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+Hive Crone, one of the best flying monstrous creatures in the game.
Not much of a statement here, outside of the crone and harpy are there any other monsterous flying creatures in the game that aren't a special character?
You have the crone and harpy that means either one has a 50/50 chance of being "the best monsterous creature in the game" Just because if might be the only contender doesn't magically make it better. Flying vehicles which are the best comparison all tend to trump the flying creatures.
[/img]
The other FMCs are all Daemons (LoC, BTs, Flying Princes), and the Flyrant.
Which part of non-special character (HQ choice) did you not understand?
Please show me a MC flyer that isn't a HQ choice to compare with the crone or harpy so we can see if they are the best flyer in the game, I'll wait.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/01/19 19:15:34
Paulson Games parts are now at:
www.RedDogMinis.com
+Hive Crone, one of the best flying monstrous creatures in the game.
Not much of a statement here, outside of the crone and harpy are there any other monsterous flying creatures in the game that aren't a special character?
You have the crone and harpy that means either one has a 50/50 chance of being "the best monsterous creature in the game" Just because if might be the only contender doesn't magically make it better. Flying vehicles which are the best comparison all tend to trump the flying creatures.
[/img]
The other FMCs are all Daemons (LoC, BTs, Flying Princes), and the Flyrant.
Which part of special character (HQ choice) did you not understand?
Ah I thought you meant special character as in the rules definition, not an HQ choice.
Though Princes can be (re: always are) heavy support in a daemon army.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/01/19 19:14:47
Midnightdeathblade wrote: Think of a daemon incursion like a fart you don't quite trust... you could either toot a little puff of air, bellow a great effluvium, or utterly sh*t your pants and cry as it floods down your leg.
After hearing all the negativity about the new Nids dex I was not expecting much from a game I saw last night where Tau and Nids where facing off.
But Wow the Nids ate his lunch and raided his fridge for more! Especially that Death Leaper running amok in his back field!
Ruthlessness is the kindness of the wise.
>Raptors Lead the Way <
Zakiriel wrote: After hearing all the negativity about the new Nids dex I was not expecting much from a game I saw last night where Tau and Nids where facing off.
But Wow the Nids ate his lunch and raided his fridge for more! Especially that Death Leaper running amok in his back field!
Anecdote is not a synonym of evidence.
He won in spite of, not because of his book.
Midnightdeathblade wrote: Think of a daemon incursion like a fart you don't quite trust... you could either toot a little puff of air, bellow a great effluvium, or utterly sh*t your pants and cry as it floods down your leg.
Zakiriel wrote: After hearing all the negativity about the new Nids dex I was not expecting much from a game I saw last night where Tau and Nids where facing off.
But Wow the Nids ate his lunch and raided his fridge for more! Especially that Death Leaper running amok in his back field!
Anecdote is not a synonym of evidence.
He won in spite of, not because of his book.
Assertions are not evidence. They're possibly the one thing that's even less convincing than anecdotes.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/01/19 19:39:31
Zakiriel wrote: After hearing all the negativity about the new Nids dex I was not expecting much from a game I saw last night where Tau and Nids where facing off.
But Wow the Nids ate his lunch and raided his fridge for more! Especially that Death Leaper running amok in his back field!
Anecdote is not a synonym of evidence.
He won in spite of, not because of his book.
Assertions are not evidence.
Can you prove that the Tyranid codex is on an equal footing with the Tau book? I myself, being cynical, certainly don't buy into the laughable idea of GW having the competence to make a game without rather obvious tiers of "good, okay, bad".
Or can we say for certain that the Tau list was even being played competently or built properly?
His "evidence" is not only an anecdote, it is also such an incomplete one as to be useless.
Midnightdeathblade wrote: Think of a daemon incursion like a fart you don't quite trust... you could either toot a little puff of air, bellow a great effluvium, or utterly sh*t your pants and cry as it floods down your leg.
+Hive Crone, one of the best flying monstrous creatures in the game.
Not much of a statement here, outside of the crone and harpy are there any other monsterous flying creatures in the game that aren't a special character?
You have the crone and harpy that means either one has a 50/50 chance of being "the best monsterous creature in the game" Just because if might be the only contender doesn't magically make it better. Flying vehicles which are the best comparison all tend to trump the flying creatures.
It's still a damn good unit, close to a Heldrake if you ask me, and it also gives us much-needed anti-air.
+Carnifexes, Mawlocs and Tyrannofexes get significant points decreases.
They were unplayable before, now they are playable but still a bit lackluster and they all compete for the same slots.
They weren't "unplayable", just sub-optimal and overcosted. They've been hugely improved by the new 'dex- a Tyrannofex with regeneration is an absolutely beastly, nigh-indestructible linebreaker for less than a Land Raider.
+Zoanthropes andVenomthropes both get points decreases and massive buffs.
The Venomthropes are better but still fragile, Zoanthropes I totally disagree on all or nothing warplance is not good and no access to non-tyranid powers is major downgrade.
Umm...Warp Blast/Lance is exactly the same as before. The only difference is AP2 instead of AP1. Plus, in a brood they can get plenty of shots, and they can take an extra power as well as the Warp blast/Lance, whereas they had to replace it before. Also, as mentioned above, most BRB powers were kinda meh anyway.
+Termagaunts are now dirt cheap.
+Hormagaunts are also cheaper, although giving them Toxin Sacs brings them to the same cost as before.
And are worse than ever due to the severity of the new IB rules. You get a points reduction for them being naked, if you equip them as their previous version there's no change. So you get a larger disadvantage than before with for no benefit, what a great change.[/quote}
Then may I suggest you follow the single most important bit of tactics advice when playing Tyranids (of ANY edition) and not let them out of Synapse range? Keeping everything in Synapse range has always been the lynchpin of Tyranid tactics.
+Old One Eye and Deathleaper are now HQ, which is cool.
Maybe ignoring the fact they are HQ units without synapse, so mostly useless in fulfilling a leadership role. Isn't leadership supposed to be the point of HQ units? In order to make either of them effective you need to baby sit them with another synapse which ups the overall points and reliance on another fragile unit. What an awesome deal.
On the other hand it is much more fluff-friendly, as Old One Eye was a living rallying point for the surviving Tyranids on Calth, and Deathleaper is meant as a vanguard leader/master assassin.
-Slight points increases on a few units, the only really significant one being the Tervigon.
-No BRB powers.
-No more Mycetic Spores (although they were useless on most units anyway).
-Ymgarl Genestealers are gone (not much use to begin with).
-Parasite of Mortrex is gone (totally useless anyway, who cares?).
-Doom of Malan'Tai is gone (OK, this one IS kinda sad).
What exactly is the problem again?
think you just quoted a large part of it right there, plus you glossed over several others.
These are all rather minor problems with what is otherwise a fairly decent book. I mean, it's not an amazing book, but it's certainly playable.
I'll recap for you:
Again, unfunny image macros, and not supplying any real argument beyond "lol it sux".
Try again.
Squigsquasher, resident ban magnet, White Knight, and general fethwit.
buddha wrote: I've decided that these GW is dead/dying threads that pop up every-week must be followers and cultists of nurgle perpetuating the need for decay. I therefore declare that that such threads are heresy and subject to exterminatus. So says the Inquisition!
Most of the lists in pre-new book 6e were heavily reliant on biomancy and the codex powers certainly don't match the buffing madness of biomancy.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/01/19 19:50:02
Midnightdeathblade wrote: Think of a daemon incursion like a fart you don't quite trust... you could either toot a little puff of air, bellow a great effluvium, or utterly sh*t your pants and cry as it floods down your leg.
The centre of a massive brood chamber, heaving and pulsating.
Kain wrote: The loss of BRB powers is hardly a "minor" loss.
Most of the lists in pre-new book 6e were heavily reliant on biomancy and the codex powers certainly don't match the buffing madness of biomancy.
I shall quote one of my favourite lines in reference to the Tyranids:
Adapt or Die.
Squigsquasher, resident ban magnet, White Knight, and general fethwit.
buddha wrote: I've decided that these GW is dead/dying threads that pop up every-week must be followers and cultists of nurgle perpetuating the need for decay. I therefore declare that that such threads are heresy and subject to exterminatus. So says the Inquisition!
Kain wrote: The loss of BRB powers is hardly a "minor" loss.
Most of the lists in pre-new book 6e were heavily reliant on biomancy and the codex powers certainly don't match the buffing madness of biomancy.
I shall quote one of my favourite lines in reference to the Tyranids:
Adapt or Die.
Completely invalidating the playstyle of the majority is hardly an example of good updating procedure. You instead encourage other playstyles to develop by making them just as viable.
I'm of the school of "if everything is overpowered, nothing is." So everything should be built to the over the top standards of taudar rather than pretend nothing's wrong and keep on building things to a lower standard. If every unit was made to the standards of the riptide and baledrake, the game would be a lot more balanced.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/01/19 19:54:21
Midnightdeathblade wrote: Think of a daemon incursion like a fart you don't quite trust... you could either toot a little puff of air, bellow a great effluvium, or utterly sh*t your pants and cry as it floods down your leg.
This is awesome! Really sums up how i feel in one picture. Obviously its not all bad, but overall i'm sure we are all disappointed by whats happened. I think this picture will be around for a long time to come.
Zakiriel wrote: After hearing all the negativity about the new Nids dex I was not expecting much from a game I saw last night where Tau and Nids where facing off.
But Wow the Nids ate his lunch and raided his fridge for more! Especially that Death Leaper running amok in his back field!
Waite they didn't marker light him to death the next turn? Thats kinda what i figured would be his fate against tau, this is good to hear!
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/01/19 20:02:51
Most of the "won" games are probably against inexperienced players. I was just told that Nids got an amazing victory. This is the conversation:
GW employee: *describes marine army he just rofl stomped*
Me: Wait, hold on, orange marines? Tall lanky kid?
GWE: Yes why?
Me: He doesn't even own a rulebook...
Rick Priestley said it best:
Bryan always said that if the studio ever had to mix with the manufacturing and sales part of the business it would destroy the studio. And I have to say – he wasn’t wrong there! The modern studio isn’t a studio in the same way; it isn’t a collection of artists and creatives sharing ideas and driving each other on. It’s become the promotions department of a toy company – things move on!
Kain wrote: The loss of BRB powers is hardly a "minor" loss.
Most of the lists in pre-new book 6e were heavily reliant on biomancy and the codex powers certainly don't match the buffing madness of biomancy.
I shall quote one of my favourite lines in reference to the Tyranids:
Adapt or Die.
Completely invalidating the playstyle of the majority is hardly an example of good updating procedure. You instead encourage other playstyles to develop by making them just as viable.
I'm of the school of "if everything is overpowered, nothing is." So everything should be built to the over the top standards of taudar rather than pretend nothing's wrong and keep on building things to a lower standard. If every unit was made to the standards of the riptide and baledrake, the game would be a lot more balanced.
As much as I hate to agree, this does make sense.
What I think may have happened is that GW realized how absurd the last two alien codices were, so they over compensated by making the last one underwhelming. What they should have done is just go bat-gak and gave all of the TMCs T7 with EW. Or just re-release the 4th ed codex and update that to 6th ed.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/01/19 20:05:43
What I have
~4100
~1660
Westwood lives in death!
Peace through power!
A longbeard when it comes to Necrons and WHFB. Grumble Grumble
You have some pretty skewed ideas on what made Nids work. You can have fun games with them and jerk it to the fluff all you want but they won't be competitive in the current environment.
The adapt or die line is cute, the problem is that in order to adapt to a different strategy you need to be given options within the rules first. GW decided to nerf everything that previously worked while not giving any proper options to replace it with.
Paulson Games parts are now at:
www.RedDogMinis.com
You have some pretty skewed ideas on what made Nids work. You can have fun games with them and jerk it to the fluff all you want but they won't be competitive in the current environment.
The adapt or die line is cute, the problem is that in order to adapt to a different strategy you need to be given options within the rules first. GW decided to nerf everything that previously worked while not giving any proper options to replace it with.
If anything they removed a few amount of options that nids had for playstyles (such as spore armies)
"Put your 1st best against you opponents 2nd best, your 2nd best against their 3rd best, and your 3rd best against their 1st best"-Sun Tzu's Art of War
"If your not winning, try a bigger sword! Usually works..."
JSF wrote:... this is really quite an audacious move by GW, throwing out any pretext that this is a game and that its customers exist to do anything other than buy their overpriced products for the sake of it. The naked arrogance, greed and contempt for their audience is shocking.
You have some pretty skewed ideas on what made Nids work. You can have fun games with them and jerk it to the fluff all you want but they won't be competitive in the current environment.
The adapt or die line is cute, the problem is that in order to adapt to a different strategy you need to be given options within the rules first. GW decided to nerf everything that previously worked while not giving any proper options to replace it with.
If anything they removed a few amount of options that nids had for playstyles (such as spore armies)
Yep, im expecting monobuilds out of this codex. Chances are we might get something good out of one of the three datalsates, if we do it will probably be better to the point where people just spam it out like eldar to try to be competitive. It would be nice to have a few different types of units that can hold their own so we can swap around what type of army we want to play and still have a chance.
40K has never, NEVER been intended as a majorly competitive game. Quite frankly I find the concept of playing any game, tabletop or otherwise, "competitively" to be utterly slowed, but when the CREATORS of the game have outright stated that it's designed for casual/fluffy games, it's laughable. 40K's selling point has never been amazing, revolutionary gameplay, it's the universe and the backstory (and the models) that everybody loves, and is why people play the game. As a similar example, take EarthBound; gameplay-wise it's an unremarkable RPG. What sells it is the quirky world, funny characters and charming atmosphere (and a certain nightmare-inducing eldritch abomination).
TL;DR: If you'r eplaying 40K because you want a competitive, perfectly balanced game then you're playing the wrong game, and should probably go play chess instead.
Squigsquasher, resident ban magnet, White Knight, and general fethwit.
buddha wrote: I've decided that these GW is dead/dying threads that pop up every-week must be followers and cultists of nurgle perpetuating the need for decay. I therefore declare that that such threads are heresy and subject to exterminatus. So says the Inquisition!
If anything they removed a few amount of options that nids had for playstyles (such as spore armies)
Pulling the spores out was a very painful move IMO as it eliminated a very sound tactic for dealing with vehicles armor. Being able to drop a fex or zoans into threat range was a huge boost, now everything has to foot slog and pray they can last long enough to get in range which is really tough against Guard and Tau.
I also find the elimination of the spores to be terribly un-fluffy, part of the image built around Tyranids was that the massive waves of them falling from the sky and erupting from the ground. It would be like eliminating pods from the space marines, or armor from guard which is something that is well established in the fluff as being a primary invasion tactic.
Paulson Games parts are now at:
www.RedDogMinis.com
SickSix wrote: How many people crying "the sky is falling" have actually played with the new book?
"Sky is falling" or this is worse? I play Tomb Kings too, and despite Cruddace's work to make me hate everything about both armies I play, they CAN win.
Does that make them good books? Does that prove they are worth paying more for DLC supplements to add what was missing in the first place? Does that mean that in spite of people thinking it is sub-par work, they should start lying about legitimate issues?
editing to add: No one I have played against has much of a chance if we switch armies and play - few want to. I ROFL stomp them when they use mine. I have lost. . .I think. Bear in mind I just said I win with Tyranids and Tomb Kings, and it is not rare.
This message was edited 6 times. Last update was at 2014/01/19 20:22:45
"It is not the bullet with your name on it that should worry you, it's the one labeled "To whom it may concern. . ."
SickSix wrote: How many people crying "the sky is falling" have actually played with the new book?
I have...it's essentially resetting the nid book back to what it was during 5e. Can work under skilled hands. but faces an uphill battle against most of the top tier lists and has some rather glaring, exploitable holes in it.
It's not horrific, but it's incredibly underwhelming and another example of why Cruddace should stick to Space Marines and Guardsmen.
Midnightdeathblade wrote: Think of a daemon incursion like a fart you don't quite trust... you could either toot a little puff of air, bellow a great effluvium, or utterly sh*t your pants and cry as it floods down your leg.
Hey I'd argue certain games can be competitive . If not, there is no such thing as competitive (besides school grades and jobs (not counting sports either as if a game can't be competitive neither can sports )).
Just to say this quickly, I have no gripes with people playing the game competitively. If that is what tickles your fancy, have a blast! But I must say, I never got how being designed for casua/fluffy games suddenly meant it was fine to throw away the notion of ballance! Think about it. What's fun about an unbalanced game. Want to know what is fluffy? A friggin Thousand Son army let alone a Tzeentchian Space Marine army. Do it I dare you. Play it 0 chaos daemon allies and no other superior marks. Play it and watch as every enemy curb stomps you 90% of the time. Do you think that's fun? Do you think that's intriguing? I don't think anybody is expecting perfect balance as perfect balance is impossible. Especially for something as big as 40k. When you have several armies that all exist at once there is absolutely zero way to truly balance them out. But you know what? That doesn't mean that they should not strive. Codices made for competitive functions are entertaining because that means my ccasual/fluffy games become balanced! No longer do I have to fear my friend is thinking of buying 3 riptides because he likes the models all the while I think oh god I'm playing CSM and I don't even use Heldrakes how they feth will I take that on with my codex without succumbing to freakin nurgle? I don't want every game to be a victory, heck, I hate it when I have a crushing victory but seriously.... Do you think this game is balanced for casual/fluffy games? It's not! The rules are so horribly developed that one Tzeentch chariot becomes outright unplayable as it can only fire when not moving except it has AV10 all sides and is a close ranged shooter!
40K has never, NEVER been intended as a majorly competitive game. Quite frankly I find the concept of playing any game, tabletop or otherwise, "competitively" to be utterly slowed, but when the CREATORS of the game have outright stated that it's designed for casual/fluffy games, it's laughable. 40K's selling point has never been amazing, revolutionary gameplay, it's the universe and the backstory (and the models) that everybody loves, and is why people play the game. As a similar example, take EarthBound; gameplay-wise it's an unremarkable RPG. What sells it is the quirky world, funny characters and charming atmosphere (and a certain nightmare-inducing eldritch abomination).
TL;DR: If you'r eplaying 40K because you want a competitive, perfectly balanced game then you're playing the wrong game, and should probably go play chess instead.
Ah yes, because the game was always competitively awful, GW should spend no effort into not making it so, and anyone who disagrees with this notion clearly should just play other games because they don't get the game. Well guys, thread's over, because we don't deserve to complain because GW shouldn't be expected to competently manage it's product like any other business. Nope, just better take it or leave because that's what REAL 40kers do.
Midnightdeathblade wrote: Think of a daemon incursion like a fart you don't quite trust... you could either toot a little puff of air, bellow a great effluvium, or utterly sh*t your pants and cry as it floods down your leg.
Oh and okay then so if you want a fluffy game let's have it. My 3000 points of SM surprise ambushing your IG/Tau/whatever. You can pick from 1000 points ol' pal! (let's be honest, it is always humerous that SM, Eldar, DE, Tau are always equal points to the enemy. Think about it. Every single one of these bases their army around primarily ambushes, surprise attacks, and shock trooping (you could also add CSM to this last as well actually) yet every last time they have equal points! It's rather silly but imagine this game without it xD)
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/01/19 20:28:47
Squigsquasher wrote: 40K has never, NEVER been intended as a majorly competitive game.
I'm not talking about being competitive in a tournament sense. I'm talking about having enough internal balance so it's not a one sided blow out even in "friendly" and "fun" games. It isn't much fun when your army exists solely to serve as a shooting gallery for the opponent.
No wargame is ever completely balanced unless both sides are playing perfect mirrors, but you can establish enough of a balance that it keeps it engaging and fun for both players. Currently Tyranids are like playing a game like monopoly where each player gets a d6 for movement but you only get a d4, you also get 30% less starting funds. Yes you can still play and with godly luck you may even win, but the reality is you are at a large disadvantage from the beginning and most games you'll curl up and die before you ever get the chance to participate beyond being a token presence.
.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/01/19 20:33:50
Paulson Games parts are now at:
www.RedDogMinis.com
Saying 40K isn't meant to be competitive reminds me of the time Kevin Smith said Jersey Girl wasn't meant for critics.
When you're say that a game with a victory condition between two players using a collection, that they've invested a lot of time and money into, is not meant to be competitive then you're effectively saying the game is a festering pile of broken rules and imbalanced units.
There are games that aren't competitive. Like Munchkin. But Munchkin doesn't cost an arm and a leg and require I dedicate hours into painting, and space for all the models and painting supplies.
I'm expecting an Imperial Knights supplement dedicated to GW's loyalist apologetics. Codex: White Knights "In the grim dark future, everything is fine."
"The argument is that we have to do this or we will, bit by bit,
lose everything that we hold dear, everything that keeps the business going. Our crops will wither, our children will die piteous
deaths and the sun will be swept from the sky."
-Tom Kirby
You have some pretty skewed ideas on what made Nids work. You can have fun games with them and jerk it to the fluff all you want but they won't be competitive in the current environment.
The adapt or die line is cute, the problem is that in order to adapt to a different strategy you need to be given options within the rules first. GW decided to nerf everything that previously worked while not giving any proper options to replace it with.
If anything they removed a few amount of options that nids had for playstyles (such as spore armies)
Yep, im expecting monobuilds out of this codex. Chances are we might get something good out of one of the three datalsates, if we do it will probably be better to the point where people just spam it out like eldar to try to be competitive. It would be nice to have a few different types of units that can hold their own so we can swap around what type of army we want to play and still have a chance.
Competitive wise that will be no different to last edition, or any competitive army. Competitive armies take there best units and stick as many as possible in, up to the point they can not sacrifice any more utility. The only real competitive problem the codex will have is keeping synapse up (should it need it)
Non- Competitive there are different play styles still, and viable units depending on what your wanting to do, there are more viable units than the last codex - I know people don't think much of points decreases but in this case this has made units viable which were just too costly for utility previously. The only type which was lost was spodding in. If you want something similar now outflank the devigants. Others are based around pinning etc, and this is without the formations.
I played a competitive 1850 WS list today - and while I did lose I can happily say
-It was tight enough for me to remain confident - and look forward to the rematch.
-I was trying out new units and know what to adjust out - Was not well optimised running 1 of many things (Including 1 FHT, GS, 1 Crone. etc)
-I played bad, forgot too many normal things (Like.. moving) while trying to remember new things. Resulting in bad things happening.
-I am inexperienced against W.Scars (In general. Assault a TC (Oh that has a flamer... Oh super... Oh whut roll 6 is ID? Glad I charged him)
Non competitive the codex will not have a problem power wise.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/01/19 20:41:35
40K has never, NEVER been intended as a majorly competitive game. Quite frankly I find the concept of playing any game, tabletop or otherwise, "competitively" to be utterly slowed, but when the CREATORS of the game have outright stated that it's designed for casual/fluffy games, it's laughable.
So, why do they even include point costs?
Why not just tell players they can use whatever they like?
blood reaper wrote: I will respect human rights and trans people but I will never under any circumstances use the phrase 'folks' or 'ya'll'. I would rather be killed by firing squad.
the_scotsman wrote: Yeah, when i read the small novel that is the Death Guard unit options and think about resolving the attacks from a melee-oriented min size death guard squad, the thing that springs to mind is "Accessible!"
Argive wrote: GW seems to have a crystal ball and just pulls hairbrained ideas out of their backside for the most part.
You're not. If you're worried about your opponent using 'fake' rules, you're having fun the wrong way. This hobby isn't about rules. It's about buying Citadel miniatures.
Please report to your nearest GW store for attitude readjustment. Take your wallet.
>Raptors Lead the Way < 
~4100
~1660
"Put your 1st best against you opponents 2nd best, your 2nd best against their 3rd best, and your 3rd best against their 1st best"-Sun Tzu's Art of War 
2k
500 
. If not, there is no such thing as competitive (besides school grades and jobs (not counting sports either as if a game can't be competitive neither can sports 
/ 
1690
WIP (1875)
1300
760
WIP (350)
WIP (150) 
(let's be honest, it is always humerous that 
