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 L0rdF1end wrote:

 jy2 wrote:
I'm just happy that, despite how "subpar" the community may think of Tyranids, people are not discouraged to take out their bugs to a major gaming event. That really is the main point of this thread - to let people know that Tyranids aren't as bad as most people think and to encourage people to give the bugs a chance in competitive play.

I consider the "success" of bugs at Adepticon not in how high they placed, but rather, by how many people were willing to run them at such a large tournament.

I'd consider it a success if you were doing well with the bugs Jy2 and actually took them to Adepticon.
No offence dude but the fact that you didn't take Nids says a lot.
I'm pretty sure if you wanted to take them you would of insured to have them ready for the event.

I didn't take them for a few reasons.

1. They weren't ready yet. They will be by the time the Golden Throne comes, which is when I am planning to take them out (or the Bay Area Open if it happens first).

2. I didn't want to check-in my army. Thus, for traveling, I prefer to take a smaller, more compact army. But for the local tournaments, Tyranids are going to have priority.

3. I wasn't satisfied with my necrons' performance at the LVO. This was their chance for redemption.

Bugs will have their moment to shine. Just because I didn't take them to Adepticon doesn't mean I don't have confidence with them.

 L0rdF1end wrote:
I'd consider it a success if you were doing well with the bugs Jy2 and actually took them to Adepticon.
No offence dude but the fact that you didn't take Nids says a lot.
I'm pretty sure if you wanted to take them you would of insured to have them ready for the event.

That's a tad harsh.

I didn't bring my Eldar or GKs to Adepticon...and definitely not because I think they're weak, they just weren't the playstyle I wanted to bring.

 ductvader wrote:

 L0rdF1end wrote:
I'd consider it a success if you were doing well with the bugs Jy2 and actually took them to Adepticon.
No offence dude but the fact that you didn't take Nids says a lot.
I'm pretty sure if you wanted to take them you would of insured to have them ready for the event.

That's a tad harsh.

I didn't bring my Eldar or GKs to Adepticon...and definitely not because I think they're weak, they just weren't the playstyle I wanted to bring.

Sorry, wasn't meant to come across as harsh, just an honest perception.
Jy2 rocks and I respect the time that he puts into the 40k community.

@L0rdF1end

No doubt!

I had a game yesterday. It brought about a few Tactical questions.

Item 1:
My opponent was a player I hadn't played before, who I had the impression was a pretty good player. Our game wasn't representative of his skill because he had never faced tyranids before, and he conceded on turn 3, which brings me up to 5-0 with my 1500 pts raveners list and 2-0 with an 1850 varient, and I'm starting to think it might be more legit than I first anticipated. I fear the day that I run into a monolith or Land Raider, or the IG tank with the S8 or 9 large blast (Executioner?). Anyways, the list has produced a consistency that I hadn't expected, and I wonder if anyone has comments on running a list this unbalanced. Also, any suggestions for updating the list to handle AV:14 without compromising what it does.


Item 2:
He had 2 land speeders (separate squads) that he moved up very aggressively. I was able to vector strike each with one flyrant on turn 1. I chose to vector strike because they had a 4+ Jink, and I thought it might be enough to kill them (one died). It essentially allowed me to shoot at 2 separate units. Which made it worth it, but I tried to run the math on Vector Strike vs 1 TL devourer on AV:10 vehicle with 4+ Jink, and it is about the same. Average vector Strike is 3 hits. Average TL Devourer is 5.33 hits, but I would lose 1/2 of them to the Jink. However, the greater number of hits from the devourer reduces the unlucky roll where I get a 1, 2, 2 to wound, but it adds a chance that he rolls really well on his saves. So, it seems a toss up to me, is there anyone who would make a case for one over the other being more reliable?

Item 3:
My opponent ran a giant squad of terminators with Lightening Claws. 10-12. At 1850 he adds a 2nd giant squad. We were both running "standard" lists, that we had prebuilt, and the only thing we knew about each others list, is that I warned him I was brining 2 FMC's. His list seems as unbalanced as mine, only I happen to have a very, very effective counter to his terminators in the form of my Raveners. Between 6 Raveners and 13 HGaunts, I killed 7 Terminators in the turn I charged. Imagine I was playing Dakkafexes + TFexes + Biovores + Flyrants with no Raveners, Mawlocs or Exocrines, would I want to do something like assault with Dakkafexes? Maybe Tarpit them with a TFex? Feed them Gaunts? Or, hold back plinking at them with Devourers?

Edit for clarity.

@tag

I know you showed interest when I posted it...but maybe my Tsunami list might inspire what you're looking for?

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/580517.page

In numbers, Raveners with 5 attacks each, Rending, really add up. I still give 'em respect, even if they are fragile.

I think I'm the only person even thinking about running Pyrovores, though. Not yet seen them in a single battle report.

*sniffle*

Poor lil' hot frogs, nobody gives you any love.

Wakshaani wrote:
In numbers, Raveners with 5 attacks each, Rending, really add up. I still give 'em respect, even if they are fragile.

I think I'm the only person even thinking about running Pyrovores, though. Not yet seen them in a single battle report.

*sniffle*

Poor lil' hot frogs, nobody gives you any love.

We give the model love...not the rules...they became near impossible to use with the removal of pods.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

tag8833 wrote:

He had 2 land speeders (separate squads) that he moved up very aggressively. I was able to vector strike each with one flyrant on turn 1. I chose to vector strike because they had a 4+ Jink, and I thought it might be enough to kill them (one died). It essentially allowed me to shoot at 2 separate units. Which made it worth it, but I tried to run the math on Vector Strike vs 1 TL devourer on AV:10 vehicle with 4+ Jink, and it is about the same. Average vector Strike is 3 hits. Average TL Devourer is 5.33 hits, but I would lose 1/2 of them to the Jink. However, the greater number of hits from the devourer reduces the unlucky roll where I get a 1, 2, 2 to wound, but it adds a chance that he rolls really well on his saves. So, it seems a toss up to me, is there anyone who would make a case for one over the other being more reliable?

I ran into the same problem...I chose to vector strike because I could then see if the Vector managed to kill the speeder and then choose to either shoot it if It didn't die...or shoot something else if it did die.

tag8833 wrote:
I had a game yesterday. It brought about a few Tactical questions.

Item 1:
My opponent was a player I hadn't played before, who I had the impression was a pretty good player. Our game wasn't representative of his skill because he had never faced tyranids before, and he conceded on turn 3, which brings me up to 5-0 with my 1500 pts raveners list and 2-0 with an 1850 varient, and I'm starting to think it might be more legit than I first anticipated. I fear the day that I run into a monolith or Land Raider, or the IG tank with the S8 or 9 large blast (Executioner?). Anyways, the list has produced a consistency that I hadn't expected, and I wonder if anyone has comments on running a list this unbalanced. Also, any suggestions for updating the list to handle AV:14 without compromising what it does.

Spoiler:

HQ:
Tyrant (Wings, 2 TL Devourers)
Tyrant (Wings, 2 TL Devourers)

Elite:
Venom
Zoey
Zoey

Troops:
13 HGaunts
13 HGaunts
13 HGaunts

Fast Attacks:
20 Gargoyles
9 Raveners (RCs)
6 Shrikes (2 BS+LW, 4 RCs, 6 ST, 6 Flesh Hooks)

Item 2:
He had 2 land speeders (separate squads) that he moved up very aggressively. I was able to vector strike each with one flyrant on turn 1. I chose to vector strike because they had a 4+ Jink, and I thought it might be enough to kill them (one died). It essentially allowed me to shoot at 2 separate units. Which made it worth it, but I tried to run the math on Vector Strike vs 1 TL devourer on AV:10 vehicle with 4+ Jink, and it is about the same. Average vector Strike is 3 hits. Average TL Devourer is 5.33 hits, but I would lose 1/2 of them to the Jink. However, the greater number of hits from the devourer reduces the unlucky roll where I get a 1, 2, 2 to wound, but it adds a chance that he rolls really well on his saves. So, it seems a toss up to me, is there anyone who would make a case for one over the other being more reliable?

Item 3:
My opponent ran a giant squad of terminators with Lightening Claws. 10-12. At 1850 he adds a 2nd giant squad. We were both running "standard" lists, that we had prebuilt, and the only thing we knew about each others list, is that I warned him I was brining 2 FMC's. His list seems as unbalanced as mine, only I happen to have a very, very effective counter to his terminators in the form of my Raveners. Between 6 Raveners and 13 HGaunts, I killed 7 Terminators in the turn I charged. Imagine I was playing Dakkafexes + TFexes + Biovores + Flyrants with no Raveners, Mawlocs or Exocrines, would I want to do something like assault with Dakkafexes? Maybe Tarpit them with a TFex? Feed them Gaunts? Or, hold back plinking at them with Devourers?

Edit for clarity.

Item 1: I don't think that I would change the list much without compromising what you've intended. Your scoring is pitiful.

Item 2: I, typically when given the choice to VS or shoot both sets of devs at a vehicle, I'll shoot both weapons. That's because of the additional hits, but also because you don't have to worry about positioning AFTER the VS. I find, that if a VS is just within range, you're simultaneously opening your FMC up to lots of bad things to happen (bringing it closer in range to more units and thereby increasing the chance you'll be grounded).

Item 3: If the terminators just have LC, then just avoid them. I wouldn't suggest throwing ANY MCs in there to "tarpit" them. What will happen is you lose your MC and he's smiling because his large assault unit accomplished what he intended to use it for. Your best bet is to keep everything out of range (except maybe dakkafexen or the Tfex). Shoot them down. They are slow and can't do anything but run in the shooting phase.

I would suggest this strategy against a large unit of LC terminators: Shoot the **** out of them with TL-devs and when they start closing the gap entice him with a ridiculously improbable charge distance (like 10" or more) keep the dakkafexen or Tfex static at that charge distance. Then you get your shooting phase AND his assault phase to kill of his leading models thereby also increasing the chance that he'll fail the charge and give you another round to shoot them down.

They die like Teq. Pump them full of shots and they'll fail their saves.

If the vehicle is basically in the path of where I wanted to go with my movement anyway, I'll VS - that way I get the chance to engage two targets with my Flyrant instead of one.

If I have to change plans to VS it, I'll just move normally and dakka the hell out of it. As you noted the outcome will be similar, but you're not letting your opponent influence your movement.

I'm with roxor on the shooting...I'd also go for flanks...make sure that if they take the middle of the board...like termies love to do...that they get pulled in one direction or the other.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Sidenote: This thread has been quite a journey and it's had it's ups and downs, but I'm very happy with the way it's gone overall. So, thanks to all of you.

tag8833 wrote:
I had a game yesterday. It brought about a few Tactical questions.

Item 1:
My opponent was a player I hadn't played before, who I had the impression was a pretty good player. Our game wasn't representative of his skill because he had never faced tyranids before, and he conceded on turn 3, which brings me up to 5-0 with my 1500 pts raveners list and 2-0 with an 1850 varient, and I'm starting to think it might be more legit than I first anticipated. I fear the day that I run into a monolith or Land Raider, or the IG tank with the S8 or 9 large blast (Executioner?). Anyways, the list has produced a consistency that I hadn't expected, and I wonder if anyone has comments on running a list this unbalanced. Also, any suggestions for updating the list to handle AV:14 without compromising what it does.

Without changing much your list, try getting a few more Zoeys. They are the absolute bane of AV14. Only other thing that can hurt them reliably is MCs but most won't be able to get that close.
So maybe 2 squads of 2 Zoey or more if you can find the points. Could also try to just completly hide them from LOS until they can shot or outflank them....but it's a lot more risky.

Who needs to pop AV14?

My rule of Land Raiders...they empty themselves.

So just be ready to eat the insides.

 ductvader wrote:
Who needs to pop AV14?

My rule of Land Raiders...they empty themselves.

So just be ready to eat the insides.

This. The only AV14 threat is Leman Russ'. Which we'll have to evaluate after the new IG codex drops - some of the rumors make me scared.

 ductvader wrote:
Who needs to pop AV14?

My rule of Land Raiders...they empty themselves.

So just be ready to eat the insides.

Baneblades/Shadowswords/Monolith shenanigans/Much killer land raider variants (like the Ares)/That guy who brings in reaver Titans to regular 40k games under lords of war and promptly nukes your entire army off the board in one go..

 ductvader wrote:
@tag

I know you showed interest when I posted it...but maybe my Tsunami list might inspire what you're looking for?

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/580517.page

My list is essentially stolen straight from that list. I ran your list a couple times, and then decided that Gargoyles were a good fit as a unit that can bubblewrap and tarpit things like great unclean ones or Mephiston. I really feel like a large squad of gargoyles is an upgrade to your list, because it can really help dictate who gets the charge. My beastpack ran into a beasts of Nurgle beastpack, and it was the gargoyles ability to tarpit the great unclean ones (Warp Speed + Iron Arm) that won me that game. In another game, I surrounded a drop pod Dreadnaught with Gargoyles to keep it from joining the assault between my Shrikes and the command squad.

The zoeys are a cheaper replacement for the Trygon Prime to get the list down to 1500. They tend to give up first blood, but are forgotten by turn 2. They also give me another couple psychic rolls.

The only other major change from you list was taking away the Devourers from the Shrikes. They aren't that useful, because you run the risk of killing yourself out of assault range, and you give up 1 attack in CC which can make a difference in combat resolution. Flesh Hooks have a shooting attack too, and they are a short enough range that they won't kill you out of assault range, but they can still provide overwatch, and the possibility of popping a transport so that you can get at the juicy meat inside.

roxor08 wrote:
Item 1: I don't think that I would change the list much without compromising what you've intended. Your scoring is pitiful.

I agree. But I have never played a game to conclusion with the list. I've either tabled my opponents, or they've conceded. I use the Gargoyles as bubblewrap, so all of my Gaunts start the game with a 3+ cover save. By turn 2, any strategy of killing my troops is forgotten as my fast units are upon them. My favorite thing in the world is when my opponent advances toward me in dawn of war, and my raveners can move 12", assault 8-9" and then consolidate another 3-4" It usually happens with transports that I use my flyrants to pop, and then my raveners to kill the occupants, and use the assault to sling-shot into turn 3 assault range of the rest of my opponent's army.

 Kain wrote:

 ductvader wrote:
Who needs to pop AV14?

My rule of Land Raiders...they empty themselves.

So just be ready to eat the insides.

Baneblades/Shadowswords/Monolith shenanigans/Much killer land raider variants (like the Ares)/That guy who brings in reaver Titans to regular 40k games under lords of war and promptly nukes your entire army off the board in one go..

LOW requires a LOW on your side to respond really.
Monolith has to get close for most of its shenanigans so a quick assault by an MC should put it down.
The killier Land Raider variants aren't that good overall. IMO the scariest is the Thunderfire cannon one - but that becomes a Flyrant target as even Zoeys are poorly designed to handle something with AV14 and a large range.

 Kain wrote:

 ductvader wrote:
Who needs to pop AV14?

My rule of Land Raiders...they empty themselves.

So just be ready to eat the insides.

Baneblades/Shadowswords/Monolith shenanigans/Much killer land raider variants (like the Ares)/That guy who brings in reaver Titans to regular 40k games under lords of war and promptly nukes your entire army off the board in one go..

Also, I've got a few guys in my local meta that like to run 2 Land Raider Crusaders, and reserve most of their softer targets. It just gives me a lack of targets. Maybe I would fare ok in a non-kill point version of that game, but my instincts are telling me that would be a bad matchup.

rigeld2 wrote:

 Kain wrote:

 ductvader wrote:
Who needs to pop AV14?

My rule of Land Raiders...they empty themselves.

So just be ready to eat the insides.

Baneblades/Shadowswords/Monolith shenanigans/Much killer land raider variants (like the Ares)/That guy who brings in reaver Titans to regular 40k games under lords of war and promptly nukes your entire army off the board in one go..

LOW requires a LOW on your side to respond really.
Monolith has to get close for most of its shenanigans so a quick assault by an MC should put it down.
The killier Land Raider variants aren't that good overall. IMO the scariest is the Thunderfire cannon one - but that becomes a Flyrant target as even Zoeys are poorly designed to handle something with AV14 and a large range.

The Ares has; A demolisher cannon, twinlinked assault cannons, TL'd heavy flamers.

Enough to threaten most any unit in the army and clear away whole units at a time.

Also; Tyranid LOWs are god awful.

A Heirophant shows up; plinks away uselessly at a reaver, then gets killed in one turn by D-strength hits that eradicate everything that happened to be near the Heirophant too.

The Heirodule? Don't make me laugh, Lysander can beat it in assault.

rigeld2 wrote:
Monolith has to get close for most of its shenanigans so a quick assault by an MC should put it down.

24" S8 AP:3 Large blast. It is going to massacre my Beasts / Shrikes. I only have 2 MC's in the list, and they have to stay flying to maintain survivability.

rigeld2 wrote:
The killier Land Raider variants aren't that good overall. IMO the scariest is the Thunderfire cannon one - but that becomes a Flyrant target as even Zoeys are poorly designed to handle something with AV14 and a large range.

I run an endless swarm based list that can ignore land raiders and sit on objectives. This list doesn't have that benefit. Not enough troops.

 Kain wrote:
The Ares has; A demolisher cannon, twinlinked assault cannons, TL'd heavy flamers.

And no transport capacity and costs a huge amount, right?
How do you deal with Vindicator right now? This isn't much killier than one of those. (1 more AV on the face and some extra guns)

Also; Tyranid LOWs are god awful.

Harridans are decent - annoying because they fall out of the sky like Flyrants do, but not bad other than that.
Other than that - yeah, that's why I don't play Escalation games.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

tag8833 wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
Monolith has to get close for most of its shenanigans so a quick assault by an MC should put it down.

24" S8 AP:3 Large blast. It is going to massacre my Beasts / Shrikes. I only have 2 MC's in the list, and they have to stay flying to maintain survivability.

It can only ever move 6" a turn. Keep your fast guys away from it.
Sacrificing a Flyrant (which isn't a guarantee - if you wreck it instead of explode it it's a huge LoS blocker) is sometimes worth it to get rid of a huge threat.

rigeld2 wrote:
The killier Land Raider variants aren't that good overall. IMO the scariest is the Thunderfire cannon one - but that becomes a Flyrant target as even Zoeys are poorly designed to handle something with AV14 and a large range.

I run an endless swarm based list that can ignore land raiders and sit on objectives. This list doesn't have that benefit. Not enough troops.

I disagree - Some of my lists I only run 2 troops (gants and Tervigon) and I ignore Land Raiders all day.

No matter what the argument is, I still don't consider a Zoanthrope to be "the bane" of AV 14.

First you have to do a pys test, then you have to hit, then you have to penetrate. A lot can go wrong in that sequence.

And all of this is assuming your target doesn't have some form of shield or cover save; which makes the odds even worse.

A solo zoey has something like a 25% chance of blowing up a LR...it's excellent for it's points...

Two carnifexes are much more reliable...but then you have a conflict...a massive number of points...and probable contact with a unit inside designed to kill...tada...your carnifexes.

 ductvader wrote:
A solo zoey has something like a 25% chance of blowing up a LR...it's excellent for it's points...

Two carnifexes are much more reliable...but then you have a conflict...a massive number of points...and proble contact with a unit inside designed to kill...tada...your carnifexes.

]
That's all well and good but doesn't do anything to stop a Reaver from turn one nuking your army into ineffectiveness.

 Kain wrote:

 ductvader wrote:
A solo zoey has something like a 25% chance of blowing up a LR...it's excellent for it's points...

Two carnifexes are much more reliable...but then you have a conflict...a massive number of points...and proble contact with a unit inside designed to kill...tada...your carnifexes.

]
That's all well and good but doesn't do anything to stop a Reaver from turn one nuking your army into ineffectiveness.

If you're facing a Reaver...you need a Void Shield Network or other tricks...I am talking about "standard 40k"

 ductvader wrote:

 Kain wrote:

 ductvader wrote:
A solo zoey has something like a 25% chance of blowing up a LR...it's excellent for it's points...

Two carnifexes are much more reliable...but then you have a conflict...a massive number of points...and proble contact with a unit inside designed to kill...tada...your carnifexes.

]
That's all well and good but doesn't do anything to stop a Reaver from turn one nuking your army into ineffectiveness.

If you're facing a Reaver...you need a Void Shield Network or other tricks...I am talking about "standard 40k"

Escalation is standard 40k as per my group and network of vassal friends.

The thought is that if you can't deal with a maximum D-strength pieplate Reaver then tough, bend over and hope they use lube.

 ductvader wrote:
A solo zoey has something like a 25% chance of blowing up a LR...it's excellent for it's points...

More like 11%.
=33/36*4/6*5/6*4/6*2/6
=Chance to cast * chance to hit * chance they don't deny * chance to pen (glances are useless) * chance to explode (AP2)

edit: Add in 5+ cover (not too hard to get) and it's down to ~7%. That's awesome!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kain wrote:
Escalation is standard 40k as per my group and network of vassal friends.

The thought is that if you can't deal with a maximum D-strength pieplate Reaver then tough, bend over and hope they use lube.

Then lots of VSR and a Harridan. Pretty much your only hope.

And why I don't play Escalation. Zoeys are gak.

rigeld2 wrote:
Then lots of VSR and a Harridan. Pretty much your only hope.

And why I don't play Escalation. Zoeys are gak.

Pretty much all of the elites except the Venom.

 Kain wrote:

 ductvader wrote:

 Kain wrote:

 ductvader wrote:
A solo zoey has something like a 25% chance of blowing up a LR...it's excellent for it's points...

Two carnifexes are much more reliable...but then you have a conflict...a massive number of points...and proble contact with a unit inside designed to kill...tada...your carnifexes.

]
That's all well and good but doesn't do anything to stop a Reaver from turn one nuking your army into ineffectiveness.

If you're facing a Reaver...you need a Void Shield Network or other tricks...I am talking about "standard 40k"

Escalation is standard 40k as per my group and network of vassal friends.

The thought is that if you can't deal with a maximum D-strength pieplate Reaver then tough, bend over and hope they use lube.

Then get new friends.

 Tyran wrote:

 Kain wrote:

 ductvader wrote:

 Kain wrote:

 ductvader wrote:
A solo zoey has something like a 25% chance of blowing up a LR...it's excellent for it's points...

Two carnifexes are much more reliable...but then you have a conflict...a massive number of points...and proble contact with a unit inside designed to kill...tada...your carnifexes.

]
That's all well and good but doesn't do anything to stop a Reaver from turn one nuking your army into ineffectiveness.

If you're facing a Reaver...you need a Void Shield Network or other tricks...I am talking about "standard 40k"

Escalation is standard 40k as per my group and network of vassal friends.

The thought is that if you can't deal with a maximum D-strength pieplate Reaver then tough, bend over and hope they use lube.

Then get new friends.

These are mostly friends I've had either since moving to South Africa, since serving in the Russian army, or even had since I was in primary school.

It's all in good fun.

By now we mostly play extensively homebrewed and houseruled 40k (to tb the point of being unrecognizable) but we still sometimes play something closer to the "normal" game.