The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (Eldar Tactica p.318 & 319)

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**KillerWabbit**

Just a question, but shouldn't all of this list theorycraft be in a different forum?

**ductvader**

KillerWabbit wrote:
Just a question, but shouldn't all of this list theorycraft be in a different forum?

A fair point, but at this point this thread has expanded well beyond any individual forum category. And Tyranid tactica heavily relies upon synergy between units. Whereas you can discuss almost all of the applications of something like Sternguard without ever talking about a different marine unit.

**pinecone77**

ductvader wrote:
I just played a 1250!

We're in an escalation league and I'm trying to paint things I don't always use or don't even have yet.

My List

HQ
-Dakkaflyrant (Paroxysm, Warp Blast)

ELITE
-Venomthrope
-Zoanthrope (He got onslaught!)

TROOP
-Tervigon (Regeneration, Electroshock Grubs) (Took Dominion)
-3 Warriors (Strangler)
-30 Termagants

HEAVY
-2 Carnifexes (TL Devourers, Stranglethorn)
-Exocrine

Thinking about moving pts around in the next 250 jump and getting Deathleaper and some stealers.

That might be a lot of fun

You know me...I'd buy a Tyranofex(Adrenal, Thorax Hive), and double up the Zoey Brood...

**Eldercaveman**

ductvader wrote:
KillerWabbit wrote:
Just a question, but shouldn't all of this list theorycraft be in a different forum?

A fair point, but at this point this thread has expanded well beyond any individual forum category. And Tyranid tactica heavily relies upon synergy between units. Whereas you can discuss almost all of the applications of something like Sternguard without ever talking about a different marine unit.

Indeed this thread would probably be more aptly named 'The Hivemind'

**SHUPPET**

bodazoka wrote:
SHUPPET wrote:
We can agree to disagree on opinion subjective statements like the versatility of the new codex, but we can't agree to disagree on you speaking incorrectly for everybody by saying all the complaints were due to us not recieving a high-level tourney build when it was only a minority that felt this way and most of us were complaining about the sincere issues of the dex. If you want clarification on this I suggest you go back and actually read the threads in question that you are speaking on, because at this stage everything has been said too many times already to repeat again.

Widely inaccurate.. I read every post on the rumors and release threads and whilst there were many complaints regarding what you have outlined above the fact that Tyranids were "non competitive" was the biggest gripe players had. If you would like another reference go read the comments on the IG codex, whilst allot of people were un happy things were removed once they realized there were a few tournament winning builds the "attitude" of the threads and opinions changed.

Looking at the Necron codex and you have the same situation, there are many, many units in that which are terrible and the fluff was drastically changed but not many complained about that when 6th was dropped... (yes I know it was released in 5th)

Most people care about the competitiveness of the army over any other consideration, that is a fact which is proven time and time again. But we have had this discussion before I believe and I don't think I will change your mind over this one...

Automatically Appended Next Post:

luke1705 wrote:
Agree to disagree. I've used many models to great success. I know I'm not the most experienced general and I certainly don't play in the most competitive meta, but with few exceptions I've found most of the codex to be perfectly playable in a casual setting. I am curious, however, to know which units you find to be impossible to use? I will certainly concede the pyrovore and the rippers, plus old one eye, the sky slasher swarms and the shrikes. I suppose that is more entries than just a few, but they are spread nicely across the FOCs, with only 2 FA slots being "lost". Maybe I'm not familiar enough with other codices, but does having 1 bad entry in each FOC make a horrible codex? I'm not saying that I'm happy with the uninspired job that was done with the codex. I mean the cut and paste fluff alone....come on. But I really have no overarching issues with useless units everywhere I look.

Necrons:

1. Lychguards are pretty bad, 1 wound models with a 3+ armour save for 40 points each that only carry Warscythes. If you swap the Scythe for a shield and sword (extra 5 ppm) you get a power weapon and a cool ability to "deflect" a shot back at the enemy on a 4+ but it only works with AP3 attacks (as your armour save is better) and only within 6" of the enemy. Dakka will end these guys super easy as they are walking 6" across the board.
2. Praetorians are better because they are jump infantry but are still 1 wound models with a 3+ for 40 points each. Still a bad unit that hardly any one takes as they will die super easy.
3. Ctan Shard would be good if he could make it across to board! super expensive model that can be ignored easy and doesn't really pack that much of a punch in cc v a dedicated cc unit and only has a 4++ with 4 wounds (T7)
4. Flayed ones are so bad.. so so bad..
5. Stalkers are also pretty bad (but all walkers are really) 150 points for a walker with a 2 shot melta, it can give twin linked to units which is nice but hardly worth it's cost and will die.
6. Tomb blades are ok.. kinda meh
7. Destroyers are also ok, over priced a little but decent all though your hardly ever going to take them
8. Doomsday arks sound good in theory but are terrible in play, the large blast 72" str 9 AP1 template sounds like death but in general play opponents get cover saves or position so you cant see them (as you cant move the tank) and you scatter. V hordes it might be better (still 175 points though)

So.. there are a number of OK to Meh to Bad to Terrible units in the Necron codex. The difference between the nids and the necrons are wraiths, twin linked super durable very cheap Str 7 death (AB's and Flyers), Warlord's getting back up cheese, making you punch yourself in the face cheese and late objective grabbing Eldar style cheese.

Oh look at that, another non Tyranid player talking out his ass....

Here's the thread. http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/572719.page Number one complaint was, is, and has been, the fact that we lack versatility (to use one broad statement to define a lot of things). We have so much unplayable junk in our codex, more than any other army. Things that were unplayable last ed GOT NERFED, even before factoring in assault changes and whatever else to their point costs. That is not to say that there is not always going to be a few people who look at the dex's strongest build and judge from there - I actually made a thread recently pointing out how a lot of people's attitudes changed with the release of Skyblight, and how it became pretty transparent that a lot of them did not care about the flaws in the codex and were satisfied with even one, completely linear, tournament winning build. However it is pretty silly at this point to suggest things like this codex is balanced internally. If you were to look at the top 20 worst units in the game, we would have 10 of them. There is so much trash made up for by so much good stuff. The fact is at this stage, anyone saying we are a weak codex is being closeminded and outlandish, we have Skyblight. But not as outlandish as saying we are a versatile codex where "almost everything is viable in the right list" (exact quote), because we also have Rippers Pyrovores Swarmlord Skyslashers Raveners Genestealers Haruspex Old One Eye etc etc

And talking about Necrons here is not only irrelevant. Go find a necron thread.

**PrinceRaven**

I, for one, am sick of people telling me why I'm upset about the new Codex.

**luke1705**

PrinceRaven wrote:
I, for one, am sick of people telling me why I'm upset about the new Codex.

Well you know what they say. Nobody knows you quite like some random person that you've never met before. I do agree though. Rather than dwelling on the shortcomings of the codex, I'd rather try and make lemonade. For example, I'm not convinced that lictors are all bad, even without Mawloc synergy. Has anyone used them with some success?

**bodazoka**

SHUPPET wrote:
Oh look at that, another non Tyranid player talking out his ass....

Here's the thread. http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/572719.page Number one complaint was, is, and has been, the fact that we lack versatility (to use one broad statement to define a lot of things). We have so much unplayable junk in our codex, more than any other army. Things that were unplayable last ed GOT NERFED, even before factoring in assault changes and whatever else to their point costs. That is not to say that there is not always going to be a few people who look at the dex's strongest build and judge from there - I actually made a thread recently pointing out how a lot of people's attitudes changed with the release of Skyblight, and how it became pretty transparent that a lot of them did not care about the flaws in the codex and were satisfied with even one, completely linear, tournament winning build. However it is pretty silly at this point to suggest things like this codex is balanced internally. If you were to look at the top 20 worst units in the game, we would have 10 of them. There is so much trash made up for by so much good stuff. The fact is at this stage, anyone saying we are a weak codex is being closeminded and outlandish, we have Skyblight. But not as outlandish as saying we are a versatile codex where "almost everything is viable in the right list" (exact quote), because we also have Rippers Pyrovores Swarmlord Skyslashers Raveners Genestealers Haruspex Old One Eye etc etc

And talking about Necrons here is not only irrelevant. Go find a necron thread.

Why so upset dude? And FWIW I play Tyranids and Necron's (so does JY2 and Im sure his opinions are valid?). Was also responding to a direct query about other codecs. Just to be 100% all though I quoted you I was responding specifically to the bolded part. I think we have some common ground on that considering you yourself saw a change in attitude once the skyblight formation was released? suddenly it was rainbows and lollipops for allot of people on here!

SHUPPET wrote:
We can agree to disagree on opinion subjective statements like the versatility of the new codex, but we can't agree to disagree on you speaking incorrectly for everybody by saying all the complaints were due to us not recieving a high-level tourney build when it was only a minority that felt this way and most of us were complaining about the sincere issues of the dex. If you want clarification on this I suggest you go back and actually read the threads in question that you are speaking on, because at this stage everything has been said too many times already to repeat again.

I have played most of those things you mentioned above and totally 100% agree they are terrible! and that the difference between a good unit and a crap unit in the Nids dex is wide.

**SHUPPET**

luke1705 wrote:
PrinceRaven wrote:
I, for one, am sick of people telling me why I'm upset about the new Codex.

Well you know what they say. Nobody knows you quite like some random person that you've never met before. I do agree though.

Hmm Luke, this is pretty hypocritical and quite contradictory to other statements of yours such as:

luke1705 wrote:
Though people rag on the new codex a lot, that is because there is no real tournament-level power build that exists.

That's kind of.... the definition of telling us all why we are upset over the new codex. When in reality there is a multitude of reasons and that is seriously a minor one.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

bodazoka wrote:
SHUPPET wrote:
Oh look at that, another non Tyranid player talking out his ass....

Here's the thread. http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/572719.page Number one complaint was, is, and has been, the fact that we lack versatility (to use one broad statement to define a lot of things). We have so much unplayable junk in our codex, more than any other army. Things that were unplayable last ed GOT NERFED, even before factoring in assault changes and whatever else to their point costs. That is not to say that there is not always going to be a few people who look at the dex's strongest build and judge from there - I actually made a thread recently pointing out how a lot of people's attitudes changed with the release of Skyblight, and how it became pretty transparent that a lot of them did not care about the flaws in the codex and were satisfied with even one, completely linear, tournament winning build. However it is pretty silly at this point to suggest things like this codex is balanced internally. If you were to look at the top 20 worst units in the game, we would have 10 of them. There is so much trash made up for by so much good stuff. The fact is at this stage, anyone saying we are a weak codex is being closeminded and outlandish, we have Skyblight. But not as outlandish as saying we are a versatile codex where "almost everything is viable in the right list" (exact quote), because we also have Rippers Pyrovores Swarmlord Skyslashers Raveners Genestealers Haruspex Old One Eye etc etc

And talking about Necrons here is not only irrelevant. Go find a necron thread.

Why so upset dude? And FWIW I play Tyranids and Necron's (so does JY2 and Im sure his opinions are valid?). Was also responding to a direct query about other codecs. Just to be 100% all though I quoted you I was responding specifically to the bolded part. I think we have some common ground on that considering you yourself saw a change in attitude once the skyblight formation was released? suddenly it was rainbows and lollipops for allot of people on here!

Haha glad you agree, although you can see my confusion being that YOU DID NOT BOLD ANY PART of my quoted statement. I still disagree with you a little tho, I feel that most the complaints where definitely about valid concerns like the imbalances inside the codex. However, I do doubt that a lot of that was sincere as with the release of Skyblight, it certainly feels like all those "valid concerns" was just an outlet for peoples rage that we didn't get a top tier build. Seriously, how are people happy with Skyblight? Its one of the stupidest formations released, it's an entire army list written for you. If you cared about anything besides cheap victorys, you would have been downright disappointed with the dataslates. They fixed nothing that needed it. (i also play Necrons btw - not my main though

)

**PrinceRaven**

luke1705 wrote:
Rather than dwelling on the shortcomings of the codex, I'd rather try and make lemonade. For example, I'm not convinced that lictors are all bad, even without Mawloc synergy. Has anyone used them with some success?

I have tried to and have confirmed my suspicions that even with Mawloc synergy they are terrible against any competent opponent.

**ductvader**

Have you tried the forest brood or deathleapers brood? They can do some work!

**PrinceRaven**

I do not actually own that many Lictors, so I haven't, but it's rare that spamming something terrible makes it good, usually it just means a greater percentage of your army is terrible.

That being said, I have heard rumours on the wind that the Deathleaper formation can be used effectively, even against competent opponents, so I'm not entirely discounting it as a possibility.

**tetrisphreak**

When a 14 point genestealer has the same in-game balance and effectiveness as a 14 point space marine I will consider the codex balanced overall.

Maybe changes in 7th edition will somehow reflect that (consolidation into close combat, assault after an outflank move, etc). Maybe.

**Xyptc**

PrinceRaven wrote:
I do not actually own that many Lictors, so I haven't, but it's rare that spamming something terrible makes it good, usually it just means a greater percentage of your army is terrible.

That being said, I have heard rumours on the wind that the Deathleaper formation can be used effectively, even against competent opponents, so I'm not entirely discounting it as a possibility.

Yes and no I think. I've messed around with DLAB quite a bit (I do think it's a really cool idea for a formation, enough so for me to buy the two more Lictors I needed to run it without proxying).

If you face an enemy vulnerable to morale, then DLAB is really effective (helping you force all sorts of leadership-based fun). I run a single Mawloc along with them and the precision placement you can get has turned a few situations around for me. Fearless armies are a lot harder to crack though, so building an army around DLAB and Leadership-effects isn't going to work everywhere you run it. DLAB + Shadows nerfs psychic-based opponents up close beautifully too.

One thing I have noticed that I think is under-estimated with this formation is that while yes, you've got six fairly fragile units out there... you've also got six extra small, dangerous units out there. Isolated units are easily picked off by one or two Lictors, and parking lots get overwhelmed easily enough (especially if you also throw in that Mawloc).

It's definitely not a meta-changing formation with some magical "master this and you win forever" property, but DLAB is a lot of fun if you are willing to work with it a little. The Forest Brood I've only used once, and it didn't have as much of an impact as DLAB.

**SHUPPET**

Really on point ^ Deathleaper formation is pretty much the only way I take Lictors, as I've said before it has obvious disadvantages but the advantages counter balance. I think its better at higher point levels though, and mileage will vary every game. They are still better in almost every way to regular lictor squads.

**Eldercaveman**

One army I've yet to see much talk about is Iyanden Eldar? Has anyone had much experience against that, how do we fair against WraithGuard/Blades/Lords/Knights?

**PrinceRaven**

Yes I have lots of experience against those sorts of lists, How do we fair? As someone too poor to afford Hive Crones, horribly. Your shooting is a joke, with the exception of a Reaper Tyrant your melee is a joke, your conditional Fearless is a joke and your multiple wounds? Also a joke. I find myself considering a big blob or 2 of Gargoyles/Gaunts with Toxin Sacs and a second Exocrine just to deal with Iyanden fetching Eldar.

However, I expect those Hive Crone spammers and swarm players out there have a different story.

**DarkStarSabre**

Ok, some feedback from the tournament last week....

Results 2 wins, 1 loss.

The wins were against a Sisters list that failed to bring anti-air and the same Space Marine player from the previous week. Again, both were near enough tabled.

Now the loss...the loss was painful. It was against a White Scars Bikestar list complete with allied Space Wolves.

Things to note - the Bikestar is annoying. It is the bane of 'nids. Nothing like a 2+ EW FNP T5 chapter master to drive you up the wall. Add to the the rudeness of a bike mounted, 2+ save divination Rune Priest who just so happened to get the power that allowed him to reroll armour saves.....

Ugh. I just simply could not dent that. I couldn't risk Carnifexes going in due to Khan being there as well and even the Tyrants were hard pressed to impact it. I will also note that this was the only game that I did not get first turn or Seize and that he got some luck right off the bat with an Orbital Barrage writing off one Crone straight off the line. Seriously, the sodding thing just hit the crone. If it had scattered a few inches more the Crone would have lived and the Tyrant that was hit would not have cared.

Also, the Rune Staff with its ability to straight up block psychic powers on a 4+ regardless of what they actually are? Yeaaaah, not a good match up. I get the feeling that if he had NOT rolled that one psychic power up it would have gone differently as well - the fact he could simply negate the vast majority of my firepower through rerolling saves AND then getting FNP....

Well, that was rude.

Things I learned from that....

How long before Space Wolves get looked at and get those shenanigans taken away? Seriously, 80% of that was the damn Rune Priest on his own - rerolling saves and negating a large amount of Dominions, Catalysts and Onslaughts through a 4+ is what caused the problem.

**Eldercaveman**

PrinceRaven wrote:
Yes I have lots of experience against those sorts of lists, How do we fair? As someone too poor to afford Hive Crones, horribly. Your shooting is a joke, with the exception of a Reaper Tyrant your melee is a joke, your conditional Fearless is a joke and your multiple wounds? Also a joke. I find myself considering a big blob or 2 of Gargoyles/Gaunts with Toxin Sacs and a second Exocrine just to deal with Iyanden fetching Eldar.

However, I expect those Hive Crone spammers and swarm players out there have a different story.

The reason I ask is I have one in my upcoming league fixtures, the army I am using is a Skyblight, 30 man blob of mixed gants, Tervigon, Biovores, 2 x mawlocs, assassin Flyrant, venom and Zoanthrope.

**foto69man**

So.................new to the Hive mind and loving it. Used an Endless Swarm formation to great effect and fear tactics today ;-)

On another note, I like doing fun/interesting/unexpected things...Looking in IA4: The Anphelion Project I see the entries for Brood Nests, Spore Chimneys, and Capillary towers...but only points costs for the Brood Nests. IA Apocalypse Second Edition has a Spore Chimney Infestation Formation...and says 25 + Models...and refers back to the IA4 book. Can anyone close the loop for me and point me to the Book/Page number for the points costs?

I greatly appreciate it! And JY2, although you play with robots...I still like you for your Bugs.

**Eldercaveman**

foto69man wrote:
So.................new to the Hive mind and loving it. Used an Endless Swarm formation to great effect and fear tactics today ;-)

On another note, I like doing fun/interesting/unexpected things...Looking in IA4: The Anphelion Project I see the entries for Brood Nests, Spore Chimneys, and Capillary towers...but only points costs for the Brood Nests. IA Apocalypse Second Edition has a Spore Chimney Infestation Formation...and says 25 + Models...and refers back to the IA4 book. Can anyone close the loop for me and point me to the Book/Page number for the points costs?

I greatly appreciate it! And JY2, although you play with robots...I still like you for your Bugs.

Hey foto, welcome to the Hive! Most of the stuff from IA4 is outdated now, and expect an update by the end of the month, early June time. However all of the terrain you are talking about is gone from the books in terms of rules. No Models = No Rules. And Forge World have no plans for making them again as they said it just didnt sell before hand.

**Wakshaani**

As an aside, for Termagants, my current loadout is for take-on-all-comer games, so I run with 9 Fleshborers, 9 Spinefists, and 2 Stranglewebs (Yeah, I'm the one guy!) for a 90 pt squad. Enough bodies to hold a point, small enough to hang in cover, decent firepower that changes depending on what kind of infantry I'm fighting (IE, do Spines or Borers go in the casualty line?) and, yeah, everybody hates Stranglewebs, but a pinning test template is still a pining test template.

**PrinceRaven**

My issue with stranglewebs is that it's difficult to actually cause the unsaved wound to force the pinning check.

**Eldercaveman**

Does Shadow in the Warp effect stubborn units, I know this is a big of a YMDC question but this thread has become such an almgamation of different sub forums, one more can't hurt...

**luke1705**

Eldercaveman wrote:
Does Shadow in the Warp effect stubborn units, I know this is a big of a YMDC question but this thread has become such an almgamation of different sub forums, one more can't hurt...

Interesting question. I'm not really sure where the debate is coming from. The rulebook states that stubborn units ignore any penalties to their leadership for the purposes of morale and pinning. That being said, it appears that the penalty still exists even for them when attempting to manifest psychic powers or taking leadership tests that are not specifically morale checks, as the rules clarify that morale checks are a specific subset of leadership checks, so if a model is stubborn, they don't care about morale but that doesn't mean that they don't care about their leadership.

So, in short, they are affected, but at certain points they are able to override the effects and just not care (resolving combat, pinning).

Even fearless models appear to be affected by Shadow in the Warp. It also makes sense thematically. It doesn't matter if you're afraid or a stone-faced Psyker. If your connection to the warp gets messed with by the Hive Mind, who knows what might happen? THE PERILS!

**bodazoka**

Anyone got some tips v CSM? specifically the deamon prince? I am unsure of what the best unit's are for taking this guy out? it generally flies around the board rolling 5's and 6's for extra attacks and murdering all of my MC's with impunity!

My current Idea is going second (hopefully) and reserving everything squishy whilst flying around the board myself killing his troops and just dogging the Deamon?

**PrinceRaven**

I generally just dakka/Vector Strike them down with my flying Hive Tyrants.

**N.I.B.**

Tournaments in the US seem ok with using formations, but how about the UK, are formations mainly allowed? And Australia?

**Eldercaveman**

N.I.B. wrote:
Tournaments in the US seem ok with using formations, but how about the UK, are formations mainly allowed? And Australia?

I know the tournament I run and many others around my area allow them, there are a few that have still to catch up but not many.

**ductvader**

They're generally seen as fair...I've only seen certain ones disallowed when tournaments require them to fit within FoC.

...like Deathleaper's assassin brood not being able to be taken because it would be 5 elite spots.

But, that's going away as well.

EDIT: The next post should push us to 100 pages!...I think.