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 Roci wrote:

 ductvader wrote:
Shreddershard is the only one I regularly use because marines like to drop on my tervigon...and he's gotten sick of it.

He? That's one odd terv.... just saying.

He's my only unit that takes it...and he shake and bakes marines with regularity.

 ductvader wrote:

 Roci wrote:

 ductvader wrote:
Shreddershard is the only one I regularly use because marines like to drop on my tervigon...and he's gotten sick of it.

He? That's one odd terv.... just saying.

He's my only unit that takes it...and he shake and bakes marines with regularity.

The oddity is that your Tervigon's descended from Seahorses.

Wakshaani wrote:

 ductvader wrote:

 Roci wrote:

 ductvader wrote:
Shreddershard is the only one I regularly use because marines like to drop on my tervigon...and he's gotten sick of it.

He? That's one odd terv.... just saying.

He's my only unit that takes it...and he shake and bakes marines with regularity.

The oddity is that your Tervigon's descended from Seahorses.

Gotcha...I've played Swarmy so much that I tend to think of my Tyranids all being masculine. I think I'm probably one of the only ones out their that doesn't submit to the whole Harpy/Crone/Dominatrix feminine ideology of bugs.

Tomorrow is my first tourney in 3 months (and only my 3rd in total), it's 1850 with no allies or dataslates, adepticon missions. I want to perform really well. I rebased my army, modified a Tyrant to also have 'twinlinked' devourers/devourer rifle, and now I have to decide whether to take an Exocrine or a Tyrannofex. Here is the list

Flyrant w/devourers, hive commander
Flyrant w/devourers
Tervigon (Outflanking)
Crone
Crone
Crone
Mawloc
Mawloc

30 Gants
3 Warriors
Venomthrope
Tyrannofex OR Exocrine


The first group is obviously in your face turn 1/2 and Tervigon is spawning/holding objectives on the opponents side.

The last 4 units start on board together and will move up together, obviously the gants out front, Warriors in the back for synapse and holding objectives late game, venomthrope saving lives and...either the Fex tanking and acid spraying Eldar/Tau troops mid field, or the Exocrine punching through White Scar bikes.

What do you guys think is best? The survivability of the Fex, or the killing power of the lone exocrine? Jy2, I would love to hear your thoughts if you're out there.

Wouldn't that be based off of what you think the majority of what your opponents are going to field? More Xenos or more Spess Mahreens?

No clue, its my new FLGS and have never done a tournament there, so I have no idea what to expect.

Considering you have a lot of answers for blobs (Crone Drool, Mawloc Pies) I would imagine the Exo would be more utility than a redundant flamer from the T-fex. I mean how much do you think you are going to get from +1 AC and a wound? And with the points you save, you can give that tervigon a thorax swarm. Tervigon's love swarms.

No, its a difference of -5 pts or точно 1850, so no template unfortunately.

 Iechine wrote:

Flyrant w/devourers, hive commander
Flyrant w/devourers
Tervigon (Outflanking)
Crone
Crone
Crone
Mawloc
Mawloc

30 Gants
3 Warriors
Venomthrope
Tyrannofex OR Exocrine

I agree that the Crone is better than the Harpy.

But I wonder if 2 Crones + 1 Harpy are better than 3 crones. The Harpy has some uses. The Imitative penalty can be helpful. It can drop spore mines. It can Pen vehicles more reliably and sometimes even hit more than one vehicle. S8 vector strike is better, but S6 vector strike still puts down marines and bikes easily. It is less dependent on perfect positioning to do work.

tag8833 wrote:

 Iechine wrote:

Flyrant w/devourers, hive commander
Flyrant w/devourers
Tervigon (Outflanking)
Crone
Crone
Crone
Mawloc
Mawloc

30 Gants
3 Warriors
Venomthrope
Tyrannofex OR Exocrine

I agree that the Crone is better than the Harpy.

But I wonder if 2 Crones + 1 Harpy are better than 3 crones. The Harpy has some uses. The Imitative penalty can be helpful. It can drop spore mines. It can Pen vehicles more reliably and sometimes even hit more than one vehicle. S8 vector strike is better, but S6 vector strike still puts down marines and bikes easily. It is less dependent on perfect positioning to do work.

I still say exocrine. If you're doubling up monsters and can pretty much cordon off your venomthrope from sniping in general by putting bodies in the way, means the survivability of the blob is already relevantly high.

Either/or. Actually, only thing that really makes me nervous is Mawlocs with no Lictors/Deathleaper. (If you're thinking of dropping a crone)

tag8833 wrote:

 Iechine wrote:

Flyrant w/devourers, hive commander
Flyrant w/devourers
Tervigon (Outflanking)
Crone
Crone
Crone
Mawloc
Mawloc

30 Gants
3 Warriors
Venomthrope
Tyrannofex OR Exocrine

I agree that the Crone is better than the Harpy.

But I wonder if 2 Crones + 1 Harpy are better than 3 crones. The Harpy has some uses. The Imitative penalty can be helpful. It can drop spore mines. It can Pen vehicles more reliably and sometimes even hit more than one vehicle. S8 vector strike is better, but S6 vector strike still puts down marines and bikes easily. It is less dependent on perfect positioning to do work.

The Harpy is great, but having enough vector strike angle's across the board (Especially Crisis suit killing ones) seems more beneficial than potentially assaulting with a Harpy. The twinlinked S9 HVC just isnt enough for me to consider.

captnobvious wrote:

tag8833 wrote:

 Iechine wrote:

Flyrant w/devourers, hive commander
Flyrant w/devourers
Tervigon (Outflanking)
Crone
Crone
Crone
Mawloc
Mawloc

30 Gants
3 Warriors
Venomthrope
Tyrannofex OR Exocrine

I agree that the Crone is better than the Harpy.

But I wonder if 2 Crones + 1 Harpy are better than 3 crones. The Harpy has some uses. The Imitative penalty can be helpful. It can drop spore mines. It can Pen vehicles more reliably and sometimes even hit more than one vehicle. S8 vector strike is better, but S6 vector strike still puts down marines and bikes easily. It is less dependent on perfect positioning to do work.

I still say exocrine. If you're doubling up monsters and can pretty much cordon off your venomthrope from sniping in general by putting bodies in the way, means the survivability of the blob is already relevantly high.

Either/or. Actually, only thing that really makes me nervous is Mawlocs with no Lictors/Deathleaper. (If you're thinking of dropping a crone)

If I were using 3xMawlocs, then Lictors came in. But that sort of list inevitably comes at the expense of scoring.

So, just curious. Considering the Mawloc attack is a STR6 Large Blast every other turn (effectively) anywhere on the board (no LOS needed) or the exo is a STR7 Large blast every turn (barring range). Like why would you pick one over the other?

Like I guess the pros/cons of the two comparatively is points value vs versatility?

 captnobvious wrote:
So, just curious. Considering the Mawloc attack is a STR6 Large Blast every other turn (effectively) anywhere on the board (no LOS needed) or the exo is a STR7 Large blast every turn (barring range). Like why would you pick one over the other?

Like I guess the pros/cons of the two comparatively is points value vs versatility?

Because the Mawloc isn''t about reburrowing at each opportunity and coming out Terrify every other turn. I swear some people don't read past that ability.

He's a S6/T6/W6 DEEPSTRIKING mc for 140 pts. The blast is just a bonus. Point for point, these things have as many attacks as Trygon's in close combat, you just aren't paying for a largely overpriced stat (5 WS) and get a free blast instead. They keep up with his aggressive assault FMC base, whereas Exocrine is situational. Locs are also 30 points cheaper.

 Iechine wrote:
Tomorrow is my first tourney in 3 months (and only my 3rd in total), it's 1850 with no allies or dataslates, adepticon missions. I want to perform really well. I rebased my army, modified a Tyrant to also have 'twinlinked' devourers/devourer rifle, and now I have to decide whether to take an Exocrine or a Tyrannofex. Here is the list

Flyrant w/devourers, hive commander
Flyrant w/devourers
Tervigon (Outflanking)
Crone
Crone
Crone
Mawloc
Mawloc

30 Gants
3 Warriors
Venomthrope
Tyrannofex OR Exocrine


The first group is obviously in your face turn 1/2 and Tervigon is spawning/holding objectives on the opponents side.

The last 4 units start on board together and will move up together, obviously the gants out front, Warriors in the back for synapse and holding objectives late game, venomthrope saving lives and...either the Fex tanking and acid spraying Eldar/Tau troops mid field, or the Exocrine punching through White Scar bikes.

What do you guys think is best? The survivability of the Fex, or the killing power of the lone exocrine? Jy2, I would love to hear your thoughts if you're out there.

I don't think either of them are the right answer to be honest, you have both of their roles already covered and they will just slow down your initial alpha strike. Take another Mawloc. I also think outflanking a 6 man Warrior unit will cost the same and do much more damage than that Tervigon. They will tear it up nicely in CC and really work well with your Mawloc's. Or just drop the unreliable outflanking troop unit, and spend 25 pts more on 5 lictors. These have 2 far more reliable entry methods than outflanking (infiltrate and no-scatter deepstrike) and hit MUCH harder than the Tervigon in CC, not to mention as a bonus provide deepstrike homing beacons for your Mawlocs. I run a very similar list to you and originally used outflanking as a new cheaper drop pod that could fit a full squad of anything - I ended up getting rid of it for unreliability, and the fact that even if you get the optimal side its still sometimes not enough and I'm asking myself why I didn't just run those guys up the board. If you are going to outflank something, sometimes it will be amazing - there is no denying that - but in case it isn't, I would at least change that Tervigon to a unit of Warriors + Barbed Strangler. These guys will hit much harder, be almost just as tanky, and will tear through anything that slows down your Mawloc's in CC. But yeah same can said about the Lictors though, which I once again would strongly recommend for this role. Feth scoring lol (that is one advantage the Tervigon does have on the lictors admittedly - however once again an unreliable one. Know how easy it is to tear apart a single Gant spawn every turn in your own deployment zone for most armies? Especially since those anti-infantry guns aren't getting much attention elsewhere).


My other suggestions would be pack Electroshock grubs on both Flyrants, yes you can only shoot 1 set of devourers the turn you use it, but just play a game or two with them if you are wondering why. At this stage I no longer look at Flyrants as 230 pts they are 240 pt units for me, that template makes its 10 points back every game. Also, take 15 devourers on your Gant unit. It will double the amount of shots it puts out, for only 60 points more. And you still have 45 shots left over after the first half of the squad dies. This is our best troop option, I run this combined with a 3 man warrior unit. Don't be tempted to outflank the Gants, you don't want to have your Synapse positioning (likely your Flyrant) have to be altered to go stop some Gants from derping out, just walk them up with the Warriors whhich once again should probably pack a Barbed Strangler. They are only 10 points. Pinning has the possibility to be game changing. Especially for a walking unit that might not be doing much else early on anyway.

tag8833 wrote:

 ductvader wrote:
I believe that JY would agree with me that giving up the devourers on the Shrikes is a bad idea...they get it for free and it's a pretty bad@ss gun for an effective 30" range.

If you want scytals...you should have taken Raveners.

Now I personally take Rending Claws on my Shrikes, Flesh Hooks, and I give 2-3 of them Boneswords...no Lash Whip necessary. And don't waste points upgrading their front ranks when they'll just die expensively instead of just dying.

Shrike's main protection come from being in close combat. Devourers jeopardize that by having the potential to kill enough units so that you fail the charge. If you take Devourers you should drop flesh hooks and take AG instead to have a better chance to make the charge.

Also the shooting profile of Flesh hooks is nothing to laugh at. 2 S6 shots. Compare that to 3 S4 shots or 3 S5 shots:
Flesh hooks are better against everything but T3 than Devourers. In fact they are better at T6+ than deathspitters.
Flesh Hooks are better at popping armor than Devourers or Deathspitters.
Flesh Hooks are better at overwatch against everything but T3 than devourers and better at anything T6+ than deathspitters. Also better against most walkers (AV13 still can't touch).

The only place Flesh hooks fall down is range. I think it is a good philosophy that if you are 10+" away from an enemy unit, you should be running instead of shooting. That way you have a better chance of getting HOW and rerolling charge distances. If your are within 6", Flesh hooks are great at shooting. It is the same reason JY prefers 2 TL-devourers on Carnifexes. You lose one turn of shooting, but gain an earlier charge possibility.

And when you do get into assault, doing 25% more attacks is worth it.

Aren't flesh hooks S: user?

It was mostly just a comparison of the blasts themselves, so effectively, yeah I was just comparing the two.

If you're looking for relatively cheap deep strikers, Mawlocs are certainly not bad, though lictors are a bit more efficient at it. 3 Lictors vs 1 Mawloc. Meh. I'm not really a fan of Instinctive guys floating around without a reliable synapse support. Thats kind of a personal call.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Flesh hooks got changed. Lost rending, became frag grenades. Still STR 6.

I take one Mawloc and use it much as I used the Doom of Malan'tai in the old book. Talk it up before the game and pretend it's really powerful, then drop it in and watch your opponent pour all their firepower into it instead of your bigger threats.

 DarkStarSabre wrote:
Ah. Sneaky sneaky.

I am however considering just switching to the electroshocks for just that reason.

But the thought of a random rending (AP2!) template being dropped onto terminators/centurions etc is tempting...

If you're interested, I've run the maths on the 3 Thorax Swarms and how effective they are against various Infantry targets.
http://thetyranidhive.proboards.com/thread/45826/thorax-swarms-maths

 Iechine wrote:
Tomorrow is my first tourney in 3 months (and only my 3rd in total), it's 1850 with no allies or dataslates, adepticon missions. I want to perform really well. I rebased my army, modified a Tyrant to also have 'twinlinked' devourers/devourer rifle, and now I have to decide whether to take an Exocrine or a Tyrannofex. Here is the list

Flyrant w/devourers, hive commander
Flyrant w/devourers
Tervigon (Outflanking)
Crone
Crone
Crone
Mawloc
Mawloc

30 Gants
3 Warriors
Venomthrope
Tyrannofex OR Exocrine


The first group is obviously in your face turn 1/2 and Tervigon is spawning/holding objectives on the opponents side.

The last 4 units start on board together and will move up together, obviously the gants out front, Warriors in the back for synapse and holding objectives late game, venomthrope saving lives and...either the Fex tanking and acid spraying Eldar/Tau troops mid field, or the Exocrine punching through White Scar bikes.

What do you guys think is best? The survivability of the Fex, or the killing power of the lone exocrine? Jy2, I would love to hear your thoughts if you're out there.

You know I'm a big fan of Tyranofex...

 captnobvious wrote:
It was mostly just a comparison of the blasts themselves, so effectively, yeah I was just comparing the two.

If you're looking for relatively cheap deep strikers, Mawlocs are certainly not bad, though lictors are a bit more efficient at it. 3 Lictors vs 1 Mawloc. Meh. I'm not really a fan of Instinctive guys floating around without a reliable synapse support. Thats kind of a personal call.

3 Lictors don't come in with a S6 large cover-ignoring armor-ignoring blast with re-rollable to Wounds. They also don't have smash attacks or built in AP 2. Both are good units and compliment each other well (for more than just pheromone trail) however I generally take Mawloc's first and Lictors after. They are just much less glass cannon and are the cheapest T6 wounds in the dex, while still seriously putting the hurt on both infantry with the blast, and any tanks they catch in combat, while still being able ok to rough and tumble with infantry in combat given their amazing points to Wounds value. They are still an aggressive unit, also very versatile, and don't throw away any tank for it. In the right list, I can't help but feel that they are the best unit in the codex.


I think two Flyrant's is reliable enough Synapse for, followed up by some Shrikes as well if you still feel nervous.

 SHUPPET wrote:

 captnobvious wrote:
It was mostly just a comparison of the blasts themselves, so effectively, yeah I was just comparing the two.

If you're looking for relatively cheap deep strikers, Mawlocs are certainly not bad, though lictors are a bit more efficient at it. 3 Lictors vs 1 Mawloc. Meh. I'm not really a fan of Instinctive guys floating around without a reliable synapse support. Thats kind of a personal call.

3 Lictors don't come in with a S6 large cover-ignoring armor-ignoring blast with re-rollable to Wounds. They also don't have smash attacks or built in AP 2. Both are good units and compliment each other well (for more than just pheromone trail) however I generally take Mawloc's first and Lictors after. They are just much less glass cannon and are the cheapest T6 wounds in the dex, while still seriously putting the hurt on both infantry with the blast, and any tanks they catch in combat, while still being able ok to rough and tumble with infantry in combat given their amazing points to Wounds value. They are still an aggressive unit, also very versatile, and don't throw away any tank for it. In the right list, I can't help but feel that they are the best unit in the codex.


I think two Flyrant's is reliable enough Synapse for, followed up by some Shrikes as well if you still feel nervous.

I like Mawlocs. The only problem I have with them is the same problem I have with every deep striker since 6th. You can't assault out of a deep strike. The way you're describing and playing them is akin to Distraction Carnifex in a drop pod. A friggin FANTASTIC strategy, just not my personal style.

Like my personal style is more akin to rapid melee with artillery support. I run Biovores all the time, and so my Heavy slots are usually full up. With dataslates, I might fanagle Mawlocs in but I'm still adjusting fire. Currently I'm having to find a substitute for Toxigaunts, as they were formerly my all time hero unit, and with the nerf to scything talons, it has gimped my army.

I like DISTRACTION MAWLOC, but if it weren't for the Living Artillery Node I'd prioritise other units in that HS slot.

I think you guys are misinterpreting me or I'm delivering it wrong its not about DISTRACTION MAWLOC, at least not in the suitable list. Using it in a walking list with Sstandard heavy support and artillery like Carnifexen, Exocrine,Tyrannofex, Biovores, etc and that's probably what role it will perform,.However,-look at lechines list - outflanking troops, 5x FMC and 2x tunneling MC's. The mawloc is silly tanky but what you have to remember is three Mawlocs hit as hard as 2 trygons- for just about the same price. They also come with the epic eentry blast, as well as tricks like hit & run, and burrowing away when near death then coming back with abother suicide blast and 2 t6 wounds that really should be dealt with. They are just as offensive as they are defensive and can kill well over their value consistently each game

"You guys".
Don't lump me in with professional/good/logical players like Raven. I find it offensive.

Honestly the guy's question wasn't even to add/subtract Mawlocs or anything like that. Strategically, he's running a spear (Venomthrope group), a small flank (outflanked Tervigon) and cavalry (Everything else). The question still remains. With the setup stated, what would be a better compliment to his go into his spear? Since he can't answer what foe he will be facing, its a question of Power vs Armor. The VERY slight improvement in defensive sats makes the T-fex have a slight edge in his strategy.


TL: DR. I say T-fex. You'll be sad at a tourney full of SPESS MAHREENS though.

Thanks for the compliment, captnobvious.

I'd also recommend a Tyrannofex to help clear out light infantry and give more durability for your ground forces.

 captnobvious wrote:


Honestly the guy's question wasn't even to add/subtract Mawlocs or anything like that. Strategically, he's running a spear (Venomthrope group), a small flank (outflanked Tervigon) and cavalry (Everything else). The question still remains. With the setup stated, what would be a better compliment to his go into his spear? Since he can't answer what foe he will be facing, its a question of Power vs Armor. The VERY slight improvement in defensive sats makes the T-fex have a slight edge in his strategy.

^ This.

However, the roadblock I come to is the sheer amount of AP1/2 out there. I feel like BOTH the Fex and Exocrine are relying heavily on the Venomthrope and screen to survive to the end game. But then the Fex's guaranteed hits are very attractive. Still havent decided with just a few hours to go. : /

Fex still has an extra wound.

And it's not the stuff with high AP that is really relevant, it's mass firing. When volume of fire hits the fex, you're going to have to roll 2's instead of 3's, and that's when it's relevant.

Personally, I wouldn't Hive Commander and outflank. I'd march everyone as a blob and buy a regen or thorax swarms all around. My .02

 Iechine wrote:

 captnobvious wrote:


Honestly the guy's question wasn't even to add/subtract Mawlocs or anything like that. Strategically, he's running a spear (Venomthrope group), a small flank (outflanked Tervigon) and cavalry (Everything else). The question still remains. With the setup stated, what would be a better compliment to his go into his spear? Since he can't answer what foe he will be facing, its a question of Power vs Armor. The VERY slight improvement in defensive sats makes the T-fex have a slight edge in his strategy.

^ This.

However, the roadblock I come to is the sheer amount of AP1/2 out there. I feel like BOTH the Fex and Exocrine are relying heavily on the Venomthrope and screen to survive to the end game. But then the Fex's guaranteed hits are very attractive. Still havent decided with just a few hours to go. : /

Well here's me thinking you were playing a faster hard hitting aggressive list, with Tervigon outflanking for a troop to keep up with the pack, and Mawloc's deepstriking in with them all, with Venomthrope to give Flyers a cover save turn 1. Termagants to take an outflanking Tervigon and Warriors to walk them up the board to where the fighting is. Did not realise you were doing something completely different..?

Well don't you feel silly then.

Not really, as my advice was still accurate based on the sensible way to play the list, but meh

It's probably some combination of "these are the models I have ready" and "this is the way I want to play it. So the complete revamp might not be quite the correct answer.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
So. Going to go ahead and change subject. With the points drop on them, and being able to still run full options:

Is there really a reason to take Raveners over Shrikes anymore other than maybe Red Terror? They had an extra attack before, now its just a single point of Initiative. So with synapse, shadow, and fearless. Is there much of a reason to take raveners anymore (dataslates aside).

So just trying to work out my list for a 5 game 5 week Tournament, it's 2k with no Forge World, and one FOC but I've been allowed to use the dataslates. So at the moment I have this....

Flyrant LW/BS, 1 x Devourers, Electrogrubs.

Venomthrope
Zoanthrope

30 x Termagants 10 Devourers, 20 Fleshbourers
Tervigon

Skyblight Formation
Flyrant 2 x Devourers, Electrogrubs.

3 x 10 Gargoyles
Harpy
Harpy
Crone.


That puts me at 1540 so I've got 460 points to put into my Heavy Support, and can't decide on what mix of Biovores, Carnifexes and Snakes would work best. The other interesting difference with this tournament is you can change your list up to 3 times, at any time.