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 ductvader wrote:
They're generally seen as fair...I've only seen certain ones disallowed when tournaments require them to fit within FoC.

...like Deathleaper's assassin brood not being able to be taken because it would be 5 elite spots.

But, that's going away as well.

EDIT: The next post should push us to 100 pages!...I think.

Let me do the honours:

Mawloc = best unit in the codex

^this guy...

^^that guy indeed!

Anyone else still finding after all this time our codex isn't getting the respect it deserves from our opponents.... Untill after the game?

Going by the preview video released today from GW regarding 7th edition, Lords of War will have their own slot in the core rulebook FOC for battle-forged armies.

I foresee my harridan in lots of future battles post 5/24/2014.

So let's discuss these.

1. 4ed consolidate in to combat is in
2. If you fail to cast a power you can't cast it the rest of the game
3. Every unit including vehicles will now score
4. Unbound armies may not contest objectives
5. Lords of war are in
6. Escalation and stronghold remain as they are now
7. Vehicles will be harder to kill the chart changes once more.
8. The book will come out in 3 options Art like warhammer visions, Fluff book, and one that only contains rules and that one is about as think as the current SM book.
9.difficult terrain is just -2 inches
10. Wound allocation has changed a bit.not super clear as to how.
11. D-weapons toned down but he was unclear as what that meant so from the sounds of it they will still be super ugly.

How do you see your army composition and tactics changing because of it?

Drop my troop Tervigon and gants, take minimum size Warrior squads, get MOAR CARNIFEXES.

 ductvader wrote:
So let's discuss these.

1. 4ed consolidate in to combat is in
2. If you fail to cast a power you can't cast it the rest of the game
3. Every unit including vehicles will now score
4. Unbound armies may not contest objectives
5. Lords of war are in
6. Escalation and stronghold remain as they are now
7. Vehicles will be harder to kill the chart changes once more.
8. The book will come out in 3 options Art like warhammer visions, Fluff book, and one that only contains rules and that one is about as think as the current SM book.
9.difficult terrain is just -2 inches
10. Wound allocation has changed a bit.not super clear as to how.
11. D-weapons toned down but he was unclear as what that meant so from the sounds of it they will still be super ugly.

How do you see your army composition and tactics changing because of it?

1. A boon for us, allowing us to keep pushing once we hit the lines. Which the flying circus does. Fast.
2. This might shaft us. Bit of bad luck and you could lose your catalysts and dominions. Zoeys even more of a liability unless they seriously change how psychic shooting attacks work - seriously, make them autohit already.
3. WELL NOW. This is just a huge boon to us. Seriously, there is no reason to go spam happy with troops now.
4. I seriously wonder who is going to play with Unbound?
5. Meh. Seriously. Let's hope the new big critter in work at FW is worthwhile.
6. Not so fussed about this either.
7. I could boo at this. If hull points remain we'll be fine - if not we have a problem again.
8. Hurrah? I could do with a fluff free rulebook.
9. HAH. Did difficult terrain bother us anyhow?
10. Curious.
11. Toned down is better than nothing.

 ductvader wrote:
So let's discuss these.

1. 4ed consolidate in to combat is in
2. If you fail to cast a power you can't cast it the rest of the game
3. Every unit including vehicles will now score
4. Unbound armies may not contest objectives
5. Lords of war are in
6. Escalation and stronghold remain as they are now
7. Vehicles will be harder to kill the chart changes once more.
8. The book will come out in 3 options Art like warhammer visions, Fluff book, and one that only contains rules and that one is about as think as the current SM book.
9.difficult terrain is just -2 inches
10. Wound allocation has changed a bit.not super clear as to how.
11. D-weapons toned down but he was unclear as what that meant so from the sounds of it they will still be super ugly.

How do you see your army composition and tactics changing because of it?

Either Flyrants and more Flyrants, or Mawlocs and more Mawlocs.

Scoring venoms and lictors would be nuts...heck...swarms might even see play.

I foresee Battle-forged being house ruled as the standard way to play, with unbound games only coming as a result of a conversation between two people.

However as stated above, i have no qualms over fielding my super heavy flyer in a standard game of 40K once the Lord of War slot has been injected into the main game.

Assuming these other rumors are true (the lord of war one is, but that doesn't mean all the others are) then I could see my genestealers making a return to the table with Consolidation to CC.

Aside from that I just need to see how it all shakes out. Just about 12 more days and we will know it all (probably sooner than then actually).

Just making everything forged scoring and unbound noncontesting immediately makes that an uphill battle.

Even rigeld might as well take forged because instead of taking more fexes, his fexes would just be scoring.

EDIT:What we really need is First Blood gone.

 ductvader wrote:
So let's discuss these.

1. 4ed consolidate in to combat is in
2. If you fail to cast a power you can't cast it the rest of the game
3. Every unit including vehicles will now score
4. Unbound armies may not contest objectives
5. Lords of war are in
6. Escalation and stronghold remain as they are now
7. Vehicles will be harder to kill the chart changes once more.
8. The book will come out in 3 options Art like warhammer visions, Fluff book, and one that only contains rules and that one is about as think as the current SM book.
9.difficult terrain is just -2 inches
10. Wound allocation has changed a bit.not super clear as to how.
11. D-weapons toned down but he was unclear as what that meant so from the sounds of it they will still be super ugly.

How do you see your army composition and tactics changing because of it?

1 good for Nids, make cc units a bit better
2 bad for NIds
3 bad for NIds
4 not sure
5 bad for NIds
6 bad for NIds
7 bad for NIds
8 not relevant
9 potentially an ok change
10 not sure
11 neutral - AP1 etc still bad.

Overall other codexes benefit more from this.

I don't understand your answers for 3 and 4.

Those should be huge benefits for us.

Every unit being scoring is a buff to Nids, but it's a bigger buff to a lot of other armies. Do you really want to deal with scoring Riptides?

 PrinceRaven wrote:
Every unit being scoring is a buff to Nids, but it's a bigger buff to a lot of other armies. Do you really want to deal with scoring Riptides?

I'm cool with it If my Tsunami list is scoring.

Or deathleaper's ninjas...

 ductvader wrote:
So let's discuss these.

1. 4ed consolidate in to combat is in
2. If you fail to cast a power you can't cast it the rest of the game
3. Every unit including vehicles will now score
4. Unbound armies may not contest objectives
5. Lords of war are in
6. Escalation and stronghold remain as they are now
7. Vehicles will be harder to kill the chart changes once more.
8. The book will come out in 3 options Art like warhammer visions, Fluff book, and one that only contains rules and that one is about as think as the current SM book.
9.difficult terrain is just -2 inches
10. Wound allocation has changed a bit.not super clear as to how.
11. D-weapons toned down but he was unclear as what that meant so from the sounds of it they will still be super ugly.

How do you see your army composition and tactics changing because of it?

Just how reliable are these? I see some of them as plausible but others, I dunno.

1. We are no longer the assault powerhouse that we once were. While this isn't bad, there are other armies out there that have scarier assault units than us. I'm talking about the assault deathstars.

2. I don't think this is the norm. Rather, it is probably one of the results on the Miscast table. In any case, this actually may benefit us. Why? Because of Shadows. We are making it harder for other psykers to cast their powers due to Shadows, thus increasing their chances of "failing" to cast a power.

3. Good and bad. It's a mixed bag. Scoring was never really an issue for us, but now, other armies which traditionally have weak scoring have become much better.

4. Sounds hokey....but yeah!

5. Ouch. Nerf to D? Yeah!

6. No change for us.

7. Ouch.

8. Does not apply.

9. Won't affect us too much.

10. Wound allocation won't bother us that much as we don't rely on wound allocation shenanigans.

11. Yeah! Bring back the Gargants!


It's too soon to develop tactics without the actual rules, but I still advocate a balanced army in favor of FOC armies.

I think if you want to work out what is likely out of there just look towards Fantasy.

Number 3 on that list for example there is a similar effect on the equivalent fantasy table for irresistible force. So I can imagine it will be a similar effect on the perils table. Something like the Psyker loses 1 mastery level and forgets the power.

Eldercaveman wrote:
^^that guy indeed!

Anyone else still finding after all this time our codex isn't getting the respect it deserves from our opponents.... Untill after the game?

I still get respect for my bugs, though that is probably more due to my skill than it actually is for the army. However, with the exception of Skyblight, I'm still finding it really tough for my bugs to go up against skyfire Tau and some of the other top tournament armies, especially when run by competent players.

bodazoka wrote:
Anyone got some tips v CSM? specifically the deamon prince? I am unsure of what the best unit's are for taking this guy out? it generally flies around the board rolling 5's and 6's for extra attacks and murdering all of my MC's with impunity!

My current Idea is going second (hopefully) and reserving everything squishy whilst flying around the board myself killing his troops and just dogging the Deamon?

Try to shoot him down with your flyrants or tie him up with a bunch of gribblies. In combat, if your MC survives, do a Smash attack on him. He's only T5 and can be insta-killed unless he gets Iron Arm. Stick your MC's in terrain because he will be at I1 if he has to charge through terrain. Then Smash him to death.

luke1705 wrote:

Eldercaveman wrote:
Does Shadow in the Warp effect stubborn units, I know this is a big of a YMDC question but this thread has become such an almgamation of different sub forums, one more can't hurt...

Interesting question. I'm not really sure where the debate is coming from. The rulebook states that stubborn units ignore any penalties to their leadership for the purposes of morale and pinning. That being said, it appears that the penalty still exists even for them when attempting to manifest psychic powers or taking leadership tests that are not specifically morale checks, as the rules clarify that morale checks are a specific subset of leadership checks, so if a model is stubborn, they don't care about morale but that doesn't mean that they don't care about their leadership.

So, in short, they are affected, but at certain points they are able to override the effects and just not care (resolving combat, pinning).

Even fearless models appear to be affected by Shadow in the Warp. It also makes sense thematically. It doesn't matter if you're afraid or a stone-faced Psyker. If your connection to the warp gets messed with by the Hive Mind, who knows what might happen? THE PERILS!

Agreed.

 foto69man wrote:
So.................new to the Hive mind and loving it. Used an Endless Swarm formation to great effect and fear tactics today ;-)

On another note, I like doing fun/interesting/unexpected things...Looking in IA4: The Anphelion Project I see the entries for Brood Nests, Spore Chimneys, and Capillary towers...but only points costs for the Brood Nests. IA Apocalypse Second Edition has a Spore Chimney Infestation Formation...and says 25 + Models...and refers back to the IA4 book. Can anyone close the loop for me and point me to the Book/Page number for the points costs?

I greatly appreciate it! And JY2, although you play with robots...I still like you for your Bugs.

Thanks!

Unfortunately, a lot of the older formations are out-of-date and possibly even obsolete. Sorry I don't have the news/info that you are looking for, but if you really can't find the info, just customize it, show your opponent any data you have on the formation and its relevent units, and then ask for permission from your opponent.

 DarkStarSabre wrote:
Ok, some feedback from the tournament last week....

Results 2 wins, 1 loss.

Spoiler:

The wins were against a Sisters list that failed to bring anti-air and the same Space Marine player from the previous week. Again, both were near enough tabled.

Now the loss...the loss was painful. It was against a White Scars Bikestar list complete with allied Space Wolves.

Things to note - the Bikestar is annoying. It is the bane of 'nids. Nothing like a 2+ EW FNP T5 chapter master to drive you up the wall. Add to the the rudeness of a bike mounted, 2+ save divination Rune Priest who just so happened to get the power that allowed him to reroll armour saves.....

Ugh. I just simply could not dent that. I couldn't risk Carnifexes going in due to Khan being there as well and even the Tyrants were hard pressed to impact it. I will also note that this was the only game that I did not get first turn or Seize and that he got some luck right off the bat with an Orbital Barrage writing off one Crone straight off the line. Seriously, the sodding thing just hit the crone. If it had scattered a few inches more the Crone would have lived and the Tyrant that was hit would not have cared.

Also, the Rune Staff with its ability to straight up block psychic powers on a 4+ regardless of what they actually are? Yeaaaah, not a good match up. I get the feeling that if he had NOT rolled that one psychic power up it would have gone differently as well - the fact he could simply negate the vast majority of my firepower through rerolling saves AND then getting FNP....

Well, that was rude.

Things I learned from that....

How long before Space Wolves get looked at and get those shenanigans taken away? Seriously, 80% of that was the damn Rune Priest on his own - rerolling saves and negating a large amount of Dominions, Catalysts and Onslaughts through a 4+ is what caused the problem.

Ouch. Unless you are running the Tyranid Airforce, White Scars (and especially White Scars with Space Wolf allies) is just a bad matchup for us.

The last time I played against biker marines (fortunately, he wasn't running White Scars, though he did run SW allies and the Biker Chapter Master), I just tied up his biker deathstar unit with 30 termagants with FNP from Catalyst and focused the rest of my army on killing the rest of his army.

Eldercaveman wrote:
One army I've yet to see much talk about is Iyanden Eldar? Has anyone had much experience against that, how do we fair against WraithGuard/Blades/Lords/Knights?

Eldar is another tough matchup for us, especially wave serpent-spam with wraithknights. Before, we could easily deal with high Toughness armies. Nowadays, Toxin Sacs are at a premium and just less frequently taken in a Tyranid TAC list. We can still win, but if they are meched up in wave serpents, we are going to be fighting an uphill battle.





Automatically Appended Next Post:

Eldercaveman wrote:
I think if you want to work out what is likely out of there just look towards Fantasy.

Number 3 on that list for example there is a similar effect on the equivalent fantasy table for irresistible force. So I can imagine it will be a similar effect on the perils table. Something like the Psyker loses 1 mastery level and forgets the power.

Yeah, that's what I am thinking. Our "Psychic phase" is going to be a lot like Fantasy's "Magic phase".

I personally have no problem with Eldar...I find that they don't have enough dakka to take down an MC based list.

 ductvader wrote:
I personally have no problem with Eldar...I find that they don't have enough dakka to take down an MC based list.

What type of Eldar builds you normally play against?

 jy2 wrote:

 ductvader wrote:
I personally have no problem with Eldar...I find that they don't have enough dakka to take down an MC based list.

What type of Eldar builds you normally play against?

Serpents with a little aspect flair.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Tau, Guard, and Tigger Centurions are my main contenders, even Necrons with their buckets of S7.

As someone who also plays Eldar...I know how hard it is for that army to manage a list with 60 some gants and 5+MCs



EDIT:And the hard facts hit the floor.

http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2014/05/bombshell-jervis-johnson-talks-40k-7th.html

Nice to get our formations written in as legal in all games, which makes turning up with Skyblight less risky and generally allows us to patch some of our units by popping a couple of extra rules on them (looking at you, Living Artillery Node, Endless Swarm and Deathleaper's Assassin Brood).

Come to think of it, with formations in in a big way, and the "logical" setup of most of them (heck, even odd ones like Broodlord Hunting Pack are pretty normal in terms of actual models taken if you were going to take Genestealers at all...) I foresee a trend of building the heart of a Battle Forged list around your mandatory HQ and Troops, bring whatever Nodes you want to buff whatever units you want beyond what you would get simply from taking them on their own, and then make up your points with a few extra regular Force Organisation choices (lone Zoanthropes, Mawlocs, Venomthropes, Winged Tyrants etc).

Where you going to take an Exocrine? Hey, take some complimentary Biovores and a nice unit of scoring Tyranid Warriors as well and we'll buff the whole lot with Organic Bombardment. Genestealers not quite lethal enough? Okay, throw in a Broodlord and a couple of extra minimal broods (ideal for scoring by the way) and we'll buff the whole lot with Preferred Enemy against something nearby and a nice enhanced version of Infiltrate.



Also, Terivgons with Objective Secured.

 jy2 wrote:

 DarkStarSabre wrote:
Ok, some feedback from the tournament last week....

Results 2 wins, 1 loss.

Spoiler:

The wins were against a Sisters list that failed to bring anti-air and the same Space Marine player from the previous week. Again, both were near enough tabled.

Now the loss...the loss was painful. It was against a White Scars Bikestar list complete with allied Space Wolves.

Things to note - the Bikestar is annoying. It is the bane of 'nids. Nothing like a 2+ EW FNP T5 chapter master to drive you up the wall. Add to the the rudeness of a bike mounted, 2+ save divination Rune Priest who just so happened to get the power that allowed him to reroll armour saves.....

Ugh. I just simply could not dent that. I couldn't risk Carnifexes going in due to Khan being there as well and even the Tyrants were hard pressed to impact it. I will also note that this was the only game that I did not get first turn or Seize and that he got some luck right off the bat with an Orbital Barrage writing off one Crone straight off the line. Seriously, the sodding thing just hit the crone. If it had scattered a few inches more the Crone would have lived and the Tyrant that was hit would not have cared.

Also, the Rune Staff with its ability to straight up block psychic powers on a 4+ regardless of what they actually are? Yeaaaah, not a good match up. I get the feeling that if he had NOT rolled that one psychic power up it would have gone differently as well - the fact he could simply negate the vast majority of my firepower through rerolling saves AND then getting FNP....

Well, that was rude.

Things I learned from that....

How long before Space Wolves get looked at and get those shenanigans taken away? Seriously, 80% of that was the damn Rune Priest on his own - rerolling saves and negating a large amount of Dominions, Catalysts and Onslaughts through a 4+ is what caused the problem.

Ouch. Unless you are running the Tyranid Airforce, White Scars (and especially White Scars with Space Wolf allies) is just a bad matchup for us.

The last time I played against biker marines (fortunately, he wasn't running White Scars, though he did run SW allies and the Biker Chapter Master), I just tied up his biker deathstar unit with 30 termagants with FNP from Catalyst and focused the rest of my army on killing the rest of his army.

Tragedy is that this was a Tyranid airforce - 3 Flyrants, 2 Crones. Couldn't get any psychic powers off at all due to the damn Space wolf rune priest and luck had him roll the power to give him a rerollable 2+. However, looking at 7th ed? DELICIOUS. Allowing all units to score is a boon, allowing our troops to get objective secured is insanely good. Tervigons might be a thing again and Warriors may be a bit more viable as well.

Actually, I found my Warriors to be quite staunch through the whole tournament. People didn't focus them and they held their objective every game....


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 PrinceRaven wrote:
Every unit being scoring is a buff to Nids, but it's a bigger buff to a lot of other armies. Do you really want to deal with scoring Riptides?

Do they really want to deal with scoring carnifexes, crones or mawlocs?

It's a ridiculous boon to us in the fact a lot of our more survivable stuff is non-scoring at the moment....suddenly it can score and claim objectives. Considering that our approach to a unit holding an objective tends to be utterly destroying it we should claim a healthy number more, no?

A big change that we may find if all of our bound units score, is that armies can't simply take out the synapse and watch our troops fall apart. Because we can score with the units that don't care apart synapse.

Eldercaveman wrote:
A big change that we may find if all of our bound units score, is that armies can't simply take out the synapse and watch our troops fall apart. Because we can score with the units that don't care apart synapse.

Word, I can see Genestealer infiltraters being a "thing". And solo MCs... I am living for hitting a Unit with a Mawloc, then counting as holding.

 ductvader wrote:
I don't understand your answers for 3 and 4.

Those should be huge benefits for us.

Every unit scoring is not good overall as other codexes benefit more .. All vehicles now score. Riptides, wraithknights, dreadknights now score, Paladin Knights score, Screamer star, jetseer star, beast pack score. Getting them off objectives is not fun.

Unbound not contesting is just a don't know at this stage. The throw the FOC out the window to create armies that win by tabling is not looking so good for us, they may not contest but if they kill our whole army in 2 turns do they care? Only if we lose the limits on units on the table at the start and no insta-lose at the end of turn one do the odds turn back - otherwise a Tau marketlight spam army that needs nothing else in their army wins first turn as an example.

To be fair to this whole unbound idea...it is written as a footnote beneath the extensive battleforged rules. Much like the (create your own terrain rules!, or disregard whatever rules you want for YOUR game footnotes in the book)

I am almost certain it will not see play in general tournaments.

Otherwise I guess Draigo and 29 Solodins are about to go nuts with Hammers and Holocaust. That's 31 Warp Charges in the "pool" too.

If the other part of the rumor is true, armies that follow the FOC gain "objective secured", so they can still move in and grab objectives from scoring deathstars without having to kill or engage them

omerakk wrote:
If the other part of the rumor is true, armies that follow the FOC gain "objective secured", so they can still move in and grab objectives from scoring deathstars without having to kill or engage them

Truth...so Skyblight would be able to doubly secure objectives?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I have another question...what have you noticed that your opponents don't realize about tyranids?

I recently beat my opponent because he didn't realize that I don't have to kill units to win. I often just have to survive.

I found troops were our weakest aspect so scoring everything is a great buff in my eyes

That being said, it's all really not hard for us to take absolutely anything we want +80 points of Gants, and still be in the FOC thanks to all our pages of DLC. I think most the time we should have no worries taking Battleforged bonus for almost anything you want to do. The main exception to this is if you want to add more Flyrants, which admittedly is not a light decision, other options for Synapse just aren't really cutting it as well as that one does....