hits, instead of making it mandatory that you Re-Roll To Hits.

You guys are silly. There is a HIT die on the scatter die. That's your roll to hit. The dice with the numbers is the distance in which the blast marker will move if the scatter die fails to show the HIT. The numbered dice have nothing to do with hitting in this instance. They have everything to do with the distance that the blast scatters by.

With non blast weapons, you roll numbered dice to try and hit thimgs. If the die comes up as a one, you get to reroll that die.

so sue me for thinking that something that allows re-rolls and looking at the re-rolls blasts allows me to re-roll, I must be an idiot for thinking that.

don't play tau but I think this earth caste array if it allows rr then it can rr blasts, I cant really see anything that stops it in the RR blasts page, what am I missing?

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 BlackTalos wrote:
A roll of 1 triggers others, but not scatter.

Why not? It does grant the Blast Weapon a re-roll if it rolls a 1, right?

There is no 1 on the blast die.


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 Mywik wrote:

 BlackTalos wrote:
Prescience has a permission to reroll misses then... You can't reroll a hit indeed.
Permission asks for a reroll? What?
Permission is:"reroll 1s" - reroll dice rolls of 1: you can pickup dices with 1 and roll again.
I'd even say RaW allows you to reroll the 1s in your scatter... If you wanted to... But not 2s, 3s, 6s, scatter etc.

I know a RaW that allows you to reroll, even if you pass/hit.
That rule gives you express permission to do that. Other permissions don't...
I'll try to find that rule now...

Permission is "reroll blast dice" when you have a reroll. This permission is restricted on having a reroll. No other restriction is given. I have a reroll on 1s. You have a reroll on "all failed to hit". So we either both have a reroll or we both have no reroll since both our permissions to reroll are conditioned.
Your assertion is that reroll "all failed" is somehow different to reroll "all 1s" in that the former is unconditioned. Which is not true. Both have restrictions on the reroll and you selectively apply only one of them.

I know that this leads to other unpleasant results but this is still the RaW in this part of the discussion.
Flingit has it correct it can now be argued that you ALWAYS have a reroll on blasts ... which im not decided on how i see it.

Additionally ... no it doesnt allow you to reroll the ones in the scatter since you can never reroll only one of them per the blast scatter rules. Additionally its 2d6 not 2xd6 so you never roll a 1 anyways.

It is a reroll failed to hit roll of one. A blast die does not have a 1 . The two dice that tells you how far to scatter it if the blast die comes up as an arrow, does. If the blast die had a 1 which indicated a failed to hit roll, you could reroll it. Until a blast die suddenly has a 1, you will still not be able to reroll the distance it scatters.

but blast RR say if you get a RR (it doesn't specify what kind that im aware of) then you can RR the blast dice etc.

otherwise pref enemy doesn't allow it either ?

busby wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 BlackTalos wrote:
A roll of 1 triggers others, but not scatter.

Why not? It does grant the Blast Weapon a re-roll if it rolls a 1, right?

There is no 1 on the blast die.

There's also no 1 on my Apocalypse die set:
http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?prodId=prod2130106a

Only a Machina Opus instead.

 Formosa wrote:
but blast RR say if you get a RR (it doesn't specify what kind that im aware of) then you can RR the blast dice etc.

otherwise pref enemy doesn't allow it either ?

The rule in question give the shooter the ability to reroll failed to hit rolls of 1. The blast die is not an attemptto hit based on a roll of 1-6. It is an attempt to hit based on whether the hit indicator comes up. The numbers on the other two dice show you how far it will scatter should it miss. There is never a point during a blast shot where you are comparing its chances of hitting based on the numbers. You are always comparing how far it moves base on the numbers. I like how people keep quoting page 33 though. Keep doing that.

busby wrote:
The numbers on the other two dice show you how far it will scatter should it miss. There is never a point during a blast shot where you are comparing its chances of hitting based on the numbers. You are always comparing how far it moves base on the numbers.

You're right. You never ever take the numbers in the D6s into account. I mean, it's not like rolling double 1's with a BS3 model would make it more accurate or anything.

You only ever take them into account when seeing how far (or not) it will scatter away from its intended target. Good job.

busby wrote:
You guys are silly. There is a HIT die on the scatter die. That's your roll to hit. The dice with the numbers is the distance in which the blast marker will move if the scatter die fails to show the HIT. The numbered dice have nothing to do with hitting in this instance. They have everything to do with the distance that the blast scatters by.

With non blast weapons, you roll numbered dice to try and hit thimgs. If the die comes up as a one, you get to reroll that die.

Except Blasts never make a To Hit roll - I cited the rule, perhaps you missed it.
It would behoove you to not make up rules when discussing on this forum.

busby wrote:

 Formosa wrote:
but blast RR say if you get a RR (it doesn't specify what kind that im aware of) then you can RR the blast dice etc.

otherwise pref enemy doesn't allow it either ?

The rule in question give the shooter the ability to reroll failed to hit rolls of 1. The blast die is not an attemptto hit based on a roll of 1-6. It is an attempt to hit based on whether the hit indicator comes up. The numbers on the other two dice show you how far it will scatter should it miss. There is never a point during a blast shot where you are comparing its chances of hitting based on the numbers. You are always comparing how far it moves base on the numbers. I like how people keep quoting page 33 though. Keep doing that.

To prove your case, you need to show the "miss" result on the scatter dice......

*checks dice*
Nope its not there, so I guess nothing ever gets to re-roll scatter dice, and they just wrote that rule because they had some blank space on the page..

Where am I making up rules?


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 Steel-W0LF wrote:

busby wrote:

 Formosa wrote:
but blast RR say if you get a RR (it doesn't specify what kind that im aware of) then you can RR the blast dice etc.

otherwise pref enemy doesn't allow it either ?

The rule in question give the shooter the ability to reroll failed to hit rolls of 1. The blast die is not an attemptto hit based on a roll of 1-6. It is an attempt to hit based on whether the hit indicator comes up. The numbers on the other two dice show you how far it will scatter should it miss. There is never a point during a blast shot where you are comparing its chances of hitting based on the numbers. You are always comparing how far it moves base on the numbers. I like how people keep quoting page 33 though. Keep doing that.

To prove your case, you need to show the "miss" result on the scatter dice......

*checks dice*
Nope its not there, so I guess nothing ever gets to re-roll scatter dice, and they just wrote that rule because they had some blank space on the page..

You must be new to Games Workshop games.

busby wrote:Where am I making up rules?

busby wrote:You guys are silly. There is a HIT die on the scatter die. That's your roll to hit. The dice with the numbers is the distance in which the blast marker will move if the scatter die fails to show the HIT. The numbered dice have nothing to do with hitting in this instance. They have everything to do with the distance that the blast scatters by.

With non blast weapons, you roll numbered dice to try and hit thimgs. If the die comes up as a one, you get to reroll that die.

My emphasis. As you can see, you said that the Hit on the scatter die means it's a roll To Hit. This is demonstrably false and has no rules support, so you must have made it up.

Please don't.

rigeld2 wrote:

busby wrote:
You guys are silly. There is a HIT die on the scatter die. That's your roll to hit. The dice with the numbers is the distance in which the blast marker will move if the scatter die fails to show the HIT. The numbered dice have nothing to do with hitting in this instance. They have everything to do with the distance that the blast scatters by.

With non blast weapons, you roll numbered dice to try and hit thimgs. If the die comes up as a one, you get to reroll that die.

Except Blasts never make a To Hit roll - I cited the rule, perhaps you missed it.
It would behoove you to not make up rules when discussing on this forum.

So this topic is settled? You never reroll those 1s then.

busby wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

busby wrote:
You guys are silly. There is a HIT die on the scatter die. That's your roll to hit. The dice with the numbers is the distance in which the blast marker will move if the scatter die fails to show the HIT. The numbered dice have nothing to do with hitting in this instance. They have everything to do with the distance that the blast scatters by.

With non blast weapons, you roll numbered dice to try and hit thimgs. If the die comes up as a one, you get to reroll that die.

Except Blasts never make a To Hit roll - I cited the rule, perhaps you missed it.
It would behoove you to not make up rules when discussing on this forum.

So this topic is settled? You never reroll those 1s then.

Well, using that argument there's no ability that allows rerolls.
Since that renders the rule functionally useless it cannot be correct and the argument is thrown out.

So yes, you can reroll Blasts with the ECPA or PE.

rigeld2 wrote:

busby wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

busby wrote:
You guys are silly. There is a HIT die on the scatter die. That's your roll to hit. The dice with the numbers is the distance in which the blast marker will move if the scatter die fails to show the HIT. The numbered dice have nothing to do with hitting in this instance. They have everything to do with the distance that the blast scatters by.

With non blast weapons, you roll numbered dice to try and hit thimgs. If the die comes up as a one, you get to reroll that die.

Except Blasts never make a To Hit roll - I cited the rule, perhaps you missed it.
It would behoove you to not make up rules when discussing on this forum.

So this topic is settled? You never reroll those 1s then.

Well, using that argument there's no ability that allows rerolls.
Since that renders the rule functionally useless it cannot be correct and the argument is thrown out.


But you just said blast dice don't have a to hit roll. Which the EPCA allows you to reroll to hit rolls of 1, yes? So which is it. Do they roll to hit now, or not?
So yes, you can reroll Blasts with the ECPA or PE.

Bah my response in your quote. On my phone.

busby wrote:
Where am I making up rules?


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 Steel-W0LF wrote:

busby wrote:

 Formosa wrote:
but blast RR say if you get a RR (it doesn't specify what kind that im aware of) then you can RR the blast dice etc.

otherwise pref enemy doesn't allow it either ?

The rule in question give the shooter the ability to reroll failed to hit rolls of 1. The blast die is not an attemptto hit based on a roll of 1-6. It is an attempt to hit based on whether the hit indicator comes up. The numbers on the other two dice show you how far it will scatter should it miss. There is never a point during a blast shot where you are comparing its chances of hitting based on the numbers. You are always comparing how far it moves base on the numbers. I like how people keep quoting page 33 though. Keep doing that.

To prove your case, you need to show the "miss" result on the scatter dice......

*checks dice*
Nope its not there, so I guess nothing ever gets to re-roll scatter dice, and they just wrote that rule because they had some blank space on the page..

You must be new to Games Workshop games.

Please link all the rules that are never used because they are impossible to fulfill..... or you are just wrong in your reading, as thats what your interpretation leads to. A rule that can never be used.

Perhaps you should read the thread to understand the arguments? It doesn't seem like you have.
You should also familiarize yourself with the rules on page 33 with respect to Blasts - it seems like you don't understand those either.

Oh I do. That rule has been quoted several times. It talks about the ability to reroll your blast dice if a rule allows it to do so. You just stated that here is no roll to hit on blast while earlier arguments FOR the reroll of 1s have all been concerning the attempt to roll to hit with blast dice. Since you indicated there isn't then this attempt to reroll 1s on an attempt to hit is moot. There is no roll to hit so therefore their is no reroll of the ones that you roll.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Wait. ... okay, I don't have the Tau book so I might be about to eat my foot. Does it say reroll 1s or reroll failed whatever of 1s?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
If it states reroll 1s when shooting, then I am firmly.in the boat of in favor of rerolling the scatter die along with the 1s as quoted earlier.

busby wrote:
Oh I do. That rule has been quoted several times. It talks about the ability to reroll your blast dice if a rule allows it to do so. You just stated that here is no roll to hit on blast while earlier arguments FOR the reroll of 1s have all been concerning the attempt to roll to hit with blast dice. Since you indicated there isn't then this attempt to reroll 1s on an attempt to hit is moot. There is no roll to hit so therefore their is no reroll of the ones that you roll.

...
And like I said - that argument leads to literally no abilities allowing a reroll as all of them require a failed roll To Hit.
Since that renders the rule functionally useless, that argument cannot be correct.

Therefore the assertion that rerolls with a condition must be able to reroll blasts must be correct. Because, you see, all rerolls have a conditional.

What is the exact statement for Earth Caste's ability?

busby wrote:
What is the exact statement for Earth Caste's ability?

It allows you to reroll To Hit rolls of 1. (Iirc, Tau book isn't with me at the moment)

 Steel-W0LF wrote:


So much fail in one post.

The "and" is not a qualifier for the rule, you just have the choice to re-roll the scatter. If you like where the marker scattered you can keep the roll... Hence "If you can re-roll, and choose to, you may re-roll".

READING waaaay too much into the rules.......

Please quote and explain the rule if you want to prove that it says something other than what the normal reading of such a sentence would communicate.

Since when is reading and applying the actual language a bad thing? Is that the extent of your counter argument, that I am using too much of the rule when applying the rule?

The previously quoted section has two prongs (it uses the form 'if x and y then z').

First, the model firing the blast weapon must have a qualifying ability.

Second, it must choose to re-roll the To Hit dice.

I haven't seen any argument explaining how the second prong can be ignored or how a model can ever roll a To Hit die when using a blast eapong that the model can thgen choose to re-roll. There have been a few hal-baked suggestion that the scatter dice qualify as a To Hit roll, but p33 expressly states that models firing blast weapons do not roll To Hit.

So, do you have a supported counter argument, or will you stick with the dismissive 'nah-uh?'

I would still like to know what Special Rule meet the requirement of 'choosing' to Re-Roll.

Rapture wrote:

Second, it must choose to re-roll the To Hit dice.

I haven't seen any argument explaining how the second prong can be ignored or how a model can ever roll a To Hit die when using a blast eapong that the model can thgen choose to re-roll. There have been a few hal-baked suggestion that the scatter dice qualify as a To Hit roll, but p33 expressly states that models firing blast weapons do not roll To Hit.

So, do you have a supported counter argument, or will you stick with the dismissive 'nah-uh?'

You are not getting it...

The model doesn't CHOOSE anything.

You the player do..... that is all that and implies. That if you choose to take your re-roll you can, but are not forced to re-roll the scatter if you like where it ended up the first time.

You're are trying to turn the AND into some qualifier that would disallow every re-roll rule from working, when all the AND actually does is gives you, the player, the choice to re-roll or not.