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Can a Zoay cast Warp Lance as well as Dominion in the same turn if you have the dice for it?

 SHUPPET wrote:
Can a Zoay cast Warp Lance as well as Dominion in the same turn if you have the dice for it?

Yes, but Zoeys are transformed in 7th. You aren't going to have enough dice to cast all of your spells, and generally Zoeys can't get range and LOS on too many vehicles. Flyrants are a better platform for Warp Lance.

tag8833 wrote:

 SHUPPET wrote:
Can a Zoay cast Warp Lance as well as Dominion in the same turn if you have the dice for it?

Yes, but Zoeys are transformed in 7th. You aren't going to have enough dice to cast all of your spells, and generally Zoeys can't get range and LOS on too many vehicles. Flyrants are a better platform for Warp Lance.

Yup I'm pretty anti Zoany myself, they really needed drop pods to be useful. However, if building a list to capitalise on Master of Ambush, could a squad of 3 hypothetically outflank provide Synapse to your Fexes or whatever, be in range for Warp Lance, and still cast Catalyst (or whatever)?

tag8833 wrote:
Flyrants are a better platform for Warp Lance.

And they're still bad.
Assuming no attempts to deny:
We'll use 5 dice to try and cast, giving a ~20% chance to perils and a ~80% chance to cast.
.8*.6(to hit)*.6(pen)*.3(desired result - immob is okay)=~8.6% chance for an okay result. Before they bother to deny.

 PrinceRaven wrote:

tag8833 wrote:

 PrinceRaven wrote:
Actually it'd be less than 67%, as you can possibly double up with each Hive Tyrant.

Your actual chance would be 55.56% I think.

I might have missed a rule. On my Mastery Level 2 Flyrant, I roll 2 dice for psychic powers. If both dice are the same, I reroll 1 of them. I can't get stuck with 2 copies of the same power on one model, can I?

Regardless, The chance of rolling Warp Blast on 1 dice is 1/6. On 4 dice it is 4 * 1/6 = 4/6 = 66.67%

What I'm saying is Tyrant A could possibly have 1 or even both powers the same as Tyrant B, so the actual chance is 2/6+(4/6*2/6) or 55.56% to get at least 1 Warp Blast.

Technically, because there is a chance to roll doubles that are not warp lance, the Tyrant has a slightly higher probability. 1/6 + 1/5 or 36.67% which makes it 73.33% chance that you roll it on one or the other.

I think what is screwing you up, is you are attempting to discount the chance that both flyrants roll Warp Lance which is 13.44%. That is what you are trying to represent in your 4/6. But that is not a failure condition.

While you generally don't get enough warp charge to reliably activate all your powers in one turn, I think in general you won't need to. Thanks to our lacklustre psychic table, most of the time you're gonna have at least a few powers that are unusable. On my last game I could afford to throw 3-4 warp charges at things like Catalyst on the first couple of turns, because Psychic Scream and Warp Blast were out of range.
Similarly, once everything is in range you probably won't need Onslaught or Psychic Scream (because it's terrible).

Also, how does the Brotherhood work with the new Psychoc phase? Do I only need to roll say 3 dice and stand a pretty good chance of manifesting Catalyst, 3 times over for the single success?

tag8833 wrote:

 PrinceRaven wrote:

What I'm saying is Tyrant A could possibly have 1 or even both powers the same as Tyrant B, so the actual chance is 2/6+(4/6*2/6) or 55.56% to get at least 1 Warp Blast.

Technically, because there is a chance to roll doubles that are not warp lance, the Tyrant has a slightly higher probability. 1/6 + 1/5 or 36.67% which makes it 73.33% chance that you roll it on one or the other.

I think what is screwing you up, is you are attempting to discount the chance that both flyrants roll Warp Lance which is 13.44%. That is what you are trying to represent in your 4/6. But that is not a failure condition.

 xttz wrote:
The odds of getting Warp Blast on a single Hive Tyrant (2 rolls) is 33.3%
1 - (0.833*0.8) = 0.3336

The odds of getting it on at least one Tyrant out of two is 55.5%
1 - (0.6664*0.6664) = 0.5559

tag8833 wrote:

 PrinceRaven wrote:

tag8833 wrote:

 PrinceRaven wrote:
Actually it'd be less than 67%, as you can possibly double up with each Hive Tyrant.

Your actual chance would be 55.56% I think.

I might have missed a rule. On my Mastery Level 2 Flyrant, I roll 2 dice for psychic powers. If both dice are the same, I reroll 1 of them. I can't get stuck with 2 copies of the same power on one model, can I?

Regardless, The chance of rolling Warp Blast on 1 dice is 1/6. On 4 dice it is 4 * 1/6 = 4/6 = 66.67%

What I'm saying is Tyrant A could possibly have 1 or even both powers the same as Tyrant B, so the actual chance is 2/6+(4/6*2/6) or 55.56% to get at least 1 Warp Blast.

Technically, because there is a chance to roll doubles that are not warp lance, the Tyrant has a slightly higher probability. 1/6 + 1/5 or 36.67% which makes it 73.33% chance that you roll it on one or the other.

I think what is screwing you up, is you are attempting to discount the chance that both flyrants roll Warp Lance which is 13.44%. That is what you are trying to represent in your 4/6. But that is not a failure condition.

Both Tyrants have a 33.33% of getting Warp Blast

The chance for Tyrant A to have Warp Blast while Tyrant B does not is 22.22% (33.33% of 66.66%)
The chance for Tyrant B to have Warp Blast while Tyrant A does not is also 22.22% (same)
The chance for Tyrants to have Warp Blast is 11.11% (33.33% of 33.33%)
= 55.56% of either Hive Tyrant having Warp Blast

I think what is screwing you up is you've included the chance of both Hive Tyrants having Warp Blast twice.
Also you're calculation method is incorrect, the actual chance is 1-(5/6*4/5) =33.33% for each Tyrant to get Warp Blast.
Following your method a Psyker that knows 5 psychic powers would have a 145% chance of knowing any 1 power of a discipline.

 SHUPPET wrote:
Also, how does the Brotherhood work with the new Psychoc phase? Do I only need to roll say 3 dice and stand a pretty good chance of manifesting Catalyst, 3 times over for the single success?

The Brotherhood only counts as a single psyker. It can cast a number of powers per turn equal to its mastery level, and can only use each specific power once per turn. Zoanthropes have a special rule to let them fire Warp Blast (if successful) a number of times equal to the models in the unit, but stick to all the other normal Brotherhood + psyker rules. If they didn't have that special rule, they'd only fire one Warp Blast shot regardless of how many Zoans you had.

This means they always have Warp Blast, Dominion (from psychic focus) and roll for one other power. They can use any two of these once per turn, regardless of the number of models in the unit.

rigeld2 wrote:

Eldercaveman wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

tag8833 wrote:

Deshkar wrote:
My main concern this edition to be honest, is that the fact you can no longer hide under multi-level ruins against indirect arty-___- wyverns and TFCs are really slowed now. though I guess Biovores got buffed.

I've heard this mentioned as a change, but I not finding it in the new rule book. The blast marker now hits models on all levels of terrain? Can you give me a section or page number to find this rule?

In 6th, barrage hit the top level of ruins because the rules said it did. In 7th, there is no such rule, so there's nothing preventing barrage from hitting all levels.

I thought this, but someone at my club mentioned that the book tells you to refer to stronghold assault? I've yet to find the reference myself though?

... for Barrages and Blasts? No. Get them to show you.
Don't ever trust someone that says "It's in there - trust me."

It wasn't during a game dint worry, and I've asked for the page ref. but no reply...

rigeld2 wrote:

tag8833 wrote:
Flyrants are a better platform for Warp Lance.

And they're still bad.
Assuming no attempts to deny:
We'll use 5 dice to try and cast, giving a ~20% chance to perils and a ~80% chance to cast.
.8*.6(to hit)*.6(pen)*.3(desired result - immob is okay)=~8.6% chance for an okay result. Before they bother to deny.

The desired result isn't immobilizing. The desired result is taking 1 HP away. The odds of that are 45.14% on 5 Dice or 38.19% on 4 Dice.

The optimum result is explodes which is 6.00% on 5 Dice, or 5.09% on 4 Dice.

It isn't great. It isn't even really that good. But it is a free shooting attack. All it costs you are warp dice, and you should have 4 to spare.

Also re: Perils (13.19% on 4 Dice, 19.62 on 5 Dice), make sure to cast Catalyst first, because FNP can now be taken against perils. So I'm generally going to cast Catalyst on 3 dice (87.5%), then Warp Lance on 4 Dice(13.19% of perils). The result is 8.79% chance of taking a wound, and 2.20% chance of gaining a 3+ Invul.

Wow they are worse than I thought. Thanks for heads up.


However at least 1 successful warp Lance is turned into 3 - that's pretty dice efficient, if not points efficient

If nothing else, extra Zoans are ablative wounds for the unit that help prevent making it an easy target for First Blood. I'll probably run them in units of 2 as a nice compromise between survivability and extra warp charge. 100pts for +2 warp charge and 3 powers isn't bad.
Any that roll Catalyst or Onslaught can just be held back, otherwise they can push forward and either Lance something or absorb fire with that 3++.

 PrinceRaven wrote:
I think what is screwing you up is you've included the chance of both Hive Tyrants having Warp Blast twice.

You are correct about that. I was double counting the odds of both Flyrants getting warp blast. With my calculation method that means 59.89%

 PrinceRaven wrote:
Also you're calculation method is incorrect, the actual chance is 1-(5/6*4/5) =33.33% for each Tyrant to get Warp Blast.

This doesn't feel right to me, but I'm not certain that it isn't. I feel like 1/6 is the odds of rolling it on 1 dice, and If you get rerolls on the 2nd in the case of doubles that means the 2nd dice has a 1/5 chance of rolling it, so you should add them together. 1/6 + 1/5 = 36.67%

You could take the reverse odds and subtract from 1. 1 - (5/6 + 4/5) = 36.67%. Why are you multiplying?

Because multiplying represents the chance of the first roll having failed, so the next roll isn't out of 100%, but out of 83.33%.
Also, 1-(5/6+4/5)=63.33%

In their Brotherhood rules it says a Zoan counts as a level 2 Psyker, so is a unit of 1 Zoan +2 dice to my pool?

 Mythra wrote:
In their Brotherhood rules it says a Zoan counts as a level 2 Psyker, so is a unit of 1 Zoan +2 dice to my pool?

25 points per mastery level, is how I like to think of them. I'm running 3 units of 1, as back field support, just throwin off dominion and any other buffs I roll.

Eldercaveman wrote:

 Mythra wrote:
In their Brotherhood rules it says a Zoan counts as a level 2 Psyker, so is a unit of 1 Zoan +2 dice to my pool?

25 points per mastery level, is how I like to think of them. I'm running 3 units of 1, as back field support, just throwin off dominion and any other buffs I roll.

OR for really good batteries for your flyrant.

How is everyone reading things on the broodlord? It is hard to tell he should be getting the Primaris power or not. So of course it is not covered in the FAQ.

 ductvader wrote:

Eldercaveman wrote:

 Mythra wrote:
In their Brotherhood rules it says a Zoan counts as a level 2 Psyker, so is a unit of 1 Zoan +2 dice to my pool?

25 points per mastery level, is how I like to think of them. I'm running 3 units of 1, as back field support, just throwin off dominion and any other buffs I roll.

OR for really good batteries for your flyrant.

Who is also a synapse support creature with Dominion, and another psychic spell. A significant change in the Tyranid meta from 6th to 7th is going to be Zoeys firmly taking over for Warriors as backfield support units. That, coupled with what is sure to be an increase in the number of S8+ weaponry makes warriors far less viable than 6th.

barnowl wrote:
How is everyone reading things on the broodlord? It is hard to tell he should be getting the Primaris power or not. So of course it is not covered in the FAQ.

I'm thinking Yes. "cause any non enumerated Psycher is ML 1. So Broodlord gets a Psy-power, so he is a Psycher, and only has one chart...but what good does it do? he can add 6" to zero? I guess that can be useful, to give Fearless to a Brood...? (Maybe to manipulate Go to Ground?)

pinecone77 wrote:

barnowl wrote:
How is everyone reading things on the broodlord? It is hard to tell he should be getting the Primaris power or not. So of course it is not covered in the FAQ.

I'm thinking Yes. "cause any non enumerated Psycher is ML 1. So Broodlord gets a Psy-power, so he is a Psycher, and only has one chart...but what good does it do? he can add 6" to zero? I guess that can be useful, to give Fearless to a Brood...? (Maybe to manipulate Go to Ground?

From the Rule book:

If a Psyker generates all of his powers from the same psychic discipline (even if he can only generate one power), that Psyker is said to have Psychic Focus, and gains that discipline’s primaris power in addition to his other powers.

and
in the section: "Generating Psychic Powers"

In some Army List Entries, a Psyker will have one or more specific psychic powers listed – where this is the case, it will be clearly stated. These Psykers always start the game with those psychic powers.

So he still gets "The Horror", but now he also gets Dominion. He can only cast 1 a turn. Dominion gives him a 6" Synapse bubble.

tag8833 wrote:
He can only cast 1 a turn.

This hasn't been proven. At all.

rigeld2 wrote:

tag8833 wrote:
He can only cast 1 a turn.

This hasn't been proven. At all.

Agreeded, that part to my read, looks like he could indeed use both to nasty effect and make broodlords effect advanced synapse.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

pinecone77 wrote:

barnowl wrote:
How is everyone reading things on the broodlord? It is hard to tell he should be getting the Primaris power or not. So of course it is not covered in the FAQ.

I'm thinking Yes. "cause any non enumerated Psycher is ML 1. So Broodlord gets a Psy-power, so he is a Psycher, and only has one chart...but what good does it do? he can add 6" to zero? I guess that can be useful, to give Fearless to a Brood...? (Maybe to manipulate Go to Ground?)

this can be very useful in fast moving lists that need advanced synapse units. Either outflank or infiltrate him and let the swarm catch up.

rigeld2 wrote:

tag8833 wrote:
He can only cast 1 a turn.

This hasn't been proven. At all.

In the BRB under "Mastery Level" it says:

The number of psychic powers a Psyker can use each turn depends on his Mastery Level.

Is your argument that the Broodlord is not ML:1, or that the ML:1 psychers can use more than one Psychic power a turn?

tag8833 wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

tag8833 wrote:
He can only cast 1 a turn.

This hasn't been proven. At all.

In the BRB under "Mastery Level" it says:

The number of psychic powers a Psyker can use each turn depends on his Mastery Level.

Is your argument that the Broodlord is not ML:1, or that the ML:1 psychers can use more than one Psychic power a turn?

Nah it's just some RAW argument that it's not clear, it's not clear that you can only cast one spell but it also is not clear you can cast more than your mastery. It just says your number of spells per turn "depend" on your mastery. Doesn't say which way it depends but HIWPI is number of spells per turn = mastery level.

tag8833 wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

tag8833 wrote:
He can only cast 1 a turn.

This hasn't been proven. At all.

In the BRB under "Mastery Level" it says:

The number of psychic powers a Psyker can use each turn depends on his Mastery Level.

Is your argument that the Broodlord is not ML:1, or that the ML:1 psychers can use more than one Psychic power a turn?

It's that there's no actual limit in that sentence.
If the number of powers you can use each turn is twice your mastery level, it depends on your mastery level.
If the number of powers you can use each turn is your mastery level squared, it depends on your mastery level.

There isn't enough information in that sentence to really know wtf they meant.

Yeah, I think the role for Zoeys has changed from "Heavy Support bought with Elite selections" to an honest Elites choice. Run them back behind a blob for some Onslaught or Catalyst shenanigans! Take 3 in independent squads for 6 extra Psychic points! While their old role is a bit BLAH now (2 successes per cast? BLEH!), I find them a bit more tactically interesting now. I can use them to lure out a few Deny rolls on my opponent before tipping my hand on what I REALLY plan to do (Warp Lance with a Tyrant, Catalyst with a Tyrant... Tyrant-stuff with a Tyrant). Psychic Phase is like a game of poker now... lots of bluffing and odds.

I still think that, for 100 pts. for 2, they are solid choices. We'll see how the lists change, though... we might see an upswing in Str8 weapons now that vehicles got buffed. More lists will have to rely on mass hull point popping.

Quick question for the experts...

Heirophant or Harridan and why?

I have the money saved up to buy one or the other. I like the look of both, leaning towards the harridan for the flying aspect/gargoyle transport. I run a flying Dakka Tyrant, putting together a crone, and thinking of trying skyblight over endless swarm. So it'd work out better synergy/looks-wise. And......not a lot of skyfire/interceptor in lists round these parts ;-)

Thoughts?