The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (Eldar Tactica p.318 & 319)

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**PrinceRaven**

I don't think my Flyrants have ever failed a single charge.

**Eldercaveman**

Has anyone done the maths between the two?

**PrinceRaven**

Between which two?

**Eldercaveman**

PrinceRaven wrote:
Between which two?

The Reaper and Bonesword tyrant.

**felixcat**

That and the fact that ther Reaper on a Trygon has fleet anyway.

**tag8833**

I ran 2 games yesterday.

One was an experimental 3 Mawloc list that I was trying against a pretty powerful tau list.

My list:

Spoiler:

My Opponent's List (Farsight)

Spoiler:

Big Guns - 5 Objectives - Dawn of War - He went 1st
It was a relatively close battle if the game ended on turn 5 I would have won. If the game ended on turn 6 I would have won. But by turn 7 he was able to win.
How the Game went:

Spoiler:

I got very lucky on his flamer squads. I tried to deny him the ability to deep strike next to my large Gaunt squads, and he was very aggressive trying to DS them. Both Mishapped and roll a 1 on the Misshap table.
Both Zoanthropes died turn 1. He took one out with 12 SMS shots. He wounded on 8. I rolled 6 for 8 saves. The other one was deployed a little too far in the open. When he moved, he was able to shoot 3 missle suites into it. On the first 3 saves, I failed 2 of 3.
He was benefitted by terrain. He was able to deploy all of his Broadsides on upper levels of ruins, and his plasma suits managed to stay on upper level of ruins once they arrived, as well. That denied my Mawlocs targets, and was challenging for assault.
On his turn 2, his plasmas arrived next to my flyrant who was hiding out of line of sight. He shot everything he could at that one, and did 1 wound, but failed to bring it down. Flyrant 2 on the other hand, was not as out of line of sight as I had hoped. He did 3 wounds with 1 broadside that could see it (Stupid Terrain). I failed 2 of 3 saves. I failed grounding, and took a wound. Then a riptide finished it with SmS. That denied me synapse for 1/2 of the board.
On turn 2 I arrived in a big way. 1 Mawloc scattered, and hit some drones. Another landed on his commander, and did some good damage, killing a suite and 2 drones, and putting 2 wounds on his commander. The 3rd misshaped, and he placed it in the middle of his Plasma suites. Both squads of Gaunts arrived and killed 1 1/2 suite (3 wounds) with all of their fire. I felt like this was very poor, but it was what it was. My Genesteelers made it into CC with a riptide, and put several wounds on it. My Warrior on top of the bastion was taking out a couple of drones every turn.
On his turn 3 he charged one of his commander plus 4 marker drones into my squad of 30 gaunts. I put 2 wounds on his commander in overwatch. This combat lasted several turns. I was out of synapse, so I had to win or tie combat which I did both turns despite his drones making 9 of 12 4 + saves. In turn 5 he did win combat, and swept the remaining 22 gaunts with his remaining Commander + 1 drone. Argh! He also shot at my other squat of gaunts, but didn't do much damage. He did kill the mawloc he had placed, and maneuver so that I couldn't really charge anything.
On my turn 3, my remaining mawlocs burrowed. I moved my flyrant into range of his commander not in CC, and fired devourers. I managed to kill one squad of broadsided with my large gaunt squad (shooting + assault), I had been planning to assault the Flyrant into them, but it was unneeded). I also finished off his riptide with my genesteelers.
On his turn 4, every bullet he had went into my Flyrant, and killed it, except for the riptide who messed up my genesteelers (only 2 left). Thank goodness for Leadership 10 on genesteelers.
On my turn 4, My 2 Mawlocs returned. One landed on one of his backfield objectives, the other Took some wounds off his riptide, and then misshaped. It rolled a 1. I managed to pass all but 1 of my leadership tests, so my HGaunts (killed 4 of their 7, but) held one objective. My Genesteelers (2 remaining) held a 2nd. My Mawloc held a 3rd (easily contested), and my Warriors held a 4th. His 2 remaining broadsides had the 5th.
On his turn 5, he shoot his riptide at my warriors, and killed 2. Everything else shot at my Mawloc and took off some wounds.
My turn 5, I passed all of my leadership. I moved the Mawloc closer to the objective, I move my gaunts, and were going to assault the riptide, but managed to kill it in shooting. So he had 1st blood and Warlord, I had 4 of 5 objectives. We both had linebreaker Game did not end.
His turn 6, he kill my last warrior, He took some wounds off the Mawloc (down to 1).
My turn 6, My TGaunts were the only ones to fail synapse. So they couldn't shoot at his Warlord. But I still held 3 objectives to his 1, and he lost linebreaker trying to kill my mawloc. So I would have won if the game ended. But it didn't.
His turn 7, he killed my last mawloc, and shot up some of my TGaunts. I conceded.

My lessons from the game.

Spoiler:

My IG game was far less interesting. I ran a similar list -Genesteelers -2 Mawlocs + 2 Biovores + 2 Dakkafexes. I made many mistakes. Still I could have gotten a Draw on turn 5. Came down to a Heavy weapon team assaulting and killing 2 HGaunts. I feel like this list ha real problems with Mech. I think I'm giving up on Devil Gaunt outflanking lists. It forces me to be too aggressive with my Flyrants. Instead, I'm going to focus on adding more Fexes or Gargoyles.

Next week I plan to proxy my Tervigon as an exocrine, and try to give that a test. Biovores + Fexes + Exocrine for HV support.

One rules question: If I give Adrenals to Fexes, they get S10 HOW right? I swear I read that somewhere, but in the rulebook seems to say the opposite.

**rigeld2**

No, HoW is always at the base, unmodified STR.

**NewTruthNeomaxim**

Its my understanding that HOW attacks always go from the models base stat-line, period... regardless of wargear, etc...

**herpguy**

NewTruthNeomaxim wrote:
Its my understanding that HOW attacks always go from the models base stat-line, period... regardless of wargear, etc...

Or unless you're GW poster-boys and you get +1 S on it.

**tetrisphreak**

herpguy wrote:
NewTruthNeomaxim wrote:
Its my understanding that HOW attacks always go from the models base stat-line, period... regardless of wargear, etc...

Or unless you're GW poster-boys and you get +1 S on it.

White scars. Boo.

**SBG**

I see a ton of lists using single Zoeys for synapse, and often giving up kill points or (more often) First Blood. I've always been of the opinion that a lone Zoey is not durable enough, and the batreps seem to bear this out.

Two or three zoeys would use the same slot but cost slightly more, while an additional squad of warriors would not cost all that much more while providing more wounds but losing that handy lance. I just hate to see first blood given up by zoeys so often.

**jifel**

SBG wrote:
I see a ton of lists using single Zoeys for synapse, and often giving up kill points or (more often) First Blood. I've always been of the opinion that a lone Zoey is not durable enough, and the batreps seem to bear this out.

Two or three zoeys would use the same slot but cost slightly more, while an additional squad of warriors would not cost all that much more while providing more wounds but losing that handy lance. I just hate to see first blood given up by zoeys so often.

A lone zoey by itself isn't a great buy I think, but if you have a Bastion I think it's a great deal.

**Xyptc**

Depends how you are using a lone Zoanthrope I suppose. Against Tau (or Taudar, or anything with Tau in it really) with all their ignore LoS "fun" a lone unit of any sort of going to be easy First Blood.

Against other, more balanced, forces it is quite posisble to play a lone Zoanthrope intelligently and keep it alive the whole game with LoS and target priority.

**SBG**

jifel wrote:
SBG wrote:
I see a ton of lists using single Zoeys for synapse, and often giving up kill points or (more often) First Blood. I've always been of the opinion that a lone Zoey is not durable enough, and the batreps seem to bear this out.

Two or three zoeys would use the same slot but cost slightly more, while an additional squad of warriors would not cost all that much more while providing more wounds but losing that handy lance. I just hate to see first blood given up by zoeys so often.

A lone zoey by itself isn't a great buy I think, but if you have a Bastion I think it's a great deal.

I agree, though most don't seem to utilize a bastion...

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Xyptc wrote:
Depends how you are using a lone Zoanthrope I suppose. Against Tau (or Taudar, or anything with Tau in it really) with all their ignore LoS "fun" a lone unit of any sort of going to be easy First Blood.

Against other, more balanced, forces it is quite possible to play a lone Zoanthrope intelligently and keep it alive the whole game with LoS and target priority.

I'm not so sure. Intelligent opponents should have the tools to defeat 2 t4 wounds at range quite readily, even on the first turn. And most opponents will recognize the value of the 'free' point that it will get them... whether deep striking, barrage, sniper squads, long range anti-tank, and so on.

I don't trust a 2 point swing to be safe on such a vulnerable platform.

**NewTruthNeomaxim**

Bastion + Zoey, or Bastion + Venom have been one of the most widely regarded options of our new Codex.

I fully expect as the meta shifts and as 'Nid players learn what works that the 75pts or so of a Bastion will become virtually auto-include.

**Dozer Blades**

I'd never run a solo Zoie... There are lots of armies beside Tau that easily nuke them.

**Zach**

Just had a large 2500 pt game yesterday.

It helped solidify some things about the codex for me, particularly that small gibblies arent where its at for troops and Tervigon as a troop is just too expensive in lower point games.

It also showed that the codex is a lot of fun to play and is actually flexible, I switched from full on assault to strat defense halfway. I made some mistakes but a lot of my 'theories' worked out. I loved the Reaper/Lashwhip Tyrants and my fliers. I cant wait to run my list with the Harpy added as well.

**Xyptc**

Wow lechine, that was a string of unlucky events on your side there.

When you say that you're not so keen on "smaller bugs" for troops, are you now considering moving towards Tyranid Warriors as scoring units?

Strikes me that had the Prime and his Termagaunts arrived on the correct flank, then things could have gone very differently over there (you could even have fed Termagants to Lysander all game).

Have you considered a second similar unit to outflank, hedging your bets on coming in where you need to?

**Zach**

Well I used the Gants purely because it was 2500pts and could afford the Tervigon. I do agree that they could have done a lot more, Id like to have trapped Lysander and detached Prime, or at least get some of the firing off of my heavy hitters. But without that Prime attached,
that unit could have easily come in wrong and then run off the field after failing synapse checks. Gants have a synapse tax, and that tax is expensive.

My 2000pt list just uses Warriors, a large group outflanking and another 100pt group for field synapse. Once I get them painted up I'll face them off against the wife's Eldau list. It's her birthday week so there will be a new Wraithknight or two to face, should be an interesting BatRep itself.

**SBG**

Can't wait to see it!

**felixcat**

My first lists used Flyrant s with HC, deep strikers, infiltrators. I've been slowly moving away from those builds under 2000. I have a few lists I play and I'm tweaking my no flyer list after every game I play. Those that have seen it ... i can say that it has already changed. One unit though that has performed extremely well for me is the CarniStar - a deathspitter Prime (130 pts) and three TL dev Carnis (450 pts). No doubt this is an expensive unit and I will be playing two of these now. The other unit I like is the afroementioned Zoan in a bastion with quad autocannons. Again, this not a cheap unit coming in at 175 pts. This does not leave all that much for other slots at 1750. What can I say. Its funny - in 5th edition and early 6ed I used the CarniStar a lot and then shelved it for awhile using Dual flyrant/Zoans in pods/Tervigons and spamming telepathy and biomancy. This is not feasible with the new codex so Nid players have to adjust their thinking yet again.

Now Jy2 tried the nine Carni list and got run over. I think his list was actually not too bad. He did run into bad luck with the die and he used two Flyrants ( which are not in my list ). He aslo skimmped a bit on troops as again - when you invest so much in Carnis and HQs what is left over? I think with a bit more balance the Carni lists could be among the better Nid lists but I need to test a lot more before deciding what constitutes 'balance' in today's meta. I want a solid list to counter to more than the WS/DA lists that Jy2 faced.

I keep seeing Tervigons knocked - and I agree they are not what they used to be. But adding a single Terv with regen and maybe a thorax upgrade is still viable I believe. I just think you need enough threatening MCs in your list to pull it off as MTO is necessary and cover ( hiding behind a Carni wall) will really help. These are just my impressions after a handful games, mind you. I have yet to play enough games to cement my first impressions of the new codex. I have used three entirely different lists so I will have to sit down and do a real analysis one of these days. I do feel however, that the Nid codex is not all doom and gloom. There is a lot of potential there.

With all that said - my biggest problem is still range. I want to use a foot list. It has all the models Iike. But I move 6" with a gun that has a 18" range. Catching any mech list is tough. Cutting off their transports is tough. DE and Eldar are real problems with a foot list. I have yet to find a sloid answer
(please do not say fragile Crones and Flyrants). I know Ravs, Gargs, infiltaring Stealers all help but they also offer easy first blood and soft targets. I can tailor a bit for these lists for sure but then against other lists I will suffer. Outflank is simply unreliable, Mawlocs are erratic at best. So I can go with solid and true units and they are slow. I am going to see what lists did well at LVO and then re-assess.

**NewTruthNeomaxim**

For what it is worth, I've committed to all my games this week using the Minimum Genestealer Troops theory seen a few pages back. I have to say, i'm deeply interested in the idea of them being non-synapse needing back-field campers, with the option of being used more aggressively as the game demands/table is set up, etc...

I don't know, I just have this feeling there is something to the idea. Plus, pulling out the Tervigon, the Term-tax (and the devourers I liked to have on some of them), etc... means I can put in 4 min broods of stealers, and still have enough points that I can now sneak in another FMC, etc...

**Mozzamanx**

Yes! You can be my test monkey to get some real testing with the list. As I said it was purely theory from an outward observer, but if there are some results to go with it...

We can split the fame 50/50 when you sweep your first tournament.

**barnowl**

SBG wrote:
jifel wrote:
SBG wrote:
I see a ton of lists using single Zoeys for synapse, and often giving up kill points or (more often) First Blood. I've always been of the opinion that a lone Zoey is not durable enough, and the batreps seem to bear this out.

Two or three zoeys would use the same slot but cost slightly more, while an additional squad of warriors would not cost all that much more while providing more wounds but losing that handy lance. I just hate to see first blood given up by zoeys so often.

A lone zoey by itself isn't a great buy I think, but if you have a Bastion I think it's a great deal.

I agree, though most don't seem to utilize a bastion...

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Xyptc wrote:
Depends how you are using a lone Zoanthrope I suppose. Against Tau (or Taudar, or anything with Tau in it really) with all their ignore LoS "fun" a lone unit of any sort of going to be easy First Blood.

Against other, more balanced, forces it is quite possible to play a lone Zoanthrope intelligently and keep it alive the whole game with LoS and target priority.

I'm not so sure. Intelligent opponents should have the tools to defeat 2 t4 wounds at range quite readily, even on the first turn. And most opponents will recognize the value of the 'free' point that it will get them... whether deep striking, barrage, sniper squads, long range anti-tank, and so on.

I don't trust a 2 point swing to be safe on such a vulnerable platform.

Zoes have the really about the best save in the codex with a 3++. Run as solo's with enough other more pressing board threats works pretty well. And lets face it nid's are almost always giving up first blood anyway. As an army we are just squishy.

**HandsNFeetFace**

Here is my 1500pt Nid list that has managed to win on the two games I've played with it (Necrons and Wolves)

Flyrant - stranglethorn, TWDev

Zthrope

Zthrope

20 Gants - 5 dev

20 gants - 5 dev

4 warriors - rend claws, dspitters

5 Raveners - rend claws

Exocrine

TFex - rupture, regen

2 Cfex - 2 scyth talons

I would love to here what you guys think about it so far, what you would change, and what I should add to bring it to 2000pt. I've got my taxes back and this is going to be the one time that I would actually have the funds to apply what you think the changes should be.

p.s. I'd like to add that I'm really liking how the warriors are working in my local meta and was really considering the 9 strong outflanking brood. Have enough people tested it out to be viable?

**DarkStarSabre**

Just an image and video drop from the Apocalypse game a few weeks back. Will post more about it likely tomorrow.

For the record mine were the bone skin, dark blue carapace nids.

**herpguy**

From a non-Tyranid player who has enjoyably been following this whole thread, here are my thoughts:

Flyrants were awesome before, now they're strictly better. The only problem now is that synapse is even more important than ever, so flying your synapse up can really hurt you.

I think Tervigons seem as essential as they were last edition, but I don't see why you would ever need more than one.

It's unfortunate that a bastion seems necessary but if you want to go the venom + zoan route it is 100% required since a 2W T4 model is mincemeat against almost any army. Too bad they weren't made ICs...

I find it really unfortunate that they price gouged Primes since they seem like they fill a much more essential role than last edition. I think they're really good but the increase hurts. Still a deathspitter prime is a whole 100 pts cheaper than a flyrant. Too bad the HQ slot is so crowded...

Mawlocs are crap. I have not seen one perform stellar in all the batreps I've seen. They are just way too unreliable, those points could be spent much better elsewhere.

Tyrannofex's are awesome. Dropping anything by 75 points was very generous. I would take 2 with the torrent weapon charging up the field to put severe pressure on any army. They are also tough as nails to take down and anything not AP2 is a waste of shots.

TL Dev carnifexes are awesome as well. I would think that at least 1 full brood does a lot to buff any army. It's something you can't ignore.

Deathleaper is really cool, but alas, he is also in the HQ slot and there is no room in the inn...

Hormagaunts seem very scary to me. They are essentially baby daemonettes. I think more people need to try them out instead of clinging to their beloved Termagants.

I honestly can't even give an opinion on warriors. It just seems like they're way too determined by the matchup.

All in all, I would not be opposed to giving a tyranid player an extra HQ slot. If space puppies get extra ones why can't tyranid players? Oh wait, they're space marines...

Anyways, I figured I would give you guys my thoughts.

I'm primarily a CSM player so I know the feels and hope you guys can figure the codex out.

**DarkStarSabre**

herpguy wrote:

Deathleaper is really cool, but alas, he is also in the HQ slot and there is no room in the inn...

We have a formation for that. What makes it better is that the Tyranid Formations give us the things we want (Deathleaper, Lictors, Genestealers) and do not eat up their heavily contested force org slots to do so.

**Arbiter_Shade**

herpguy wrote:

Hormagaunts seem very scary to me. They are essentially baby daemonettes. I think more people need to try them out instead of clinging to their beloved Termagants.

Sorry but Daemonettes are strictly better in every way. They move just as fast, the have rending, they have a 5+ invul save, and a lower WS. They are a bit move expensive but...man do you get a lot more bang for your buck, plus you can attach a Herald and make them even better.

Hormagaunts were better in 5th when they got reroll 1's to hit and people didn't use them back then. Termagants lose one attack and one initiative but gain a gun and in 6th edition a gun is worth more than an extra attack in CC. Also consider that termagants get counter attack if they are in range of a Tervigon.

**ductvader**

Arbiter_Shade wrote:
herpguy wrote:

Hormagaunts seem very scary to me. They are essentially baby daemonettes. I think more people need to try them out instead of clinging to their beloved Termagants.

Sorry but Daemonettes are strictly better in every way. They move just as fast, the have rending, they have a 5+ invul save, and a lower WS. They are a bit move expensive but...man do you get a lot more bang for your buck, plus you can attach a Herald and make them even better.

Hormagaunts were better in 5th when they got reroll 1's to hit and people didn't use them back then. Termagants lose one attack and one initiative but gain a gun and in 6th edition a gun is worth more than an extra attack in CC. Also consider that termagants get counter attack if they are in range of a Tervigon.

Hormagaunts are still great and very comparable to daemonettes...they fail to be equivalent in the necessity for synapse...they need shrikes or a trygon prime.