The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (Eldar Tactica p.318 & 319)

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**PrinceRaven**

Or using them as Mawlocs.

**Kain**

PrinceRaven wrote:
Or using them as Mawlocs.

You know that action set with a hive fleet behemoth Trygon going against a blue Imperial knight?

Before that may have been a fight the Trygon had a chance of winning in, or at least let the Knight know it was in a fight. .

Now the Trygon would get helplessly slaughtered.

Meanwhile the Wraithknight and fisting Dreadknight lose pretty much nothing in terms of melee power since they already natively had S10.

God damn it.

**PrinceRaven**

Playing Tyranids: I hope you enjoy being screwed over.

**Spoletta**

FMC may have been screwed, but we got something in return it seems:

Move trhough Cover - not slowed by charging through difficult terrain; Tyranids REJOICE; auto pass dangerous

Also craters are no longer difficult terrain.

**PrinceRaven**

Hooray, now we can actually make it to the vehicle before slapping impotently at it.

**KurtAngle2**

Does Move Through Cover preserve your initiative now?

**PrinceRaven**

Nope, you just don't take the -2 to charge range.

**Kain**

Spoletta wrote:
FMC may have been screwed, but we got something in return it seems:

Move trhough Cover - not slowed by charging through difficult terrain; Tyranids REJOICE; auto pass dangerous

Also craters are no longer difficult terrain.

And this solves the problems of Carnifexes and Crushing claw Tervigons being the only TMCs worth a damn against vehicles in close combat how?

I'm hoping that in the next codex more units can have crushing claws.

Dawn of War 2 let Hive Tyrants take Crushing Claws, that seems reasonable enough.

**xttz**

I'm thinking Tervigons with Crushing Claws / Outflank may be a solid choice, by virtue of other MCs getting worse. We're going to struggle against multiple Land Raiders, Monoliths and often Russ variants. Haruspex may also get a look in now.

On the bright side, the FOC is basically a formality now. Providing you stick to the 1 HQ / 2 Troop you can take as many detachments as you like, so Elite slots are less of any issue now. Think I'll be taking a full 6 units of Zoans/Venoms/Hive Guard most of the time.

**Kain**

xttz wrote:
I'm thinking Tervigons with Crushing Claws / Outflank may be a solid choice, by virtue of other MCs getting worse. We're going to struggle against multiple Land Raiders, Monoliths and often Russ variants. Haruspex may also get a look in now.

On the bright side, the FOC is basically a formality now. Providing you stick to the 1 HQ / 2 Troop you can take as many detachments as you like, so Elite slots are less of any issue now. Think I'll be taking a full 6 units of Zoans/Venoms/Hive Guard most of the time.

Contemptor dreads, Maulerfiends, Ironclad dreadnoughts, and Knights are also going to be a problem.

Beware the Blood Angels Contemptor dread with blood claws. Or at least prepare your sphincter.

**Spoletta**

Should we get a second look at haywire Hguards?

**xttz**

I've done some math on point-per-glance / pen against AV13 / 14 in melee.

Fexes with Crushing Claws are about 2 - 2.5 times more effective than vanilla Fexes using Smash. Interestingly Tyrant Guard with CC are very close behind, although don't benefit from HoW. Haruspex are about halfway between CC and vanilla Fexes per point.
All units had adrenals for Fleet/Strength.

Of course all these options attack after most AV13 walkers which tend to be I4.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Spoletta wrote:
Should we get a second look at haywire Hguards?

Against AV13 and lower, Impaler Cannons are better thanks to better range, more shots, ignoring line of sight and Ignores Cover. They also have the fringe benefit of doubling out T4 multi-wound models like Nobz, Crisis Suits and Broadsides if no vehicle targets are around.

Shock Cannons really needed better range, better accuracy and/or more shots, they're pretty weak considering you pay 60pts each for them and have to practically be within assault range to fire.

**PrinceRaven**

Spoletta wrote:
Should we get a second look at haywire Hguards?

Not unless they got Homing, Ignores Cover and an extra 6" range while I wasn't looking.

**Wakshaani**

Here's a neat bit: Crushing Claws inately raise a Carnifex to Strength 10, which then carries over to the D3 Hammer of Wrath hits. Hammer of Wrath hits are auto-hits, not attacks, too.

So, a Carni with claws can open up tin cans like made.

For more interesting stuff, outside of melee, the Psychic Lance is the *only* Tyranid attack that can 'splode a vehicle. Since there's no AP 1 or 2 weapons, there's no way to get the +1 damage that will take hits above Immobilize.

So, plus side, tanks won't blow up and take out swaths of little bugs.

Down side is that we focus on hull point stripping to the exclusion of all else now.

**xttz**

Hammer of Wrath always uses unmodified strength in 6E. Unless that has changed in 7E you can't improve it with claws or adrenals.

**Kain**

Up to 3d3+3 (full wrecker node) S9 I10 autohits is more than enough to kill anything but the hardiest of superheavy vehicles anyway.

**Spoletta**

The solution to this is clearly OOE

**Kain**

Spoletta wrote:
The solution to this is clearly OOE

You only ever take old one eye in joke lists or when you have an appetite for punishment that borders on the masochistic.

**DarkStarSabre**

Kain wrote:
Spoletta wrote:
The solution to this is clearly OOE

You only ever take old one eye in joke lists or when you have an appetite for punishment that borders on the masochistic.

Well, considering that we've seen that there is no limit to Battleforged detachments....OOE might be viable as we do have some pretty cheap troops choices and to be perfectly fair it's not as though he'll be eating a Tyrant slot as we can always take ANOTHER detachment for more Tyrants.

**Spoletta**

On a side note, swarms seem to be scoring now, which makes rippers also super scoring.
Am i seeing a trend with all our heavy choices getting worse and our troop section getting better?

**xttz**

DarkStarSabre wrote:
OOE might be viable

You're funny, I like you.

I really can't see myself using OOE ever. For 55pts more than a Claw/Regen Fex you get: a near-useless Ld boost, a near useless tail upgrade (S4 AP4), an extra attack and that Beserk Rampage rule (which is OK. but not 55pts OK). On the other hand, OOE can't take Fleet (essential), Spine Banks to ensure attacking before powerfists, and can't add any ablative wounds or leapfrog like Fex broods can.

**Kain**

xttz wrote:
DarkStarSabre wrote:
OOE might be viable

You're funny, I like you.

I really can't see myself using OOE ever. For 55pts more than a Claw/Regen Fex you get: a near-useless Ld boost, a near useless tail upgrade (S4 AP4), an extra attack and that Beserk Rampage rule (which is OK. but not 55pts OK). On the other hand, OOE can't take Fleet (essential), Spine Banks to ensure attacking before powerfists, and can't add any ablative wounds or leapfrog like Fex broods can.

And a warlord trait you will never get to use unless OOE is literally your only HQ.

Which is essentially shooting yourself in the foot before the game begins.

**DarkStarSabre**

Key word - might. I will say the new force org opens up more options for us and things we'd have ignored in the past - OOE and Deathleaper might start seeing the light of day again as the fact they take up HQ slots isn't so much an issue now that was can take unlimited detachments.

Of course, this may not happen because LOL MORE TYRANTS.

Actually, LOL MORE TYRANTS is probably going to be what happens. I get the sneaky suspicion the Psychic Phase might turn 40k into a Psyker arms race - which nids are actually rather fortunate with due to the fact we can spit out so many psykers (a single Zoey is ML 2 - that's 2 more dice for us for cheap points).

And having seen the Perils chart...well, let's just say if you get a 6 on a Tyrant it's well worth not caring if you suffer a wound for it. Getting a 3+ invuln save and fleshbane is hilarious.

**Spoletta**

Flyrant have received so many nerfs with 7E that i'm considering primes even for non swarmy lists.

**Kain**

Spoletta wrote:
Flyrant have received so many nerfs with 7E that i'm considering primes even for non swarmy lists.

Flyrants got a buff if you were mostly just using them for Haywire Thorax swarms and BL devourer fire.

**PrinceRaven**

Flyrants are definitely still useful, just more as a psyker and gunboat than a combat threat.

**tetrisphreak**

PrinceRaven wrote:
Flyrants are definitely still useful, just more as a psyker and gunboat than a combat threat.

sneaky ninja flyrant creeps along, behind the bushes and shrubs.

Giving the enemy 1 turn to fire at full BS before mounting an assault is fair play. If they ground you before hand it means you'll charge 1 turn sooner. Whoops!

**N.I.B.**

tetrisphreak wrote:
PrinceRaven wrote:
Flyrants are definitely still useful, just more as a psyker and gunboat than a combat threat.
sneaky ninja flyrant creeps along, behind the bushes and shrubs.

Giving the enemy 1 turn to fire at full BS before mounting an assault is fair play. !

I assume you're ironic. Because it's not like your opponent wouldn't calmly move his units outside charge distance, nono.

**ductvader**

Is anyone else seeing the value of the zoanthrope in this edition? 2 warp charges and synapse on a creature that rarely uses its powers (unless onslaught/catalyst) early game anyways...and gets dominion for free

Actually, has it even been mentioned that all our psykers get dominion for free in addition to their powers? Boss.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Everyone's talking about how additional psykers just turn into batteries...but we have excellent batteries.

**tetrisphreak**

N.I.B. wrote:
tetrisphreak wrote:
PrinceRaven wrote:
Flyrants are definitely still useful, just more as a psyker and gunboat than a combat threat.
sneaky ninja flyrant creeps along, behind the bushes and shrubs.

Giving the enemy 1 turn to fire at full BS before mounting an assault is fair play. !

I assume you're ironic. Because it's not like your opponent wouldn't calmly move his units outside charge distance, nono.

I stop 1" away. You move and shoot. Then I move 12" as a jump mc and assault with 2d6" and fleet. Only eldar can get away from that reliably.

Also if you're running away from your objectives, for example, that helps too.