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As a new Tyranid player, I'm not complaining. I'm sure something will shake out of this codex, even though most people think it will be something smelling like fecal matter.
I gave it a thumbs up. Heck, I did a video review of it.
fartherthanfar wrote: Nids isnt a shooters army so some guns being 24" is fine, especially if they are as strong and versatile as the bio-plasmic cannon
Some guns yes, but maybe not the massive piece of bio-artillery whose entire existance is dedicated to shooting the gigantic cannon on his back.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/01/13 21:26:49
my Slaanesh Daemon Princes own flyrants. Their lack of invul, lower initiative, etc always loses... Not to mention it's even worse for them now give we actually STILL have access to biomancy. A lot of crack has been smoked prior to writing this. Not to mention shadows doesn't effect tzeentch daemons as they always have a static +3 to their leadership.
While I dont disagree that DPs will eat Flyrants, what is giving your Daemons the +3 ??
Daemons of tzeentch get plus 3 to psy tests
Yes, I was pointing out to him that the +3 is only for Psy Tests. Also most DPs come with wings nowadays, so the Psy Scream power cannot affect them while swooping.
SHUPPET wrote: Return your book. You will get a refund. On the offchance that they try to say no, cite false advertising. It might be shaky but between undelivered model promises such as strong anti-air capabilities, the faked White Dward battle report, and the phrase "all units playable - all units desirable" being used by GW to describe this dex, they probably won't bother arguing it
Where does that come from? I can't recall.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: Might be a bit controversial, but I'm actually quite happy with how underwhelming the new book is.
After Tau and Eldar books which are absolutely absurd and game breaking in terms of power (good bye, every faction that relied on cover to survive!), it's nice to have one that's potentially bearable to play against, and doesn't melt half your army within 2 shooting phases.
Well that quite sums up the power level codex, people who are going to play against it like it.
From the initial Age of Sigmar news thread, when its "feature" list was first confirmed:
Kid_Kyoto wrote:
It's like a train wreck. But one made from two circus trains colliding.
A collosal, terrible, flaming, hysterical train wreck with burning clowns running around spraying it with seltzer bottles while ring masters cry out how everything is fine and we should all come in while the dancing elephants lurch around leaving trails of blood behind them.
you only need one of the flyrants smash hits to wound to instant kill a DP, (and flyrant is more of a gun beats than a close combat one nowadays, whos considerably cheaper than a DP) if you've won every close combat engagement against a flyrant then I would have to believe that you got lucky, a DP isnt likely to kill a flyrant in one round where a flyrant is likely to kill the dp as he returns blows, plus hes cheaper!!! and shoots like a motha!!!!
Automatically Appended Next Post: I realise the codex isnt a top dog codex, but its still a good enough codex, I think anyone returning the codex to the shop is silly. Its not like games-workshop is gonna make another one.
I guess the people who are complaining are comparing it to tau and eldar codex, and realise its not as strong ( I would agree) but im not a whinner and I look at what we do have instead of what we dont have. What we do have is a very decent codex which I am looking forward to play with.
if you want to know why I say its a good codex look at my post on page 11 of this thread
then people are gonna say " maybe your satisfied with "good enough" but im not!!!!" and to those people I say: " Poor baby, life is tough eh."
others will say " its not "good enough" its crap de crap" and to those I say: "Look more closely, its a very synergetic codex, look at what you can do instead of what you cant do anymore." For example no doubt the Crone isnt as good as a heldrake, (first of all, of course its not, it would be silly if it was, the heldrake as anyone knows is op, I for one am entirely ok with the crone being less powerfull than a heldrake) then you realise that CSM dont have access to flyrants, Dp arent nearly as good (proportionnally speaking) and only one can get a black mace, and they dont shoot.
make a list with 2 flyrants at 230pts 2 harpies at 150pts and a crone at 155pts and you have a beautifull and cheap airforce that could jink save with shrouded from a 3 venomthrope floating aroundso jinking at 3+ add 2 exocrine and a brood of 2 dakkafexes at 150pts you then have 300pts left for 3 teams of 3 warriors with barbed strangler for troops that can take anti infantry gun very well and still shoot 36" large pie plate that pin. this gives you a 1990pts list that is very hard to beat.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2014/01/13 22:58:36
fartherthanfar wrote: you only need one of the flyrants smash hits to wound to instant kill a DP, (and flyrant is more of a gun beats than a close combat one nowadays, whos considerably cheaper than a DP) if you've won every close combat engagement against a flyrant then I would have to believe that you got lucky, a DP isnt likely to kill a flyrant in one round where a flyrant is likely to kill the dp as he returns blows, plus hes cheaper!!! and shoots like a motha!!!!
So what is going to protect you from a CSM Daemon Prince using a Black Mace. It has 5 attacks +1 for charging +d6 for Daemon weapon that is AP2. It has a higher weapon skill and INI. 8-12 AP2 attacks will plaster your Hive Tryant into tomorrow.
Even baseline ChDPs' will own you with ML3 pskers that can easily get Iron Arm, have a 4+ invuln save and still out Melee you and some with weapons that will ID your HT.. Again before you even swing.
Its sounds like your experience with fighting DPs is very limited.
fartherthanfar wrote: you only need one of the flyrants smash hits to wound to instant kill a DP, (and flyrant is more of a gun beats than a close combat one nowadays, whos considerably cheaper than a DP) if you've won every close combat engagement against a flyrant then I would have to believe that you got lucky, a DP isnt likely to kill a flyrant in one round where a flyrant is likely to kill the dp as he returns blows, plus hes cheaper!!! and shoots like a motha!!!!
Automatically Appended Next Post: I realise the codex isnt a top dog codex, but its still a good enough codex, I think anyone returning the codex to the shop is silly.
Its not like games-workshop is gonna make another one.
I guess the people who are complaining are comparing it to tau and eldar codex, and realise its not as strong ( I would agree) but im not a whinner and I look at what we do have instead of what we dont have.
What we do have is a very decent codex which I am looking forward to play with.
if you want to know why I say its a good codex look at my post on page 11 of this thread
People are returning it because its a bad product, but showing dissatisfaction with it is the only way to prevent such clusterfucks from happening in the future. You can deny it all you want. This codex is option bare and one dimensional, short of the vanguard dataslate allowing stealers and lictors to assault from the shadows (And then you should question GW for making a purposefully incomplete dex) then this book stinks.
When you realize that more then half the books give you hard counters with standard armies its time to pull your head out of your ass.
Rick Priestley said it best:
Bryan always said that if the studio ever had to mix with the manufacturing and sales part of the business it would destroy the studio. And I have to say – he wasn’t wrong there! The modern studio isn’t a studio in the same way; it isn’t a collection of artists and creatives sharing ideas and driving each other on. It’s become the promotions department of a toy company – things move on!
Matt1785 wrote: This is the THE perfect time to get into Nids. I imagine eBay will be flush with people dumping their armies. So the book is sub-par for tournaments, I still think it's a cool army and I'd still play it despite the rules, I don't play in tournaments, and in friendly games will still be fun to run.
I've never been on the other side of a poor release to be honest. I played old Grey Knights, then our book was good, 6th Edition made it a bummer, oh well. Every other army I just buy, paint, play, think of anther, and move on. I've always wanted to start Tyranids, and this will be the time to snipe some good nid deals online.
Sorry to those that hate the book, and I understand the anger and frustration at such a poor showing. Nothing great about having an army you've probably had forever continually dumped on.
Just in relation to the eBay assumptions, its not. Might come in time but as of now, prices and amount of nids for sale on eBay is largely the same as ever. At least in my country. I doubt it's going to change too much. Prices are already cheap on eBay, people put up miniatures they no longer want, for a price they think they will sell for. I think it's fairly unlikely that they are going to be any cheaper than usual. It's still the cheapest place to look though, you should be able to find a nicely sized army really cheap if you dedicate two weeks to checking just a couple of times each day. You could do this any day of the year though, so I'm going to go ahead and say now is the worst possible time to get into Nids because they have a terrible new ruleset, and you can do exactly what you were planning to do with a nid army with another army, one with a more interesting codex.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ravenous D wrote: short of the vanguard dataslate allowing stealers and lictors to assault from the shadows (And then you should question GW for making a purposefully incomplete dex)
Is this a thing yet? How do you know that's what it does? More info?
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2014/01/13 22:57:55
P.S.A. I won't read your posts if you break it into a million separate quotes and make an eyesore of it.
End of the month apparently. GW is releasing something new every Saturday now, which is going to bloat and kill the game.
Rick Priestley said it best:
Bryan always said that if the studio ever had to mix with the manufacturing and sales part of the business it would destroy the studio. And I have to say – he wasn’t wrong there! The modern studio isn’t a studio in the same way; it isn’t a collection of artists and creatives sharing ideas and driving each other on. It’s become the promotions department of a toy company – things move on!
Seems, Natfka can't get it right even after the release :
Reader Review of the Tyranid Codex by Shadow of Prometheus on faeit212
Let’s start this post by stating that I am pleased with the new codex. Remember, I am approaching this as someone who is moving on from the past. We can either lay on the floor, kicking and screaming, or face reality and understand that these are our rules. However, I am not going Pollyanna here, and there are some things I am disappointed did not happen. But this disappointment is not based on changes from the last dex…it is based on missed opportunities.
Overall, the book is quality. The artwork, even the carryover, is gorgeous. If I am going to spend $50 on a hardcover book, it had better be a beauty…this one is. I really like the layout of the codex and the fold-out reference pages at the end. The sections for army rules, bio-artifacts, biomorphs, weapons…all well organized and easy to read. So as a book, it meets the high standards I expect from GW.
Let’s talk next about content, not rules. I was disappointed that there was so much carryover from the last dex in terms of backstory. The story of Old One Eye was copied verbatim from the previous book, as is true of much of the narrative. With the stable of exceptional writers that GW has, there should have been lots more new content. There was a bit scattered about, mostly with the new units. That I would have expected anyway. But with the existing units, there should have been much more new backstory for each. It just feels like laziness and trying to push this thing out the door. As previously discussed, the artwork is exceptional. I am particularly fond of the map on page 31 that is a wonderful representation of all of the major Hive Fleets and where they have attacked. It provides a great sense of scale in terms of the 40K venue. Here again, however, there are many pieces of artwork carried over from the last dex; this is particularly true when it comes to carryover units. C’mon, GW, you have so many resources. Almost all of the artwork for this book should have been new. So in terms of new content, I was disappointed.
Now a brief comment on the rules. I say brief because I will be going into much more detail as we get more experience with this codex.
I like this rule set.
Just kidding…not that brief!! Seriously, I do like the rules I have to use now. I like the changes to synapse. Are they more harsh for violators? Absolutely! Many will disagree, but this is a good thing. Our army is based on the fact that the Hive Mind has a connection to each and every creature. When they do not, it is not a good thing. If you cannot keep your beasties in synapse with the new rule set, you may want to reconsider playing Nids. Don’t mean to be harsh, but this is probably the most basic concept when playing Bugs. The best part is that we now have the tools to significantly increase our synapse range. I have admittedly lost synapse in latter parts of a game or two, and have paid for that lapse. Now it should be much easier to avoid the potentially devastating effects.
I also like the new psychic powers. We are now aligned with the BRB in terms of our powers being more random; I am ok with this. The new powers are also useful in several ways. I will detail some thoughts on the use of the new powers in future posts.
Next, I know that many will feel there is a lack of transport capacity in this codex. I would agree. It means that we will have to be more cognizant of ways to compensate for this. We still have the option of outflanking a few of our units. We still have some units that can burrow and jump out of holes. A few of our bug buddies can deep strike. Moreover, one of our troops, Hormagaunts, now have the potential to move-run a total of 15” with good run die (which we can reroll because they are fleet). For those units that do not have any of the above options, I would suggest that we find creative ways to protect them as they move to engage their gun-heavy opponents.
Last comment for this installment; I am very disappointed that there was not some inclusion of compensation for a lack of allies for Tyranids. Extra FOC slots, Genestealer Cults…something!! Nids are already a challenging army to be successful with. When I actually win, or even tie a game with the experienced players I throw down with, I always feel I have accomplished something. Not giving Tyranids the chance to even the playing field in terms of 6th edition allies seems a significant oversight. Something in the future? Maybe. But even my optimistic outlook on things doesn’t see it coming.
OK. First salvo fired. Lots more detailed analysis and commentary in the coming days and weeks. Have my first game with the new rules.
BTW good that more and more people are returning their Codex. Only message GW managers might understand.
The story of Old One Eye was copied verbatim from the previous book, as is true of much of the narrative. With the stable of exceptional writers that GW has, there should have been lots more new content. There was a bit scattered about, mostly with the new units. That I would have expected anyway. But with the existing units, there should have been much more new backstory for each. It just feels like laziness and trying to push this thing out the door
That's a bad sign. If they're literally copypasting fluff entries from the last book then they really did rush this thing.
Some Tomb World in some galaxy by that one thing in that one place (or Minnesota for nosy people)
People saying that this book is "good" or "better" need to look at it realistically, an army got many major nerfs with very miniscule buffs and now has the ability to lose in the first turn of playing at least a half knowledgavle opponent and almost insta lose to ig since their synapse is such a killer. You dont even really have to fight the nid army just fight the synapse and you win. If an ig army can easilly take out nids in one turn of shooting then what kind of "forging the narrative" is going on?
"Put your 1st best against you opponents 2nd best, your 2nd best against their 3rd best, and your 3rd best against their 1st best"-Sun Tzu's Art of War
"If your not winning, try a bigger sword! Usually works..."
The first line basically says "I'm pretending like the old books don't exist and this is something new *Rocks back and forth nervously"
Next part: "This book is soooooooooo pretty its worth the money I wasted" FUN FACT: there are lots of books with the same page count and pretty level that are hard cover for half the cost. Guess he also didn't notice the crap ton of typos. Pyrovores hitting every model on the table is interesting...
Next part: At least he is capable of disappointment.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2014/01/13 23:12:56
Rick Priestley said it best:
Bryan always said that if the studio ever had to mix with the manufacturing and sales part of the business it would destroy the studio. And I have to say – he wasn’t wrong there! The modern studio isn’t a studio in the same way; it isn’t a collection of artists and creatives sharing ideas and driving each other on. It’s become the promotions department of a toy company – things move on!
Medium of Death wrote: I never thought about returning Codex's. I'm surprised that most stores would honour that.
GWs mostly don't allow you to return books because of the plastic wrap, it counts as open product. But if you can deal with the hard time they give you you'll get it back. FLGS aren't that worried about it.
Rick Priestley said it best:
Bryan always said that if the studio ever had to mix with the manufacturing and sales part of the business it would destroy the studio. And I have to say – he wasn’t wrong there! The modern studio isn’t a studio in the same way; it isn’t a collection of artists and creatives sharing ideas and driving each other on. It’s become the promotions department of a toy company – things move on!
Well depending on a country at least in euro land you can return a lot of stuff . For some stuff you have even 30 days .
I have a funny story too . My friend that pre ordered some of the stuff , is happy about everything . Even the codex . And it is not the rules , its the actual book he is happy about . Somehow he got lucky and got a miss print one and 5 pages have this , I don't know how to call them in english, things . On the top and bottom corners which make the pages bigger . His codex evolved to be bigger then the other books.
Okay I made the tough decision to bite the bullet and keep this crap codex. I have decided to actually buy some new models and play with them, despite supporting this kind of rushed, hack job, money grabbing crap. I have no doubt that part of the reason this codex feels so bad is because it had to be modified due to the out come of the law suit with Chapter House. To those saying, "Look at this codex in a vacuum, or as a new player..." Cut the crap. You can not, in a game, take one piece of it, and make an educated opinion of it. You have to compare it to its precursors and its competitors. This codex is worse than the CSM codex and I do play CSM before anyone calls me on it, I was disappointed in the CSM codex, I am just floored with how bad the new Tyranid codex is.
I don't personally care that this codex is not on par with Eldar/Tau, I am just amazed that this codex hardly stacks up against the 5th edition Tyranid codex IN 5th! Not even considering what wonders the 6th BRB psychic powers brought nids, just in relation to 5th edition nids playing in 5th to the now 6th nids playing in 6th. This codex is just poorly written in every meaning of the phrase and the crunch is so horrible I scoff at the notion it was play tested.
Now, with that said, it is still not bad as far as power level goes. It will do just fine against anything short of Tau, Eldar, Screamstar, etc.
The problem is that the 5th codex was filled with unusably crap units and the 6th codex is filled with the exact same crap units. Except now, the powerful units of 5th were nerfed to make the terrible units seem more appealing. The problem with this codex is there was little thought put into a lot of the units. What am I supposed to do with Genestealers? Pyrovores? OOE and Deathleaper? Synapse is to important to let slide with two HQ options that don't have it.Hormagaunts are as bad as they have always been and in every way inferior to Termagaunts. Ripper Swarms? What, will anyone every consider using these? THEY WENT UP IN POINTS! Lictors are still bad.
I'm going to stop here but I hope I illustrated my point. It's like GW made no effort to make some of these units playable even at a casual level. They have sucked for years and will continue to suck for years, making the codex full of not must takes, but only options. My only options are to take the least terrible units, which can still work and can still make the army run. But there are just some units that make no sense and will never be taken in any list.
EDIT: Also, I would like to point out to some naysayers that the idea that Tyranids lost the ability to stack weapon biomorphs, read it again. Each pair of weapons counts as ONE weapon. Which means that a warriors with Rending Claws and LW/BS still get rending, insta death on 6's, and +3 initiative.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/01/13 23:34:18
Arbiter_Shade wrote: Okay I made the tough decision to bite the bullet and keep this crap codex. I have decided to actually buy some new models and play with them, despite supporting this kind of rushed, hack job, money grabbing crap. I have no doubt that part of the reason this codex feels so bad is because it had to be modified due to the out come of the law suit with Chapter House. To those saying, "Look at this codex in a vacuum, or as a new player..." Cut the crap. You can not, in a game, take one piece of it, and make an educated opinion of it. You have to compare it to its precursors and its competitors. This codex is worse than the CSM codex and I do play CSM before anyone calls me on it, I was disappointed in the CSM codex, I am just floored with how bad the new Tyranid codex is.
I don't personally care that this codex is not on par with Eldar/Tau, I am just amazed that this codex hardly stacks up against the 5th edition Tyranid codex IN 5th! Not even considering what wonders the 6th BRB psychic powers brought nids, just in relation to 5th edition nids playing in 5th to the now 6th nids playing in 6th. This codex is just poorly written in every meaning of the phrase and the crunch is so horrible I scoff at the notion it was play tested.
Now, with that said, it is still not bad as far as power level goes. It will do just fine against anything short of Tau, Eldar, Screamstar, etc.
The problem is that the 5th codex was filled with unusably crap units and the 6th codex is filled with the exact same crap units. Except now, the powerful units of 5th were nerfed to make the terrible units seem more appealing. The problem with this codex is there was little thought put into a lot of the units. What am I supposed to do with Genestealers? Pyrovores? OOE and Deathleaper? Synapse is to important to let slide with two HQ options that don't have it.Hormagaunts are as bad as they have always been and in every way inferior to Termagaunts. Ripper Swarms? What, will anyone every consider using these? THEY WENT UP IN POINTS! Lictors are still bad.
I'm going to stop here but I hope I illustrated my point. It's like GW made no effort to make some of these units playable even at a casual level. They have sucked for years and will continue to suck for years, making the codex full of not must takes, but only options. My only options are to take the least terrible units, which can still work and can still make the army run. But there are just some units that make no sense and will never be taken in any list.
We call this the apologetic stage of the cycle of abuse.
Rick Priestley said it best:
Bryan always said that if the studio ever had to mix with the manufacturing and sales part of the business it would destroy the studio. And I have to say – he wasn’t wrong there! The modern studio isn’t a studio in the same way; it isn’t a collection of artists and creatives sharing ideas and driving each other on. It’s become the promotions department of a toy company – things move on!
Kroothawk wrote: Seems, Natfka can't get it right even after the release :
Reader Review of the Tyranid Codex by Shadow of Prometheus on faeit212 (stuff).
Natfka stopped doing criticism after GW closed his site for a few days. Since then, everything is awesome. Escalation? Awesome. Supplements? Awesome. Centurions´ models? So beautiful. Everything GW does is a masterpiece. Not a single flaw is detected except the most glaring.
I still visit his page, but he is a vendor now.
BTW good that more and more people are returning their Codex. Only message GW managers might understand.
Good.
‘Your warriors will stand down and withdraw, Curze. That is an order, not a request. (…) When this campaign is won, you and I will have words’
Rogal Dorn, just before taking the beating of his life.
from The Dark King, by Graham McNeill.
I can't even believe I bought it, honestly, or was seriously considering starting Tyranids again. Maybe if I had paid more attention to the Tyranid rumor thread the past few days I could have dodged a $50 bullet...I've been working late and spending what little free time I have for the past week talking to my maybe future girlfriend, so I didn't see any of the copy/pasted info from the new book. I expected it to be bad, but I expected a lazy copy/paste of the 5th edition rulebook with point cost tweaks (all decreases) and the new units added in with rules designed to sell them. I really didn't think GW had the balls to make it any worse. But by God they did.
I've seen that some of the Rulebook art has made it's way in to the codex. Out of interest has anybody scanned through and identified new art? Or at least art that was not present in the last codex and isn't in the current 40k rulebook?
I wonder how the sales figures for Tyranids are doing? I think this has been the most negative release yet (in terms of online opinion) and I wonder if that's translating into substantial real world sales loss.
The more negative info. I hear about this book the more I want to pick it up. Morbid curiosity.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2014/01/14 00:08:49
Arbiter_Shade wrote: EDIT: Also, I would like to point out to some naysayers that the idea that Tyranids lost the ability to stack weapon biomorphs, read it again. Each pair of weapons counts as ONE weapon. Which means that a warriors with Rending Claws and LW/BS still get rending, insta death on 6's, and +3 initiative.
Perhaps you should read pg 51 of the BRB again about More than One Weapon. You can either get Rending or ID+INI, not both.
Medium of Death wrote: I've seen that some of the Rulebook art has made it's way in to the codex. Out of interest has anybody scanned through and identified new art? Or at least art that was not present in the last codex and isn't in the current 40k rulebook?
I wonder how the sales figures for Tyranids are doing? I think this has been the most negative release yet (in terms of online opinion) and I wonder if that's translating into substantial real world sales loss.
The more negative info. I hear about this book the more I want to pick it up. Morbid curiosity.
I don't think that the people they see as their main group of buyers goes around and reads stuff on forums , before they buy their models . Also because most of those people join in groups , no one wants to be left outside . So even if nids suck they will buy them , because you never one to be the only guy not playing the few other table top gamers from your school.
Arbiter_Shade wrote: EDIT: Also, I would like to point out to some naysayers that the idea that Tyranids lost the ability to stack weapon biomorphs, read it again. Each pair of weapons counts as ONE weapon. Which means that a warriors with Rending Claws and LW/BS still get rending, insta death on 6's, and +3 initiative.
Perhaps you should read pg 51 of the BRB again about More than One Weapon. You can either get Rending or ID+INI, not both.
You're right...I just got hopeful. I know, I shouldn't have with this codex.
no more armoured shell for the tyrant. that is true. but the tyrant is much better than before so im not complaining.
You take the Tyrant for his possibility to become the best type ever, Flying Monstrous Creature. Flying 24 inches forward an then shooting 12 shots twin-linked at a better Bs (Bs4) and str of 6. Being a more potent psyker than before with better deny the witch potential, 2 cast per turn and a shadow in the warp upgrade (loss of iron arm posibility which does really suck but hive mind powers are very decent). Whats great is even though its better than before, and it was our star player in the last dex, its now 30pts less!!! that is just amazing!!! plus it gets much better synergy from the rest of the codex since harpys and crones are a super viable option and distract the anti air shot of the opponent.
if people are not able to realise how good the flyrant now became than they will never be happy.
This message was edited 7 times. Last update was at 2014/01/14 06:41:56
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"Put your 1st best against you opponents 2nd best, your 2nd best against their 3rd best, and your 3rd best against their 1st best"-Sun Tzu's Art of War 
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