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How would you guys rate their performance in the tournament scene for a competative Daemons army? Mainly how do they stack up to WoC and OK?

A good high elf player with the banner of the world cheater will beat you everytime.

Grix wrote:
How would you guys rate their performance in the tournament scene for a competative Daemons army? Mainly how do they stack up to WoC and OK?

Kurgle wall, (ie: Plaguebears w/Regen BSB + 3x Beast units + double Khannon, led by a LoC or Kipper w/Eternal Beatstick) is ruthless. It's only huge weakness is that your majority Nurgle units are heinously prone to eating P.Suns/Pit 'o Shades thanks to low initiative.
It's also a boring army to play with after the first 5 games because it's really just nothing more than removing war machines/chaffing up the biggest enemy threat between 2x solo/paired Beasts + 2-3x 5 Furies and then ramming Plaguebearer brick(s) + 4-6 Beast unit down your opponent's throat.
Change it up a little by adding Epidemius + a Nurgle Grinder w/Stone Thrower upgrade and it becomes even meaner thanks to The Tally of Pestilence making Nurgle units nearly impossible to kill.

OR

Slaanesh Cacobomb. Basically take a Lv4 Kipper w/Eternal Beatstick (aka Eternal Blade), use Lore of Slaanesh and screen it/he/she with a unit of 4-6 Fiends. 4 rolls pretty much guarantees you get Cacophonic Choir - easily the most broken spell in the game!
Turn 1, march up 20" into the middle of your opponent's battle line, pop off a 6-diced Caco and if successful, you auto-delete most/all their chaff & basically auto-win the Movement phase for the rest of the game, AND likely grow a rather obnoxious number of new Fiends to add to the screening unit thanks to the Lore attribute!

Just make sure you park your vehicle well away from the event venue in order to avoid angry opponents slashing your tires... (if they don't set your army on fire first of course! )


The biggest problem with competitive Daemons however is the Reign of Comedy table. It will happen that this thing will screw you over, and overall it tends to be just as bad, if not slightly worse for you as it is for your opponent.

Nothing will ruin you as quickly as rolling a 4 for winds, while snake-eyes turn 1 or 2 pretty much auto-removes most/all your chaff units and hands the Movement phase to your opponent "just because."
Rolling an 8, which is pretty common, is also annoying for how often it can insta-fry your Skull Cannon(s).

The other huge detriment to competitive Daemons is that we cannot take a Dispel Scroll. Not having that safety net is a huge blow as it means you're simply not as competitive in the Magic phase as everyone else.
While you can mitigate your opponent's magical abilities by knowing which spell(s) to let through and which ones to stop, there's always those times when no amount of smart play on your part can save you. An opponent rolling a 2,2 or 3,3 is awful, simply because there's no way you'll stop a 4 or 6 dice casting with only 2 or 3 dice in return outside of getting lucky and rolling boxcars.
Against smart opponents, this will sadly cost you games.

JWhex wrote:
A good high elf player with the banner of the world cheater will beat you everytime.

Pretty much...

If you run into a Light Coven build led by the Everqueen it's pretty much an auto-loss unless you're running the Cacobomb. (at least you can score some pts for taking their chaff units and maybe smaller heavy cav/skirmisher units out of play)

Don't listen to all the nay-saying. Daemons are fine. It's true that you COULD run into 626's Alarielle List (I've never seen one anywhere other than in her worst nightmares, and I travel for Cons.. and most tourneys disallow special characters anyways.) or even High Elves with WDB in general, but it's one unit to have to deal with creatively. Yes, it's true that unit could be a huge unit but that's the exception than the rule. (Usually it clocks in at 350ish points with 30-40 models)

Reign of Chaos isn't bad either. Don't believe this.

The biggest problem with competitive Daemons however is the Reign of Comedy table. It will happen that this thing will screw you over, and overall it tends to be just as bad, if not slightly worse for you as it is for your opponent.

Yes, you can lose a guy to it, but everything you have gives a ward save vs the results and only a fraction of your army is going to take the hit unless you mono-build. (Even then, you only have 1 result that deals wounds.)

It's true you can lose some ward saves (Which is terrible for you) but it's a great asset to have most of the time as the odds are in your favor especially on the damage dealing results.


The Caco-Bomb and Skill Khannon/Nurgle list is gross, so much so that many people take death now because of it + Ogres + Undead armies. Picking on initiative is just too good not to do. That said, some armies will literally have no answer for yours.

Demons do well in tournaments, but are shoe-horned into a couple of lists. Usually too much deviation leads to an average strength armies, and people don't like using those in tournaments!

Grix wrote:
How would you guys rate their performance in the tournament scene for a competative Daemons army? Mainly how do they stack up to WoC and OK?

You can do a search on results. I almost always see them top 5 somewhere. Really, I think a testament to this edition is the top 3 always seems to change.

I think WoC and OK are great armies but they are great armies in casual play. Maybe because they are relatively simple. I don't know. Tournament play seems like a different animal. Sometimes people win by coming up with a strategy that hasn't been done (much) and surprising people. But you can guarantee there WILL be test-or-die spells in tournaments and those will wipe out OK.

So again, just cruising some of the last tournaments, I saw some pretty oddball winners. I think because no one was prepared to fight them.

The reign of chaos CAN screw you over, a good elf player with the banner WILL destroy you assuming that you are both equal in skill and have a clue about the game.

No dispel scroll is a disadvantage but not a crippling one.

In my experience most tourneys do allow named characters but I never really run into the elf ones much.

Personally I wouldnt leave the demons at home on account of the table or no dispel scroll. If I am going to a tourney with the goal of winning I am not taking my demons, beastmen or lizardmen at this time, I will take skaven which at least have the possibility of winning every game. If your going to a tourney to have a laugh and a few games, really any army will do.

The demons are competitive in general but if you are going for the win you do run the risk of encountering the botwd on your way to the top table as the high elves are a very good combined arms force and any sensible elf player will have the banner because it is so good for many reasons besides screwing demons.

One way of dealing with the banner is to make a huge plaguebearer unit and put it in the portaglyph if facing the banner. Then just play the point denial game if you encounter a high elf player. I dont recommend this in nontourney games though as its really a tournament spoiler strategy. I dont mind the spoiler role against utterly broken stuff in a tournament.

 Thunderfrog wrote:

The biggest problem with competitive Daemons however is the Reign of Comedy table. It will happen that this thing will screw you over, and overall it tends to be just as bad, if not slightly worse for you as it is for your opponent.

Yes, you can lose a guy to it, but everything you have gives a ward save vs the results and only a fraction of your army is going to take the hit unless you mono-build. (Even then, you only have 1 result that deals wounds.)

It's true you can lose some ward saves (Which is terrible for you) but it's a great asset to have most of the time as the odds are in your favor especially on the damage dealing results.

Wrong - results 2 & 3 on the table allow no saves of any kind vs. those wounds.
Rolling a snake-eyes is typically removing a rank bonus from a block, while it auto-removes Furies & can easily cripple solo Beasts/Khannons/Grinder, etc... I've lost half my freaking army to that result more than once!
Rolling a 3 is fairly likely to nuke a Herald seeing as they're only 2 wound characters, and they're often quite vital to the unit you join them to.

And while the 'Dark Prince Thirsts' result does allow ward saves, due to the way the army's General/BSB rules work, it's almost always instant death to those Khannons as they're testing Ld7 on 3D6. (with no IP or BSB re-rolls)

The higher results in no way make up for the total screw package the lower results are - loss of entire Magic phase + crippling effect.
And unlike the 40k version of the table, we have no Instrument bonus to help us with the God Storms accuracy. (or else to keep them off of our own stuff!)

Experiment 626 wrote:
And while the 'Dark Prince Thirsts' result does allow ward saves, due to the way the army's General/BSB rules work, it's almost always instant death to those Khannons as they're testing Ld7 on 3D6. (with no IP or BSB re-rolls)

As always, in cases of DoC, 626's words are basically worthless. Let's go over this.

-Chance of dark on RoC: 13.89%
-Chance of being forced to roll for each Kannon: 16.67%
-Chance of doing enough wounds - LD * Ward to instantly kill a 4 wound Kannon (no IP/BRB) = 25.93%

So the chance of starting at the RoC and killing a Kannon is 0.6%. I.e., 6/10ths of 1%.


Any of your other rolls in any normal combat round have vastly more impact than that.

I do enjoy me a dismantling where "almost always instant death" becomes a 0.6% chance ( as far as I understood it, ) but I'm puzzled by why you think "6/10th of 1%" is easier to grasp than "0.6%".

(6‰ I would have accepted )

Out of complete interest, is 'Caco-Bomb' the only real slaanesh tournament-viable tactic? how about casual play, are mono-slaanesh any good at all? or are they really pidgeonholed in to Caco-Bomb to be able to do anything?

 Purifier wrote:
I do enjoy me a dismantling where "almost always instant death" becomes a 0.6% chance ( as far as I understood it, ) but I'm puzzled by why you think "6/10th of 1%" is easier to grasp than "0.6%".

(6‰ I would have accepted )

This comes from me working in business for a while. Common people very often mistake 25% and .25%. They of course being orders of magnitude different. I think the big reason is because almost everyone deals with whole number percentages in everyday life. You know, half off. Or 25% off. But rarely are people working in basis points unless they do something financial or technical. So putting .25% they often still view as 25 percent.

 Rumpelstiltskin wrote:
Out of complete interest, is 'Caco-Bomb' the only real slaanesh tournament-viable tactic? how about casual play, are mono-slaanesh any good at all? or are they really pidgeonholed in to Caco-Bomb to be able to do anything?

For tournaments, yes. For friendly play, Slaanesh is decent as an MMU/MSU styled army.

It's main problem is cracking 2+ and 1+ saves since most everything is simply S3 with armour piercing. So if you end up facing a lot of heavy cavalry and/or T4+ units, you start to really rely on Lore of Shadow to help you out. (Mindrazor for cracking everything, Miasma & Withering to nuke Movement + Toughness)

The other big problem is that Slaanesh Heralds are pure poop in combat. T3/W2 with only a 5++ is awful for a combat hero, as anyone with half a brain will simply devote attacks into them. But you really want these ladies because they do provide some critical synergy.
Lesser Locus makes you outright immune to all the 'test or die' spells, the Greater Locus is expensive for a character you can't viably protect but ASF is godly this edition. And a Lv1 Shadow wizard is always handy for added Miasma castings to nuke your opponent's Movement.

Outside of Cacophonic Choir being 100% game-breaking and the Kipper being the best Greater Daemon option, Slaanesh is behind Nurgle in terms of overall power level.
However, you're still light years ahead of Khorne & Tzeentch who are simply awful in this book.

 DukeRustfield wrote:

 Purifier wrote:
I do enjoy me a dismantling where "almost always instant death" becomes a 0.6% chance ( as far as I understood it, ) but I'm puzzled by why you think "6/10th of 1%" is easier to grasp than "0.6%".

(6‰ I would have accepted )

This comes from me working in business for a while. Common people very often mistake 25% and .25%. They of course being orders of magnitude different. I think the big reason is because almost everyone deals with whole number percentages in everyday life. You know, half off. Or 25% off. But rarely are people working in basis points unless they do something financial or technical. So putting .25% they often still view as 25 percent.

Cool, sounds like an easy way to draw business in. 0.99% off everything in the store!

Outside of Cacophonic Choir being 100% game-breaking and the Kipper being the best Greater Daemon option, Slaanesh is behind Nurgle in terms of overall power level. However, you're still light years ahead of Khorne & Tzeentch who are simply awful in this book.

Not exactly.

Khorne isn't that far behind. Bloodletters are still decent, especially against Knights and Warriors with high armor saves. Flesh Hounds aren't bad for their points when you consider how strong they are vs the average ambusher.

And while its true you get no magic, Bloodthirsters will kill almost anything in one round.

Then there's Khannons and those are so good they go in non-khorne lists anyways.

In my opinion Khorne is great in a non-mono list, weaknesses of no IP non-withstanding.

Experiment 626 wrote:

 Rumpelstiltskin wrote:
Out of complete interest, is 'Caco-Bomb' the only real slaanesh tournament-viable tactic? how about casual play, are mono-slaanesh any good at all? or are they really pidgeonholed in to Caco-Bomb to be able to do anything?

For tournaments, yes. For friendly play, Slaanesh is decent as an MMU/MSU styled army.

It's main problem is cracking 2+ and 1+ saves since most everything is simply S3 with armour piercing. So if you end up facing a lot of heavy cavalry and/or T4+ units, you start to really rely on Lore of Shadow to help you out. (Mindrazor for cracking everything, Miasma & Withering to nuke Movement + Toughness)

The other big problem is that Slaanesh Heralds are pure poop in combat. T3/W2 with only a 5++ is awful for a combat hero, as anyone with half a brain will simply devote attacks into them. But you really want these ladies because they do provide some critical synergy.
Lesser Locus makes you outright immune to all the 'test or die' spells, the Greater Locus is expensive for a character you can't viably protect but ASF is godly this edition. And a Lv1 Shadow wizard is always handy for added Miasma castings to nuke your opponent's Movement.

Outside of Cacophonic Choir being 100% game-breaking and the Kipper being the best Greater Daemon option, Slaanesh is behind Nurgle in terms of overall power level.
However, you're still light years ahead of Khorne & Tzeentch who are simply awful in this book.

Ah that's interesting/helpful information there, thanks = ) Although Thunderfrog debated how bad Khorne are - is there any particular reason why Tzeentch are SO bad (it does seem pretty generally accepted), from what I've been reading all the hatred just seems to be centered around Warpflame. Just seems such a pity if they're that bad, with having such weird nice models!

 Purifier wrote:
Cool, sounds like an easy way to draw business in. 0.99% off everything in the store!

I remember a LONG time ago being at a gaming convention and it was the last day of the con and one of the vendors, trying to clear out their remaining stock, put up a poster saying everything was ".50% of original cover price." A guy pointed out the error, but he did it in a real snotty fashion. He asked if he could get an extra discount for letting them know they had to correct the poster and he was told "no."

 Rumpelstiltskin wrote:


Ah that's interesting/helpful information there, thanks = ) Although Thunderfrog debated how bad Khorne are - is there any particular reason why Tzeentch are SO bad (it does seem pretty generally accepted), from what I've been reading all the hatred just seems to be centered around Warpflame. Just seems such a pity if they're that bad, with having such weird nice models!

Khorne is bad simply because outside of the Khannon, anything his units can do others do just as well and/or much better. (and usually for cheaper to boot!)
Bloodcrushers & Bloodletters especially have 0 reason to actually exist in this book. Even Flesh Hounds are debatable when paired Beasts or Seekers and even Screamers or Nurglings are options. (and none of those fear seeing the Dark Prince Thirsts result on the RoC table either!)



Tzeentch is awful simply because he's too hamstrung by bad rules & units.

Horrors led by cheap Exalted Locus Tzheralds are solid since they help fill out the 'Core Tax' and can be tailored to provide some magical artillery. (ie: roll the Tzherald spells first so you can ensure Gateway/Firestorm on your Pinkies)
The Horrors' only problem being that their effectiveness is entirely linked to the spell they get since Tzeentch lore overall is awful for them... They want to be blasting stuff, but only 2-3 of their possible spells really let them do so. Thus if you don't know what you're doing, it's super easy to have a 200-300+ point unit that can't actually do anything! (yay, my Lv1 wizard unit can cast Glean... except they're Lv1, can only ever do a single wound per cast and won't ever steal a spell because they're only a Lv1 wizard. )
Add to this the problem that in a mono army, your Core becomes exponentially worse at higher pts levels due to the lack of viable spells available to them. Really, after you go for 2x 15-18 + 1x 20-27 led by a Transmorg/Change Locus Tzherald, (who is really 'meh' himself), you're stuck with simply using 10 strong units as essentially 130pts chaff drops because you've run out of spell support!

Likewise the LoC is great, but not for what you'd expect him to be great for... He's actually very average at best as a wizard - a slap in the face for the avatar of the God of freaking Magic! On the other hand, slap the Eternal Beatstick in his hands and he's only a shade behind a Bloodthirster in terms of his fighting ability! (don't try to understand this, I know it's really stupid!)
Leave him Lv2 and just give him Searing Doom + 1 other Metal spell and let him go wreck units.

Burny Chariots are workable, but very flimsy and prone to exploding themselves if you ever misfire. However you really need to use 2 of them because of Warpflame and due to their fragility.

Screamers are simply 'meh'. Their base size means you can't build big units to take advantage of their fly-by hits since you won't be able to land your unit. Yet despite the suggestion of their larger base size, they're only still 'War Beast' type units and thus can be stomped into oblivion. (in an edition that heavily leans towards monstrous units & monsters in general!)
And their fighting stats aren't exactly stellar either... Thus you've got a unit with a very limited scope of what it can reliably achieve, namely some harassment and the odd flank charge against S3/4 units.

Flamers are simply useless due to being over costed & nerfed into the ground.

Overall Tzeentch is shoehorned into an MSU style of play and comes across as being 'Daemonic Wood Elves' instead of being the army that rules the Magic phase like you'd honestly expect them to.

Wow, that answered my question - thank you =D It is a pity though, I mean the Lord of Change not being really, really adept at magic is just plain annoying/crazy. Same with what you've described about the horrors, it does seem unnecessarily, mm, annoying.

anyhow that is lots of good information, really useful if you're thinking about Tzeentch.

Is there any reason for mono-God chaos lists in Fantasy?

In 40k, there is no incentive at all. There is no in game animosity what so ever, and no unit rules out a different one.

There are only really two reasons to go mono-God in 40k.
1) Aesthetics
2) The mark of Nurgle is so flaming good, you might as well make your army Nurgle.

(that is, for Chaos Space Marines.)

You get the benefit of IP and BSB. Which does help but it's not as crucial. Nearly every other army in the game will self-destruct without them.

I personally think having one or the other on a particular unit is good.

 DukeRustfield wrote:
You get the benefit of IP and BSB. Which does help but it's not as crucial. Nearly every other army in the game will self-destruct without them.

I personally think having one or the other on a particular unit is good.

IP?

Inspiring Presence = General

 DukeRustfield wrote:
You get the benefit of IP and BSB. Which does help but it's not as crucial. Nearly every other army in the game will self-destruct without them.

I personally think having one or the other on a particular unit is good.

Even for Daemons a BSB is pretty critical for your anvil unit and support units like the Soul Grinder. (which can at least always be marked to match-up)
Nothing worse than losing a combat by 1 or 2 points and then boxcar'ing your entire unit off the table.

It can also be critical for stopping an early 2 or 3 result on the RoC from blowing up in your face.


Unfortunately, due to the overall fragility of the Heralds themselves, only the Nurgle one is really viable, hence why you see so many competitive armies especially running the Regen Plaguebearer brick.
T5/W3/5++ with added Regen is a solid hero. And thanks to being limited to only BSB magic banners, it's quite common to see the Fencer's Blades added into the package to make the most of the -1 to-hit in combat ability due to being a Daemon of Nurgle.

Tzeentch/Slaany/Khorne versions want to stay out of combat and keep that banner safe.

 DukeRustfield wrote:

Experiment 626 wrote:
And while the 'Dark Prince Thirsts' result does allow ward saves, due to the way the army's General/BSB rules work, it's almost always instant death to those Khannons as they're testing Ld7 on 3D6. (with no IP or BSB re-rolls)

As always, in cases of DoC, 626's words are basically worthless. Let's go over this.

-Chance of dark on RoC: 13.89%
-Chance of being forced to roll for each Kannon: 16.67%
-Chance of doing enough wounds - LD * Ward to instantly kill a 4 wound Kannon (no IP/BRB) = 25.93%

So the chance of starting at the RoC and killing a Kannon is 0.6%. I.e., 6/10ths of 1%.


Any of your other rolls in any normal combat round have vastly more impact than that.

I'm glad the odds are this way and I'm burning out my bad luck in practice games. I lost one two games in a row to this.