Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 PrinceRaven wrote:
Well, it's "swooping" isn't it? So it swooped down low to take advantage of the cover.

That's exactly how I put it to my friend, how they 'Swoop' behind that piece of terrain when being shot it. He always hates the explanation. I always find it hilarious.

Soo.. any news on the newest & last Formation? Any hints, leaked tid-bits??

The "living tide" formation appears to be a formation of formations. That one intrigues me.

It truly makes me happy to know that Tyranids still can be extremely fluffy and be competitive. That being said, I am giving it about 3 months at the latest before they release all the Tyranid dataslates in hardback, combined or separately. All that being said, how does everyone feel about the Harridan in escalation now? Just got one in a trade, and I am looking to field it as soon as possible.

Harridans are by far the best of the Nid Apoc units. S10 vector strikes followed up by lots of S10 firepower can wreck virtually anything, and many D-weapons will be unable to snapshot at it until it's grounded.

The Harridan's main vulnerability is that they can still be grounded by lasguns, but that's more of a BRB issue than the unit itself.

So I'm thinking about buying a Heirophant, but I'm unsure on the rules. Would my wife's insta-killing on 6's Wraith units instakill it, or does it just lose a lot of wounds?

How big in inches is the Harridan?

ID attacks inflict D3 wounds on Gargantuan Creatures.

The Hierophant also has 2+ armour, so unless those Wraiths are AP2 they probably won't have much luck. They will also need to survive the Hierophant's attacks too, it gets a lot of them at WS6 S10 I6 with AP2...

Its only real weakness is D-weapons.

Any of the distort weapons are AP1/2. They typically have a short range though.

edit: Distort weapons are almost as bad as D weapons against a GC - because Eldar can spam the everliving crap out of them and each 6 is d3 wounds.

Yea Wraithguard/Knights are S10 AP2 ID on 6.

It seems like it would be fun in home games, and its such a ridiculously cool model.

I wonder what we are going to see in the next update of IA 4.

The return of Mass Points as a protection from D weapons would be great, or a way to give Nids D weapons.

Skyblight Test Results


But first off, I just wanted to show you my massive Tyranid Apoc collection (actually, my friend and I....but most of the big guys are mine):







BTW, I've been playtesting extensively with the Skyblight formation, running 2500 Double-FOC Ard Boyz-style games.



Sky Fleet Blightdora (Splinter Fleet off of Hive Fleet Pandora)

5x Dakka Flyrants

Venom

3x10 Gants
3x Tyranid Warriors - Barbed Strangler

2x Harpies - HVC's
3x Hive Crones
2x15 Gargoyles
14x Gargoyles

Bastion

Tyranid Psychic Powers: (for all the games) 3x Catalyst, 2x Paroxysm, 2x Onslaught, 2x Psychic Shriek, Warp Blast

I just generated the powers once and used them for all games.




Game #1 vs Draigowing+Necrons

2x Necron Overlord w/2+, MSS + Warscythes
Draigo

2x5 Immortals in Night Scythes
5x Warriors - Night Scythe
5x Warriors
10x Paladins - 4x Psycannons, FNP, BroBanner, S5-stormbolters, everything
1x Soladin

6x Annihilation Barges


Mission: Relic + Big Guns, Hammer & Anvil, NecroKnights go 1st


Summary: Despite the 1st turn alpha-strike, NecroKnights didn't even manage to kill a flyrant due to 2+ cover and the bugs deploying in snapfire-range of the AB's on Turn 1 (i.e. over 30") away. Harpies and hive crones deploy completely out of range of the AB's. Tyranid retalitorial fire killed a couple of paladins and took down 1 AB for First Blood.

On T2, 2 night scythes come in. However, due to FNP on all flyrants from Catalyst and good saves (bad shooting), I believe bugs lose only 1 flyrant. Paladinstar then go to grab the Relic.

Tyranids then have a devastating beta-strike. Flyrants snipe out the Apothecary (the FNP guy) and kill some more paladins. They also take out 2 of the 3 flyers as well as a couple of AB's with shooting and I believe 1 assault.

T3 is more of the same fail from the NecroKnights. The last flyer comes in. Shooting (now only from the paladinstar, 1 flyer and 3 AB's) can't do enough damage, killing maybe 1 or 2 FMC's. Tyranids then finish off the last night scythe with shooting and all the AB's with mainly assault. Flyrant shooting and finally assault by 2 units of gargoyles kill off the paladinstar to only Draigo remaining.

With all the barges dead, necron flyers dead and paladins gone, NecroKnights concede on Turn 3.




Game #2 vs Seer Council Deldar

Jetseer
Shardseer
Baron

9 Warlocks on Jetbikes

4x5 Dire Avengers in Wave Serpents
2x3 Jetbikes
5x Warriors - Venom w/Grisly Trophies

3x Wraithknights


Mission: Crusade + Emperor's Will, Dawn of War, Night-fight, Eldar go 1st

A sign of the game to come. Eldar didn't get Fortune until the very last roll for psychic powers. That means 5 attempts on the Eldar psychic table, meaning 2 Guides and a bunch of junk powers. It also meant no Prescience or other Divination powers. BTW, I played the LVO rules, where re-rollabe 2+'s become 2+/4+.

On the bright side, Eldar gets a scoring Warlord. That means the whole seer council will be scoring as long as the Shardseer (w/Fortune) is with them! Just perfect.


Summary: Eldar T1 - One of the warlocks dies to Perils while casting Protect. Thanks to 2+ cover from ruins+bastion+venom+shroud, Tyranids survive the Eldar alpha-strike.

T1 - A devastating turn for Eldar. Tyranids go crazy this turn. 2 of the flyrants cast Psychic Scream and actually kill a WK (rolled 11 (+2) on the LD test twice), thus getting First Blood! The rest of the flyrants focus on the seer council, maneuvering to where the Baron was. About 48 TL S6 shots later (with a bunch of Precision shots), the Baron is killed as he fails his Look-Out-Sirs as well as 3 warlocks!!! Tyranids also take out the DE venom.

Eldar 2 - They only manage only to shoot down 1 flyrant. No grounding. Seer council can only charge 1 unit of gargoyles but fail to wipe them out due to no Prescience and being strung out.

T2 - Tyranids continue to stay hot. They take out 3 wave serpents via shooting and assault and stun the 4th. They also kill 1 unit of dire avengers. WK gets charged and takes 2W from gargoyles.

Eldar 3 - Things are going south in a hurry. The seer council fails almost all of their powers due to Shadows, including Fortune. They don't do anything of consequence.

T3 - Without Fortune, Tyranids wipe out the Seer Council and both farseers. Both WK's are locked in combat with gargoyles and the jetbikes can't hide, not with all those FMC's around.

Eldar concedes.




Game #3 vs Wraithwing Necrons

3x Destroyer Lords - 2+, MSS, ResOrb

2x5 Gauss Immortals in Night Scythes
3x5 Warriors in Night Scythes

3x5 Wraiths

6x Annihilation Barges



Coming out later today.

Tease.
(when I post this he hasn't finished posting Game 2)

 jy2 wrote:
Skyblight Test Results


But first off, I just wanted to show you my massive Tyranid Apoc collection (actually, my friend and I....but most of the big guys are mine):

They sell blue peppers in California?

 jy2 wrote:
Skyblight Test Results


But first off, I just wanted to show you my massive Tyranid Apoc collection (actually, my friend and I....but most of the big guys are mine):

Ho-ly crap!

That orange bio Titan is the one I painted and sold on eBay back in 2011! I'm glad to see it being used in the hands of a skilled player, also I'm glad to see its legs are still intact after all this time. (The scenic tree glued in its chest plate offers really good support).

 tetrisphreak wrote:

Ho-ly crap!

That orange bio Titan is the one I painted and sold on eBay back in 2011! I'm glad to see it being used in the hands of a skilled player, also I'm glad to see its legs are still intact after all this time. (The scenic tree glued in its chest plate offers really good support).

Lol. It's a small world after all, isn't it?

You know, 3 months and 74 pages of this thread after the release of the codex I can say that we were a bunch of headless chickens for being so negative.
Not only the dataslates greatly helped us. But the codex isn't as bad as we though (it is still bad, specially in the fluff part, 90% is a copy paste of the previous codex). It is better than the previous one even with the lack of biomancy, I just stomped a Daemon player without the need of a dataslate.

Not sure which thread you've been reading - many of us haven't been down on the new codex from the start.
I mean - I pointed out the obvious flaws (Pyrovores still suck, Tervigons got expectedly nerfed, Swarmlord got unexpectedly nerfed, loss of Pods) but overall I've been happy.

I mean, Carnifexes got much cheaper - how could I be mad?

How the codex competes is very far down on my list of complaints.

Not on this thread (in fact this thread was a haven for me personally) but on the many others the "competitive" view of the Codex was that it was bottom three. And that is no exaggeration, in fact saying "bottom three" is giving those views grace.

I understand there were negative views towards other aspects of the codex but the majority were around how it will compete.

See, that is the problem with the internet. One person will say something, and then the little people will take it and run with it, spewing it forth brainlessly as holy verse for the masses. Most often, the internet becomes a chaotic place, with 95% of the space taken up by the brainless spewings of those people, and the yet more little people taking their message, making it worse, and then spewing it forth as yet more holy verse that people need to hear. Then you have places like this, where most of the more intelligent people retreat to so that we don't have to listen to the other 95%.

Truth is, the meta of this game is always changing and varies from place to place. There is no right or wrong, or good or bad. It simply is. At first, I was mildly upset at the loss of spore pods, but now I really couldn't care less. I was distraught at the loss of the Parasite of Mortrex, but now, that little bird is a fast fading memory. Compared to the last codex, GW has spoiled Tyranid players like little children with the new shiny toy that we justly deserve.

To sum all this up,

Yada yada, the easily confused idiot thinks he knows something and is spouting random potentially philosophical messages again, call the white coats.

And by the way...still working on a way to use Pyrovores effectively. I just need to go pick up some more.

That's usually what happens in the natural "evolution" of a new codex. When it first comes out, the critics (which include especially may of the veteran Tyranid players) proclaim that the sky is falling and that the world of 40K as they know it has come to and end. Then later as people get more and more used to/experience with the new codex, they find that it isn't really all that bad. As a matter of fact, a few gems start to come out.

But the true Tyranid players are all connected by the Hive Mind. They know that their new army can compete. And finally, 3 months down the line, it is their turn to say, "see, I told you so."


-----------------------------------------------------------------------


BTW, Game #2 vs Seer Council Deldar is up (on p. 74 or click on the link).

Umm the Nids codex is still bad....Its lazy and uninspired.

Yes sure we can win plenty games (i've won far more then i've lost) but that doesn't change the fact that the codex was a hash job. (The DLC's did help but really....endless swarm should of been a purchasable codex upgrade for any gaunt squads...)


All I really need to say to make my point is what they did to Scy talons...Replacing re-rolls with AP6 sure is awesome /sarcasm

vortexdr wrote:
Umm the Nids codex is still bad....Its lazy and uninspired.

Yes sure we can win plenty games (i've won far more then i've lost) but that doesn't change the fact that the codex was a hash job. (The DLC's did help but really....endless swarm should of been a purchasable codex upgrade for any gaunt squads...)


All I really need to say to make my point is what they did to Scy talons...Replacing re-rolls with AP6 sure is awesome /sarcasm

Now AP5 would have been something...come on...even Kroot CC attacks are AP5!

...stupid bird people.

vortexdr wrote:
Umm the Nids codex is still bad....Its lazy and uninspired.

Yes sure we can win plenty games (i've won far more then i've lost) but that doesn't change the fact that the codex was a hash job. (The DLC's did help but really....endless swarm should of been a purchasable codex upgrade for any gaunt squads...)


All I really need to say to make my point is what they did to Scy talons...Replacing re-rolls with AP6 sure is awesome /sarcasm

Not to disparage on you on anything, but that's the problem with people (in general) nowadays. They expect everything in the new codex to be improved, and when it isn't, they denouce the codex as bad or a regression.

When a new generation 'dex comes out, there will be changes. Some for the better, others for the worse. It is unrealistic to expect everything to be better. Rather, you need to shift your expectations from what used to be good to what is good currently. Every single codex change has had this shift.


Necrons - they lost the indestructible monoliths. Reanimation protocols now on a 5+ instead of the 4+. They used to be able to ignore all saves, including Invuln's.

Eldar - they lost auto-Fortune. Bye bye, broken piece of crap Runes of Warding. Harlistar used to be awesomesauce.

Tau - S10 railguns nerfed. Fireknives-spam was all the rage and very powerful indeed.

Daemons - Fate-weaver lost his 6" re-rollable bubble. Bloodcrushers were awesomesauce with T5 and 3+ (and much cheaper also!), especially around Fatey. Screamers and Flamers of Tzeentch were killing it.


So where are they now? Who cares. All of these 4 armies are kicking it at the top tables in tournament play. Now I am not saying Tyranids belong up there with that group (yet), but Tyranids have evolved. If you want to play them, you (the people) need to evolve as well, especially with your expectations. Do not judge today's army with yesterday's expectations. Instead, man up and figure out how to make the new army work for you. Or don't and go play something else.

 jy2 wrote:

vortexdr wrote:
Umm the Nids codex is still bad....Its lazy and uninspired.

Yes sure we can win plenty games (i've won far more then i've lost) but that doesn't change the fact that the codex was a hash job. (The DLC's did help but really....endless swarm should of been a purchasable codex upgrade for any gaunt squads...)


All I really need to say to make my point is what they did to Scy talons...Replacing re-rolls with AP6 sure is awesome /sarcasm

Not to disparage on you on anything, but that's the problem with people (in general) nowadays. They expect everything in the new codex to be improved, and when it isn't, they denouce the codex as bad or a regression.

When a new generation 'dex comes out, there will be changes. Some for the better, others for the worse. It is unrealistic to expect everything to be better. Rather, you need to shift your expectations from what used to be good to what is good currently. Every single codex change has had this shift.


Necrons - they lost the indestructible monoliths. Reanimation protocols now on a 5+ instead of the 4+. They used to be able to ignore all saves, including Invuln's.

Eldar - they lost auto-Fortune. Bye bye, broken piece of crap Runes of Warding. Harlistar used to be awesomesauce.

Tau - S10 railguns nerfed. Fireknives-spam was all the rage and very powerful indeed.

Daemons - Fate-weaver lost his 6" re-rollable bubble. Bloodcrushers were awesomesauce with T5 and 3+ (and much cheaper also!), especially around Fatey. Screamers and Flamers of Tzeentch were killing it.


So where are they now? Who cares. All of these 4 armies are kicking it at the top tables in tournament play. Now I am not saying Tyranids belong up there with that group (yet), but Tyranids have evolved. If you want to play them, you (the people) need to evolve as well, especially with your expectations. Do not judge today's army with yesterday's expectations. Instead, man up and figure out how to make the new army work for you. Or don't and go play something else.

Clearly the format of the codex release is terrible. The dataslates should have been part of the original codex. The original codex was incomplete and deserves the ridicule piled on it. It is an unseemly money-grab that will do long term harm to GW's PR. The strategy of creating monetary barriers to entry to access the rules is a clear misstep, and by itself is enough to judge the codex a PR failure.

Then you have the punishing effect of synapse which essentially precludes viable tyranid hoard armies. Non hoard tyranid builds are still viable, but that doesn't change the fact that the rules in the codex are at war with the fluff. That dissonance is going to lead to players attracted to the tyranid fluff to find the viable builds unsatisfying.

Further, it is important to note the Rock-Paper-Scissors effect going on in the current meta. Tyranids can beat Eldar. Eldar can beat Tau. Tau can beat Tyranids. That isn't a good thing. The Tyranid codex didn't create this problem, but it certainly didn't make any moves to solve it, and instead made it worse by strictly limiting the viable builds to lists build around the new kits. The lack of diversity is going to create a feel bad for most Tyranid players.

You argument for the codex not sucking is based on ignoring these factors, and focusing on there being a build that can beat certain armies that are powerful in the current meta. On that point I don't disagree with you. But that is not sufficient to judge the codex a success or even not a failure.

Miniwargaming is running a narrative campaign between Tyranids and Necrons. They want a diversity of games featuring a diversity of units. The degree to which they have to manipulate the rules and points to accomplish this highlights the ways in which the Tyranid Codex is a failure.

I personally believe that Leviathan II and III were mostly developed following the release of the codex in an attempt to balance out determined weak units.

Which is not a bad idea...especially from a sales perspective.

 jy2 wrote:

vortexdr wrote:
Umm the Nids codex is still bad....Its lazy and uninspired.

Yes sure we can win plenty games (i've won far more then i've lost) but that doesn't change the fact that the codex was a hash job. (The DLC's did help but really....endless swarm should of been a purchasable codex upgrade for any gaunt squads...)


All I really need to say to make my point is what they did to Scy talons...Replacing re-rolls with AP6 sure is awesome /sarcasm

Not to disparage on you on anything, but that's the problem with people (in general) nowadays. They expect everything in the new codex to be improved, and when it isn't, they denouce the codex as bad or a regression.

When a new generation 'dex comes out, there will be changes. Some for the better, others for the worse. It is unrealistic to expect everything to be better. Rather, you need to shift your expectations from what used to be good to what is good currently. Every single codex change has had this shift.

See here i'd have to disagree....That one change Scy tal's losing reroll has for all effective purposes severely nerfed our melee units to a point where they just aren't worth fielding, unless of course you want to gimp yourself on purpose.

I mean look what it has done to our MC's with the potential to have two sets of them...Fex's, Trygon, Mawloc etc etc..(they gained....well they gained I suppose AP6, whoopie!!!) You know what, if I had my old talon's i might actually considering running melee fex's....

The cash grab with the dataslates well it doesn't impact me, I'm just downloading/printing them just like I do with every single video game DLC..

Honestly... I've come to accept every single change in the new dex but this is the one I simply cannot comprehend.

There is no doubt that some people will always be upset with a new dex release while others will accept whatever they are given. Either does not mean therefore that every dex release is just as good as the next at the end of the day.

Outliers aside, I have to somewhat agree with tag8833. The dex is sloppy and bland, and a lot of the ideas in the dataslates could have been incorporated in the dex. Many of us acknowledge that strong builds can be made with nids and people will win games (and formations like the skyblight formation can make very strong nid builds). None of that changes the quality of the nid dex (or lack of quality).

I applaud those that are making the dex work for them and helping others to find ways to make nids enjoyable and competitive - again does not change the poor quality of the product.

I am certainly one of those miffed about the quality of the dex (I also have the SM dex and though it has problems it is a much better product with better internal/extranl balance and flavour). I am not happy that to get some of the rules/ideas that should have been in the dex I have to pay even more beyond the already overpriced dex to get them.

So yes, nid players that continue on will make the best (and I realize that some people like the dex) and forge onwards, winning games as well. Doesn't change the quality of an expensive product that could easily have been miles better with a little honest effort (or a lack of sales strategy to get nid players to pay more for rules by using dataslates - for those that hold to that theory).

When the dex came out the negative "narrative" was based around competitiveness, there were of course negatives towards the fluff and perceived lack of imagination but most of the comments were "Nids cant compete"

Now..

Instead of giving the dex is credit because we can now all see it can compete and that those criticisms were false the narrative instead of being positive changes to "No I didn't care about competing it was the fluff / lack of imagination I hated" *

You really just cant win when people grab hold of something.

* I will concede a minority of people will legitimately say they never once whined about the competitiveness and it was all about the other perceived problems.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ductvader wrote:
I personally believe that Leviathan II and III were mostly developed following the release of the codex in an attempt to balance out determined weak units.

Which is not a bad idea...especially from a sales perspective.

I agree.

No one will give GW props for actually responding to community concerns though.

To be honest, while not my major complaint, I did voice concerns over their ability to compete at first and I'm glad we've figured out how to make it work. I just wish it didn't feel like we were competitive in spite of the Codex and we had some better internal balance and versatility.