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my ammo runts love this thread.

Ammo runts grant a reroll to a model
Blast allows reroll of scatter dice because the model does have the ability to reroll.
see the condition on how good of a reroll it is, is irrelevant.

I can use the blast reroll rule to reroll blast (SAG) weapons all game long

I, personally, like the interpretation that only Re-Roll abilities that allow the model/unit/player the freedom of choice to Re-Roll are allowed to Re-Roll Blast Markers. This interpenetration is based on looking at the whole sentence as requirements, instead of looking at the sentence as a single requirement and additional permissions. I like it because there is a list of Special Rules that do still meet this requirement, a list which does not include the questionable Special Rules like Preferred Enemy. It also explains why Twin-Linked has it's own Rules explaining how they get to Re-Roll blasts as well, that information would be redundant under the other interpretation but vital within this one. I'm still not ensure what the complete list of such Special Rules would be, but I do know that Prescience is one, so it's constant example of a Special Rule that would allow Re-Roll is confirmed still under this interpretation.

Ammo Grunts would still love that interpretation though, the player chooses when to use that Re-Roll Special Rule!
So not entirely perfect at creating an argument that would stop all of the unusual Re-Rolling shenanigans we are seeing, but at least it does reduce them.

I still just want someone to take a minute and walk me through exactly how p33 grants a re-roll of the scatter dice. When I read it, I see, at best, an implied permission, but maybe I am focusing on the wrong sections.

The only permission I have seen argued comes from:

"BLAST WEAPONS AND RE-ROLLS
If a model has the ability to re-roll its rolls to hit and chooses to do so after firing a Blast weapon, the player must re-roll both the scatter dice and the 2d6"

But that doesn't grant a permission, it imposes a restriction and maybe implies a permission.

Where do the rules say, 'A model with the ability to re-roll To Hit rolls can re-roll the scatter dice when firing a blast weapon?' If we look at Twin-linked, that rules says, "If the scatter dice does not roll a Hit, you can choose to re-roll the dice with a Twin-linked Blast or Large Blast weapon." Where is the equivalent permission outside of Twin-linked?

So, what language is the basis for a re-roll and how does that language work?

Rapture wrote:
I still just want someone to take a minute and walk me through exactly how p33 grants a re-roll of the scatter dice. When I read it, I see, at best, an implied permission, but maybe I am focusing on the wrong sections.

The only permission I have seen argued comes from:

"BLAST WEAPONS AND RE-ROLLS
If a model has the ability to re-roll its rolls to hit and chooses to do so after firing a Blast weapon, the player must re-roll both the scatter dice and the 2d6"

But that doesn't grant a permission, it imposes a restriction and maybe implies a permission.

Where do the rules say, 'A model with the ability to re-roll To Hit rolls can re-roll the scatter dice when firing a blast weapon?' If we look at Twin-linked, that rules says, "If the scatter dice does not roll a Hit, you can choose to re-roll the dice with a Twin-linked Blast or Large Blast weapon." Where is the equivalent permission outside of Twin-linked?

So, what language is the basis for a re-roll and how does that language work?

For the opposite (i think wrong) side of the argument:
If a model has the ability to re-roll its rolls to hit and chooses to do so after firing a Blast weapon, the player must re-roll both the scatter dice and the 2d6.
Red: If you simply "have the ability". So nosferatu & Rigeld & others read that as "if you CAN reroll, even once during the game, you have the ability 24/7" so the model ALWAYS has the ability (Kinda like how he ALWAYS has the Special Rule - but i'd point out having the SR, and ability are 2 very different things).
Green: at any point during the game (i.e. every shooting phase) the model can choose to reroll after firing his blast. In a way, he can decide not to re-roll if he's happy with the result...
White: How he goes by rerolling.

As i pointed out earlier though, this wording means:
My model has Preferred enemy (Most unplayed model ever - Azrael?).
I therefore "have the ability to reroll".
I can therefore re-roll my Blast weapon against anything you could think of.

 BlackTalos wrote:

For the opposite (i think wrong) side of the argument:
If a model has the ability to re-roll its rolls To Hit and chooses to do so after firing a Blast weapon, the player must re-roll both the scatter dice and the 2d6.
Red: If you simply "have the ability". So nosferatu & Rigeld & others read that as "if you CAN reroll, even once during the game, you have the ability 24/7" so the model ALWAYS has the ability (Kinda like how he ALWAYS has the Special Rule - but i'd point out having the SR, and ability are 2 very different things).
Green: at any point during the game (i.e. every shooting phase) the model can choose to reroll after firing his blast. In a way, he can decide not to re-roll if he's happy with the result...
White: How he goes by rerolling.

As i pointed out earlier though, this wording means:
My model has Preferred enemy (Most unplayed model ever - Azrael?).
I therefore "have the ability to reroll".
I can therefore re-roll my Blast weapon against anything you could think of.

That is what I thought. I have no issue with the red - the language is clear. My issue is with the green. The green language says, 'and chooses to do [use its ability to re-roll To Hit] after firing a blast weapon.' The use of the word 'so' following the first condition makes this clear. We all know that complying with the green language would be impossible as models firing blast weapons do not roll To Hit.

But I am seeing it more clearly now.

Rapture wrote:

 BlackTalos wrote:

For the opposite (i think wrong) side of the argument:
If a model has the ability to re-roll its rolls To Hit and chooses to do so after firing a Blast weapon, the player must re-roll both the scatter dice and the 2d6.
Red: If you simply "have the ability". So nosferatu & Rigeld & others read that as "if you CAN reroll, even once during the game, you have the ability 24/7" so the model ALWAYS has the ability (Kinda like how he ALWAYS has the Special Rule - but i'd point out having the SR, and ability are 2 very different things).
Green: at any point during the game (i.e. every shooting phase) the model can choose to reroll after firing his blast. In a way, he can decide not to re-roll if he's happy with the result...
White: How he goes by rerolling.

As i pointed out earlier though, this wording means:
My model has Preferred enemy (Most unplayed model ever - Azrael?).
I therefore "have the ability to reroll".
I can therefore re-roll my Blast weapon against anything you could think of.

That is what I thought. I have no issue with the red - the language is clear. My issue is with the green. The green language says, 'and chooses to do [use its ability to re-roll To Hit] after firing a blast weapon.' The use of the word 'so' following the first condition makes this clear. We all know that complying with the green language would be impossible as models firing blast weapons do not roll To Hit.

But I am seeing it more clearly now.

I'd say the Twin-Linked Rule makes it very clear:
"If the scatter dice does not roll a Hit, you can choose to re-roll the dice with a Twin-linked Blast or Large Blast weapon"

They may not roll To Hit, but they can "roll a Hit" or "not roll a Hit" (per TL ruling), this is therefore a Hit/No Hit situation for powers like Prescience, IMO. If they clearly do not roll To Hit, then disregard all rerolls granted by "failed To Hit rolls".

Can someone with access to their brb check if there is anything about blast/template weapons and their interaction with bs6 or higher?

Bs6 allows a reroll, but its only successful on a 6, so its very similar to having a reroll of only 1's.

Might be useful to the discussion.

Yes: BS 7 or 8 means you deduct 7" or 8" from your blast scatter.

Now i am guessing the unconditional people will also say this grants a re-roll on the Blast? Nosferatu, Steel-Wolf?
Even though BS6+ clearly states: "it gains a re-roll whenever it rolls a 1 To Hit with ranged attacks."

But no, the others will agree that it is impossible to roll a 1 on 2D6+scatter Dice.
Even though they can "roll a Hit" or "not roll a Hit" (per TL ruling)


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 BarBoBot wrote:
Nos I agree that the RAW is indisputable... Any reroll works.

The reason I said HIWPI is reroll 1's doesn't work, is it just doesn't pass the sniff test.

The reroll of 1's is so specific, that it doesn't seem right that you get a reroll when no 1's are involved.

I guess in a way it seems like you should be able reroll scatter if you would have an applicable reroll to use.

I'm not saying this is correct, but it seems like it could be abused by things it wasnt intended to work for, such as preferred enemy: orks. If your not playing against orks, would you get the reroll by RAW? If the conditions of the reroll don't have to be met, then you would right?

How is RaW indisputable on the 1s to hit?

Any re-roll will re-roll Blast, yes. But you never get a re-roll on Preferred Enemy or ECA if you don't roll a 1....?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 nutty_nutter wrote:

actually twin linked is also conditional, you can't re-roll a hit for example.

all re-rolls have the innate condition of a miss.

re-rolling of 1's in this case is no different than re-rolling any to hit dice.

the preferred enemy however makes it a little less straightforward, you wouldn't have the capacity to re-roll if you were not shooting at an ork unit, regardless of the weapon type you were using, as such unless you were shooting at the enemy to which you have preference you would not have the ability to re-roll.

that's the main difference between a flat re-roll 1 result and preferred enemy re-roll, they operate very differently.

think of it like an on-off switch.

preferred enemy is by default in the off position, when you declare an attack vs the preferred enemy it switched to the on position. (due to not always shooting against your preferred enemy)

with twin linked, it is permanently in the on position (due to the nature of twin linked)

with re-roll 1's to hit, it is permanently in the on position (due to the nature of the rule in question, as long as you throw to hit dice you have permission to re-roll 1's)

(hope that makes sense)

It makes sense, but how does the on position re-roll 1's to hit allow anything but the re-rolls of Dice with 1s?
From your post it seems you agree that "the innate condition of a miss" is required for re-rolls and Earth Cast array does not re-roll Blasts? Although i guess you are in agreement with Nosferatu that they do?

Black - because the rule doesn't ask that you HAVE rolled a to hit just if you had the ability to Reroll a to hit, you Reroll scatter

If when rolling to hit, you can Reroll that to hit, when firing a blast you can Reroll scatter.

That's all page 33 states. You are confusing "ability" with "actually has"

RAW you should get to reroll the scatter even if you only have the ability to reroll 1's.

I do not and will not play it that way, however. It's too cheesy for most opponents, and I don't need to win badly enough to force the issue. (If my opponent wants to play it that way, then by all means we can do it like that!)

Sure, it is easy to simply say that 'RAW it works,' but how are you choosing to re-roll a To Hit roll when firing a blast weapon? Actual rule quotes over the last few pages show that it is not possible.

My issue with it is how the BRB takes rule order into consideration. Pg5 says if you re-roll, you must take the condition of your re-roll into question BEFORE you re-roll. But others argue that the blast rule overrides this. So their argument seems to be General Rule < Special Rule.

We reach a conflict in that line of reasoning when we reach the "Ignores Cover" rule which says that any wounds caused by such a weapon cannot be saved with cover. RAW, this does not include vehicles because vehicles do not take wounds. However, there is a general rule pointed out later on in the book that alludes to the fact that vehicle damage can have cover saves like they do wounds.

So, is it a case of rules coming last, take up precedence or special rules overriding general rules. You must be consistent. It doesn't just work for one rule and not for the other. If the special rules override general rules, then ignores cover weapons can never ignore cover on vehicles.

Personally i think it's a case of GW forgetting to proofread their work. Similar to how, RAW, all farsight enclaves cannot not have shadowsun and aun'va in their army. That wasn't errata'd for a few months, but the staunchest or rules warriors probably forced them to take it. I mean, RAW...