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 SHUPPET wrote:
I gotta disagree with this. The best place for Warriors is assault (against something that has no Powerfist). There is nothing better for them, they are an assault focused terminator unit who will tear it up.

However, getting him to assault is the issue, he's good while he's there but don't put all your cards on it, stick to cover + Venomthrope bubble, abuse 36" range of the cannon till then.

Let me clarify:

Due to the current inability to get Warriors into assault, their best role in the current edition seems to be in a ranged support/synapse bridge role. You can attempt to get them into assault range, and good luck to you on that; hypothetically they would do decently well if you kit them out for such. But I try not to dwell on the hypothetical but rather on the reality of the environment, and currently there is no efficient way for them to survive to get into assault with any reliability unless the board is CHOKED with terrain.

Specifically, I can either take them in an assault config and hope to make it, or take a BS or VC + deathspitters and kill some models from range. Or, put 'em in a bastion and let them play with heavy bolters. Either option is more tactically efficient IMHO.

 PrinceRaven wrote:

 jifel wrote:
Biovores don't have pinning unless you use the Living Artillery formation. So, use that, and give a Strangler to the warriors for maximum pinning, then hope for "the Horror" power.

Are Barrage weapons no longer Pinning in 7th?

 ductvader wrote:
Cost in dollars per points for an ugly model.

Anyone have a link to the Hive Guard Biovore conversion? That's worth looking at.

Here is a thread on The Tyranid Hive with a bunch of different conversions.

Here is a Hive Guard to Biovore conversion on Dakka Dakka.

The Dakka one is my conversion

 SHUPPET wrote:

The comparison to CSM Marine is a pretty good one in terms of power level imo, but it was just off the top of my head, and if you can contribute by finding a better one (as I'm no doubt sure there is some) feel free to do so.

Challenge accepted. I think the best comparison to Genesteelers is other units in our own codex (specifically HormaGaunts and Raveners). After all, they are vying for the same points in our lists. To make the comparison fair, I used 100 points of each model.

I started by measuring their killiness on the charge, and this is what I found.

Unit Models TEQ MEQ GEQ Genestealer 7.14 3.17 3.97 4.76 Hgaunt 20.00 1.67 3.33 5.00 _With TS 12.50 1.56 3.13 4.69 _With AG 14.29 1.79 3.57 5.36 _With Both 10.00 1.25 2.50 3.75 Ravener 3.33 0.93 1.85 2.78 _With RCs 2.86 2.12 2.65 3.17

I was surprised by the results, because Genestealers have never been terribly effective in my games. Even when I've gotten them safely in assault. But my main problem with them was always survivability. So I measured them against the same units in how many non-rapid fire bolter shots they could take before dying, and how many close combat attacks they could take from standard tactical marines before dying.

Unit Models Bolters CC Genestealer 7.14 32.14 42.86 Hgaunt 20.00 54.00 54.00 _With TS 12.50 33.75 33.75 _With AG 14.29 38.57 38.57 _With Both 10.00 27.00 27.00 Ravener 3.33 45.00 60.00 _With RCs 2.86 38.57 51.43

As you can see, they match upgraded Gaunts in bolter shots, and beat them in Close combat. Raveners and non-upgraded HGaunts came out the clear victor, but Raveners also have a chance to be ID'd by Strength 8.

Then I decided to see how Genestealers would stack up against other Close combat specialists in other books.

Unit Models TEQ MEQ GEQ Genesteeler 7.14 3.17 3.97 4.76 Kroot Hound 20.00 1.67 3.33 5.00 Clawed Fiend 2.50 0.69 1.39 2.08 Khymera 8.33 1.39 2.78 4.17 Razorwing Flock 6.67 3.89 4.44 5.00 Fenresian Wolve 10.00 1.25 2.50 3.75 Cyber Wolves 5.56 0.93 1.85 2.78 Beast of Nurgle 2.08 0.48 0.95 1.43 Fiends of Slan 2.86 0.48 0.95 1.43 Khorne-Dogs 6.25 1.88 2.75 3.63 Domonnettes 11.11 1.23 2.47 3.70

and

Unit Models Bolters CC Genesteeler 7.14 32.14 42.86 Kroot Hound 20.00 54.00 54.00 Clawed Fiend 2.50 54.00 72.00 Khymera 8.33 37.50 50.00 Razorwing Flock 6.67 90.00 120.00 Fenresian Wolve 10.00 36.00 48.00 Cyber Wolves 5.56 33.33 44.44 Beast of Nurgle 2.08 56.25 75.00 Fiends of Slan 2.86 30.86 41.14 Khorne-Dogs 6.25 45.00 60.00 Domonnettes 11.11 37.50 37.50

Razorwing Flocks are clearly the winner though they do have a tendency to be ID'd but I think the numbers bear out why we see Dark Eldar BeastStar winning so many games.


Overall, I think my negative experiences with Genestealers are probably more related to how I use them, and not having large enough units to field a viable strategy. That being said, they still have poor mobility next to pretty much every other unit on this list.

I will make it a personal goal to try to figure out how to use genesteelers as effectively as I've been using Hormagaunts. I doubt they will ever serve me well against Tau, but they might be worthwhile next time I see space marines.

tag8833 wrote:

 SHUPPET wrote:

The comparison to CSM Marine is a pretty good one in terms of power level imo, but it was just off the top of my head, and if you can contribute by finding a better one (as I'm no doubt sure there is some) feel free to do so.

Challenge accepted. I think the best comparison to Genesteelers is other units in our own codex (specifically HormaGaunts and Raveners). After all, they are vying for the same points in our lists. To make the comparison fair, I used 100 points of each model.

I started by measuring their killiness on the charge, and this is what I found.

Unit Models TEQ MEQ GEQ Genestealer 7.14 3.17 3.97 4.76 Hgaunt 20.00 1.67 3.33 5.00 _With TS 12.50 1.56 3.13 4.69 _With AG 14.29 1.79 3.57 5.36 _With Both 10.00 1.25 2.50 3.75 Ravener 3.33 0.93 1.85 2.78 _With RCs 2.86 2.12 2.65 3.17

I was surprised by the results, because Genestealers have never been terribly effective in my games. Even when I've gotten them safely in assault. But my main problem with them was always survivability. So I measured them against the same units in how many non-rapid fire bolter shots they could take before dying, and how many close combat attacks they could take from standard tactical marines before dying.

Unit Models Bolters CC Genestealer 7.14 32.14 42.86 Hgaunt 20.00 54.00 54.00 _With TS 12.50 33.75 33.75 _With AG 14.29 38.57 38.57 _With Both 10.00 27.00 27.00 Ravener 3.33 45.00 60.00 _With RCs 2.86 38.57 51.43

As you can see, they match upgraded Gaunts in bolter shots, and beat them in Close combat. Raveners and non-upgraded HGaunts came out the clear victor, but Raveners also have a chance to be ID'd by Strength 8.

Then I decided to see how Genestealers would stack up against other Close combat specialists in other books.

Unit Models TEQ MEQ GEQ Genesteeler 7.14 3.17 3.97 4.76 Kroot Hound 20.00 1.67 3.33 5.00 Clawed Fiend 2.50 0.69 1.39 2.08 Khymera 8.33 1.39 2.78 4.17 Razorwing Flock 6.67 3.89 4.44 5.00 Fenresian Wolve 10.00 1.25 2.50 3.75 Cyber Wolves 5.56 0.93 1.85 2.78 Beast of Nurgle 2.08 0.48 0.95 1.43 Fiends of Slan 2.86 0.48 0.95 1.43 Khorne-Dogs 6.25 1.88 2.75 3.63 Domonnettes 11.11 1.23 2.47 3.70

and

Unit Models Bolters CC Genesteeler 7.14 32.14 42.86 Kroot Hound 20.00 54.00 54.00 Clawed Fiend 2.50 54.00 72.00 Khymera 8.33 37.50 50.00 Razorwing Flock 6.67 90.00 120.00 Fenresian Wolve 10.00 36.00 48.00 Cyber Wolves 5.56 33.33 44.44 Beast of Nurgle 2.08 56.25 75.00 Fiends of Slan 2.86 30.86 41.14 Khorne-Dogs 6.25 45.00 60.00 Domonnettes 11.11 37.50 37.50

Razorwing Flocks are clearly the winner though they do have a tendency to be ID'd but I think the numbers bear out why we see Dark Eldar BeastStar winning so many games.


Overall, I think my negative experiences with Genestealers are probably more related to how I use them, and not having large enough units to field a viable strategy. That being said, they still have poor mobility next to pretty much every other unit on this list.

I will make it a personal goal to try to figure out how to use genesteelers as effectively as I've been using Hormagaunts. I doubt they will ever serve me well against Tau, but they might be worthwhile next time I see space marines.

My old 5th ed list had two x10, to x12 Broods of Stealers. But it is hard to see a good use for them now. Infiltrate, Go to Ground is all that comes to mind.

Thanks for the stats! And for the open mind and contributing in a very cool way. Big exalts!Not only does that confirm to me what I believed about stealers it also shows to me that it can be just fine as a dedicated assault unit (better than a lot of other armies, if a bit glass cannony), and as I've said alot of people think they are worse than they are because they are HARD to use right, it also takes a list focused to their goal to make it work.

They may lack on mobility, but An upside that the Stealers have that some other compared units don't however is I6, as well as infiltrate. Getting them to combat turn 2 should be assured.

tag8833 wrote:

 SHUPPET wrote:

The comparison to CSM Marine is a pretty good one in terms of power level imo, but it was just off the top of my head, and if you can contribute by finding a better one (as I'm no doubt sure there is some) feel free to do so.

Challenge accepted. I think the best comparison to Genesteelers is other units in our own codex (specifically HormaGaunts and Raveners). After all, they are vying for the same points in our lists. To make the comparison fair, I used 100 points of each model.

I started by measuring their killiness on the charge, and this is what I found.

Unit Models TEQ MEQ GEQ Genestealer 7.14 3.17 3.97 4.76 Hgaunt 20.00 1.67 3.33 5.00 _With TS 12.50 1.56 3.13 4.69 _With AG 14.29 1.79 3.57 5.36 _With Both 10.00 1.25 2.50 3.75 Ravener 3.33 0.93 1.85 2.78 _With RCs 2.86 2.12 2.65 3.17

I was surprised by the results, because Genestealers have never been terribly effective in my games. Even when I've gotten them safely in assault. But my main problem with them was always survivability. So I measured them against the same units in how many non-rapid fire bolter shots they could take before dying, and how many close combat attacks they could take from standard tactical marines before dying.

Unit Models Bolters CC Genestealer 7.14 32.14 42.86 Hgaunt 20.00 54.00 54.00 _With TS 12.50 33.75 33.75 _With AG 14.29 38.57 38.57 _With Both 10.00 27.00 27.00 Ravener 3.33 45.00 60.00 _With RCs 2.86 38.57 51.43

As you can see, they match upgraded Gaunts in bolter shots, and beat them in Close combat. Raveners and non-upgraded HGaunts came out the clear victor, but Raveners also have a chance to be ID'd by Strength 8.

I've had some luck with genestealers, and some failures, but my observations are consistent with your statistics.

The thing with genestealers, as you've pointed out, is that they can hit pretty hard, particularly against armoured infantry. The trouble is that their effectiveness drops off quickly due to the model count issue. Personally, I don't run upgraded Hormies anymore, so Genestealer units lose a lot of their effectiveness much more quickly than hormies. I suppose that's just their glass cannon nature.

The games I play aren't super competitive, but I've had good results running 2 genestealer units close to one another (this is largely a reflection of the models I own). They've actually done well getting to riptides in the past.

tag8833 wrote:

 SHUPPET wrote:

The comparison to CSM Marine is a pretty good one in terms of power level imo, but it was just off the top of my head, and if you can contribute by finding a better one (as I'm no doubt sure there is some) feel free to do so.

Challenge accepted. I think the best comparison to Genesteelers is other units in our own codex (specifically HormaGaunts and Raveners). After all, they are vying for the same points in our lists. To make the comparison fair, I used 100 points of each model.

I started by measuring their killiness on the charge, and this is what I found.

Unit Models TEQ MEQ GEQ Genestealer 7.14 3.17 3.97 4.76 Hgaunt 20.00 1.67 3.33 5.00 _With TS 12.50 1.56 3.13 4.69 _With AG 14.29 1.79 3.57 5.36 _With Both 10.00 1.25 2.50 3.75 Ravener 3.33 0.93 1.85 2.78 _With RCs 2.86 2.12 2.65 3.17

I was surprised by the results, because Genestealers have never been terribly effective in my games. Even when I've gotten them safely in assault. But my main problem with them was always survivability. So I measured them against the same units in how many non-rapid fire bolter shots they could take before dying, and how many close combat attacks they could take from standard tactical marines before dying.

Unit Models Bolters CC Genestealer 7.14 32.14 42.86 Hgaunt 20.00 54.00 54.00 _With TS 12.50 33.75 33.75 _With AG 14.29 38.57 38.57 _With Both 10.00 27.00 27.00 Ravener 3.33 45.00 60.00 _With RCs 2.86 38.57 51.43

As you can see, they match upgraded Gaunts in bolter shots, and beat them in Close combat. Raveners and non-upgraded HGaunts came out the clear victor, but Raveners also have a chance to be ID'd by Strength 8.

Then I decided to see how Genestealers would stack up against other Close combat specialists in other books.

Unit Models TEQ MEQ GEQ Genesteeler 7.14 3.17 3.97 4.76 Kroot Hound 20.00 1.67 3.33 5.00 Clawed Fiend 2.50 0.69 1.39 2.08 Khymera 8.33 1.39 2.78 4.17 Razorwing Flock 6.67 3.89 4.44 5.00 Fenresian Wolve 10.00 1.25 2.50 3.75 Cyber Wolves 5.56 0.93 1.85 2.78 Beast of Nurgle 2.08 0.48 0.95 1.43 Fiends of Slan 2.86 0.48 0.95 1.43 Khorne-Dogs 6.25 1.88 2.75 3.63 Domonnettes 11.11 1.23 2.47 3.70

and

Unit Models Bolters CC Genesteeler 7.14 32.14 42.86 Kroot Hound 20.00 54.00 54.00 Clawed Fiend 2.50 54.00 72.00 Khymera 8.33 37.50 50.00 Razorwing Flock 6.67 90.00 120.00 Fenresian Wolve 10.00 36.00 48.00 Cyber Wolves 5.56 33.33 44.44 Beast of Nurgle 2.08 56.25 75.00 Fiends of Slan 2.86 30.86 41.14 Khorne-Dogs 6.25 45.00 60.00 Domonnettes 11.11 37.50 37.50

Razorwing Flocks are clearly the winner though they do have a tendency to be ID'd but I think the numbers bear out why we see Dark Eldar BeastStar winning so many games.


Overall, I think my negative experiences with Genestealers are probably more related to how I use them, and not having large enough units to field a viable strategy. That being said, they still have poor mobility next to pretty much every other unit on this list.

I will make it a personal goal to try to figure out how to use genesteelers as effectively as I've been using Hormagaunts. I doubt they will ever serve me well against Tau, but they might be worthwhile next time I see space marines.

Man, it's weird that Genestealers get sh!t on so much and yet the numbers prove otherwise (for the most part). HOWEVER, I think that 100 points isn't necessarily a good measure of their best use. To be honest, and as a request, I'd like to see the same numbers but based off of a maxed size unit of Hormagaunts. So what is that? 180 points? Additionally, I'd like to see the effect that a Broodlord has on the unit of Genestealers. In terms of survivability. I understand that this isn't necessarily a calculation easily fleshed out due to compounding LoS! rolls.

Last point that I'd like to make is this: Looking at all the comparisons across all the books you included, how many of those (barring the beastpack) are ACTUALLY used competitively. None. Kroot are taken simply as troop tax and not for their offensive capability. You could argue that MAYBE Khorn-Dogs are, but that's not because data shown here, they're taken to add pressure early in their speed and scout move.

Just some food for thought. Tag8833 I'll see if I can figure the Broodlord stuff out today and post what I find. Clearly, positioning of the Broodlord has an incredible variation on how the survivability increases/decreases so I'm going to base my numbers off of 8 Genestealers and a Broodlord. I will also present survivability changes based on him being positioned in the front of the unit, directly in the middle, and finally in the rear (in relation to firing models).

Cheers!

That's the thing tho, 180 pts of Hormagants means you can also take 180 pts of Steelers. The numbers will rise by the same percentage, and any lead will just be multiplied.

Multiply both by 1.8 if you want those actual statistics.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Well, competitively it's generally just OP things that see play at the highest level, non OP stuff can't compete with the few things that are OP.

Most those units are well agreed upon as good assault units even if they aren't taken in riptide level of list building play.

Otherwise our entire coded "doesn't see competitive play". It doesn't matter at all

Good post, but i think there is an error. Why does it take 54 bolter shots to get the hormagaunts and the same number of emperor's finest manly punches? The 6+ save should make a difference.

SHUPPET wrote:That's the thing tho, 180 pts of Hormagants means you can also take 180 pts of Steelers. The numbers will rise by the same percentage, and any lead will just be multiplied.

Multiply both by 1.8 if you want those actual statistics.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Well, competitively it's generally just OP things that see play at the highest level, non OP stuff can't compete with the few things that are OP.

Most those units are well agreed upon as good assault units even if they aren't taken in riptide level of list building play.

Otherwise our entire coded "doesn't see competitive play". It doesn't matter at all

True, with 180 points of Genstealers the statistics can be extrapolated. However, what I'm much more interested in is how the addition of a Broodlord affects those results. Because you can't include a Broodlord sub 130 points, the statistics don't properly reflect the effect of a Broodlord.

BTW what software is that being used to calculate those statistics? I was using Mathhammer40k but in melee (against Teq) there isn't a way to reflect the 2+/5++ against rending attacks accurately.

Spoletta wrote:Good post, but i think there is an error. Why does it take 54 bolter shots to get the hormagaunts and the same number of emperor's finest manly punches? The 6+ save should make a difference.

Good catch you're right!



Automatically Appended Next Post:

Since 180 points nets 12.8 Genestealers I am going to base all of my following calculations (that include a Broodlord) on the fact that the Broodlord will be upgraded with Scything talons for 4 points to gain an extra attack.

So I am looking at a unit of 8 Genestealers and a Broodlord: based on your calculations above it takes roughly 4.5 bolter shots to kill a Genestealer (which I'm kinda confused as why...because a BS 4 marine should be killing a Genestealer with just barely over 3 shots [0.67*0.5 or each bolter shot does 0.3333 unsaved wounds]) from what I figure (and Mathhammer40k concurs) that a unit of 7 Genestealers would take 21 bolter shots to be wiped out. But anyways:

8 Genestealers are leading the Broodlord it would take 24 shots to kill them followed by 27 bolter shots (according to mathhammer40k) the Broodlord. This will likely ensure that your Broodlord makes it into combat. As a side effect, being a challenge monster (against all but the most beefy ICs) you will end up winning combat against most TAC units. This is over a 41% increase in resiliency for compared to the equivalent 12 Genestealers being wiped out with 36 bolters, not to mention the other bonuses that come with the Broodlord.
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.
.
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I was beginning to talk about formations your Genestealer unit can take (positioning 4 Genestealers out in front of the Broodlord and trailing the remainder behind and sticking the Broodlord out in front) however, after further thought, the only way to increase the resiliency of the unit is by keeping the Broodlord in the rear. Otherwise, you can't take advantage of the T5. Majority being T4 results in way too many wounds for the Broodlord to pass off AND save assuming the same number of bolter shots as in the previous example (51).

Lastly, in terms of difference of damage output, 12 Genestealers will statistically cause 6.6667 unsaved wounds to Meq, 10.6667 unsaved wounds to Geq, and 4 unsaved wounds to Teq. All of which are respectable. When compared to the 8 plus Broodlord: Meq-5.7778 unsaved, Geq-14.6667 unsaved, and Teq-3.444. Roughly 14% less efficiency against Meq and Teq, but 38% more efficient against Geq.

Conclusion? In terms of trade off, to gain 41% resiliency, the 8 + Broodlord loses very little in terms of offensive capability. Keep in mind that none of these calculations account for cover saves or FnP which should be easily achieved these days for Nid players.

I'm starting to doubt the math.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
That being said any mistakes are probably shared so the numbers are still probably accurate for comparing. Would like to know the process tho.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Genestealer Cult Tactica almost deserves it's own thread

 SHUPPET wrote:
I'm starting to doubt the math.

I took some shortcuts. I didn't apply the Terminator Invul against the rending attacks. Also GEQ should probably have been T3. I also didn't apply the Bolter AP value. I will run the math again and include these things if people are interested.

Mathhammering this can only get you so far. Cover is impossible to calculate in. The raw diversity of weapons is impossible to calculate in. Upgraded sergeants is impossible to calculate in.

I used Microsoft Excel to do the calculations.

Also, I see Beast of Nurgle, and Korne Dogs both being used pretty effectively. I've played against Deomonettes, and never been the most impress with them.

The problem with Genestealers is not how good they are in assault.

It's that they're so slow and fragile they won't actually get to assault anything in the first place.

 PrinceRaven wrote:
The problem with Genestealers is not how good they are in assault.

It's that they're so slow and fragile they won't actually get to assault anything in the first place.

They actually fare decently well if you take a medium sized brood with a lord and catalyst...but even then, they aren't dependable enough.

 PrinceRaven wrote:
The problem with Genestealers is not how good they are in assault.

It's that they're so slow and fragile they won't actually get to assault anything in the first place.

Yeah, like all rending platforms, it's about bringing a high volume of dice to the party. Genestealer units just have a nasty tendency to bleed their dice (i.e. bodies) on the way to assault. Their durability, speed and cost has been stuck in neutral even as shooting volume and lethality have increased dramatically in recent editions. Raveners and Shrikes have some fragility issues of their own, but at least they have the closing speed to bring a volume of dice to bear.

With a bonafide, durable transport (open-topped or with an assault ramp), Genestealers might be golden. But alas, it's not to be. I had the idea of using a bunker or bastion with an escape hatch as a way of getting a brood 18" (12" for the hatch, 6" for the disembark) up the table without taking fire. But they can't assault after leaving the hatch, so they'll still take a turn of fire in the face no matter what.

Psychic powers like Invisibility are in the game to help units just like Genestealers, but there's no way to get those on them either. Catalyst just isn't in the same category, especially when used on gribbly units.

 ductvader wrote:

 PrinceRaven wrote:
The problem with Genestealers is not how good they are in assault.

It's that they're so slow and fragile they won't actually get to assault anything in the first place.

They actually fare decently well if you take a medium sized brood with a lord and catalyst...but even then, they aren't dependable enough.

I think I generally agree with this. I've tended to use them in small broods, under 9. Based on my calculations, I think that running a brood of 15 or 20 would be much more effective for me. My thought was that I didn't want to invest so many points into such a fragile unit, but it also prevented me from realizing the usefulness of the genestealers.

Also, after my initial failures with Genestealers I started only running them in lists where I was trying to give a new / fluffy / bad player a chance. The goals of those lists was generally to nerf myself by using points really inefficiently, so I often took upgrades on the genestealers. Overall, I think upgraded genestealers are always worse on a point for point basis compared to base Genestealers.


With the loss of Focus fire, it might be a fun tactic to conga-line the bejesus out of a large unit of infiltrating genestealers. If you put the ones closest to the enemy in terrain, and trail the rest all the way back to your deployment lines to get shrouded from a venom, you can eat a lot more fire against many armies.

tag8833 wrote:

Also, after my initial failures with Genestealers I started only running them in lists where I was trying to give a new / fluffy / bad player a chance. The goals of those lists was generally to nerf myself by using points really inefficiently, so I often took upgrades on the genestealers. Overall, I think upgraded genestealers are always worse on a point for point basis compared to base Genestealers.

I have found this as well. For context, I tend to run my Genestealers in a Broodlord Hunting Pack of 14 + a Broodlord, and two broods of 5.

Adrenals have never worked out for me on Genestealers, largely because with S4 base and Toxin Sacks re-rolling on S=T S5 was largely superfluous (and in theory could cost you re-rolls, and by extension fewer actual Rends).

Toxin Sacks I did run, because the re-rolls were very useful against a lot of targets and upped the killing power significantly.

With 7th Edition, Toxin Sacks are nerfed and the re-rolls vs MEQ would require Adrenal Glands as well and that is just too expensive for me on a T4 6+ unit. As such, I have downgraded to basic Genestealers, adding more models to the main brood to fill out the points freed up from the Toxin Sacks (so my brood of 14 goes up to 17).

The one thing I do run just a few of are Scything Talons, hiding the Scything Genestealers behind the regular ones. The extra attacks do help, especially with the loss of the Toxin re-rolls. I haven't done the math to determine if they are worth it of course; largely it is just an afterthought because I spend 4 points on Scything Talons for the Broodlord so taking 4 more sets on regular Genestealers brings the points cost of the unit to a nice multiple of 10 (OCD much? ).

Couldn't find the answer for sure in YMDC and I didn't notice it in the last 15 pages or so here, but has anyone been playing the RAW in the new BRB about Swooping FMC being "hard to hit" and thusly allowed to be targeted by skyfire blast/template weapons?

Korias1004 wrote:
Couldn't find the answer for sure in YMDC and I didn't notice it in the last 15 pages or so here, but has anyone been playing the RAW in the new BRB about Swooping FMC being "hard to hit" and thusly allowed to be targeted by skyfire blast/template weapons?

Yeha it has come up in this thread and in a few other places. Our FMC are baledrake bait.

 PrinceRaven wrote:
The problem with Genestealers is not how good they are in assault.

It's that they're so slow and fragile they won't actually get to assault anything in the first place.

Word, it was when Overwatch, and don't charge from Outflank came along, that my Stealers got put aside. I don't own any Broodlords, but if you can Pin a unit, getting into contact becomes much more possible.

barnowl wrote:

Korias1004 wrote:
Couldn't find the answer for sure in YMDC and I didn't notice it in the last 15 pages or so here, but has anyone been playing the RAW in the new BRB about Swooping FMC being "hard to hit" and thusly allowed to be targeted by skyfire blast/template weapons?

Yeha it has come up in this thread and in a few other places. Our FMC are baledrake bait.

Not so much, they are only turret weapons now, so just get behind them.

Eldercaveman wrote:

barnowl wrote:

Korias1004 wrote:
Couldn't find the answer for sure in YMDC and I didn't notice it in the last 15 pages or so here, but has anyone been playing the RAW in the new BRB about Swooping FMC being "hard to hit" and thusly allowed to be targeted by skyfire blast/template weapons?

Yeha it has come up in this thread and in a few other places. Our FMC are baledrake bait.

Not so much, they are only turret weapons now, so just get behind them.

And of course the Crone and Harpy can now both shoot their Drool Cannons/Heavy Venom Cannons respectively at enemy FMC (until it gets FAQ'd to be the same as the Zooming Flyer rule of course).

Faced my first Knight yesterday. I ran my TAC list against it. Knight went down turn 1 after doing 0 wounds in shooting thanks to my venom and terrain. First blood was the Knight.
2 Crones (4 tentaclids) + 2 Flyrants = dead knight. I never thought I would have a chance to kill it in one turn. I thought in the 2nd or 3rd turn it would probably go down, but not until after it had wreaked some damage. I had the mobility to avoid the shield's facing, and got a little lucky glancing with 3 of my 4 tentaclids, but they are not the thing of knightmare that I expected.

I've got a game Tuesday facing salamander drop pod marines. 2500 points, and I am restricted to single combined arms without zoeys or any HQ's except for the Swarmlord. We will be playing eternal war.
This is the list I'm tentatively looking at:

I do have an open fast attack slot, and I could drop the lictors for some gargoyles (maybe flesh hooks for my warriors). Or I could drop a Dakkafex for a Crone. Or I could split my Raveners into 2 units.

He likes las cannons, so can ID many of my models, but I hope to have the firepower / speed to limit their shooting to 1 to 2 turns. Also I've been playing mind games with him, talking up the TFex, so I'm hoping he puts all of his AP:2 into the TFex, as it isn't a critical part of my army. I also implied I was bringing a sea of gaunts, so I'm hoping he chooses flamers over melta. I expect him to try and wall me in with Drop pods, and it might work. I will try to target whatever drop podded unit has the most S8, and break out on that flank, attempting to get my Raveners / Shrikes to his backfield and whatever heavy weapons he is hiding there. I hope to do many, many multi-assaults with my Carnifex squads, to get one on a drop pod, and the rest of the squad in with marines. I might pull the same trick with Raveners if I have the opportunity. Swarmy will be handing out furious charge to Shrikes / Raveners / Warriors wherever possible to give them a better chance at taking down a drop pod.

I also know that he isn't the most points efficient player. He told me he was bringing at least 8 drop pods. 8 is a funny number, and it means that each drop pod contains large squad of marines. That isn't his best bet against me, because I can kill marines pretty easy.

Things I'm still unsure of.
1) Lictors. They can kill drop pods and marines. They can infiltrate. They can also be ID'd.
2) Wargear on Warriors. RC's give them a chance to kill drop pods, but it may be that I have enough firepower to kill drop pods already.

tag8833 wrote:
Faced my first Knight yesterday. I ran my TAC list against it. Knight went down turn 1 after doing 0 wounds in shooting thanks to my venom and terrain. First blood was the Knight.
2 Crones (4 tentaclids) + 2 Flyrants = dead knight. I never thought I would have a chance to kill it in one turn. I thought in the 2nd or 3rd turn it would probably go down, but not until after it had wreaked some damage. I had the mobility to avoid the shield's facing, and got a little lucky glancing with 3 of my 4 tentaclids, but they are not the thing of knightmare that I expected.

I've got a game Tuesday facing salamander drop pod marines. 2500 points, and I am restricted to single combined arms without zoeys or any HQ's except for the Swarmlord. We will be playing eternal war.
This is the list I'm tentatively looking at:

Spoiler:

The Swarmlord
+ 3 Tyrant Guard

Venom
Venom
2 Lictors (This is the big question mark. They can kill marines and drop pods, but I've only got 2 of them, and am not entirely sure how to use them. Infiltrating them near devastators might be a good bet)

10 Spinegaunts
10 Spinegaunts
10 Spinegaunts
10 Spinegaunts
3 Warriors (BS, RCs)
3 Warriors (BS, RCs)

8 Raveners (RCs)
6 Shrikes (FHs, 2 BS, 4 RCs, 6 STs)

3 Carnifexes (2 TL-devourers)
2 Carnifexes (2 TL-devourers)
TFex (E. Grubs)

I do have an open fast attack slot, and I could drop the lictors for some gargoyles (maybe flesh hooks for my warriors). Or I could drop a Dakkafex for a Crone. Or I could split my Raveners into 2 units.

He likes las cannons, so can ID many of my models, but I hope to have the firepower / speed to limit their shooting to 1 to 2 turns. Also I've been playing mind games with him, talking up the TFex, so I'm hoping he puts all of his AP:2 into the TFex, as it isn't a critical part of my army. I also implied I was bringing a sea of gaunts, so I'm hoping he chooses flamers over melta. I expect him to try and wall me in with Drop pods, and it might work. I will try to target whatever drop podded unit has the most S8, and break out on that flank, attempting to get my Raveners / Shrikes to his backfield and whatever heavy weapons he is hiding there. I hope to do many, many multi-assaults with my Carnifex squads, to get one on a drop pod, and the rest of the squad in with marines. I might pull the same trick with Raveners if I have the opportunity. Swarmy will be handing out furious charge to Shrikes / Raveners / Warriors wherever possible to give them a better chance at taking down a drop pod.

I also know that he isn't the most points efficient player. He told me he was bringing at least 8 drop pods. 8 is a funny number, and it means that each drop pod contains large squad of marines. That isn't his best bet against me, because I can kill marines pretty easy.

Things I'm still unsure of.
1) Lictors. They can kill drop pods and marines. They can infiltrate. They can also be ID'd.
2) Wargear on Warriors. RC's give them a chance to kill drop pods, but it may be that I have enough firepower to kill drop pods already.

Who imposed that rule on you? It seems incredibly one-sided... That being said, I would go for a defensive approach and spring several Mawlocs, a Trygon or two, and multiple deep-strike capable units at him. Perhaps even a small unit of Genestealers to piggyback into an assault to quickly swing it into your favor. An anti-infantry flyer also would not be a bad call if he is going to be bringing large numbers of template weapons.

Well I'm not 100% sure if this is the perfect place to post, but I thought I might let the Nid community know that I was ALMOST utterly decimated by Skyblight without the Riptide Buffcommander combo. I still won because of a late game line breaker and dropping 3 malestrom cards turn 5, but after my experience, I would say that Nids are a fair amount more scary this edition. Nothing large, but the overall nerf of other stuff, and the psychic phase seemed to help my opponent. I do fear the bugs now!

 Unyielding Hunger wrote:
Who imposed that rule on you? It seems incredibly one-sided... That being said, I would go for a defensive approach and spring several Mawlocs, a Trygon or two, and multiple deep-strike capable units at him. Perhaps even a small unit of Genestealers to piggyback into an assault to quickly swing it into your favor. An anti-infantry flyer also would not be a bad call if he is going to be bringing large numbers of template weapons.

Restrictions are due to a campaign (10 people is more of a league than a campaign I guess). They hit me harder than most, but I'm still in 1st place in the campaign so far.

I'm not sure if you have ever used trygons in games, but they are not that good. They might take out a drop pod. 1 Trygon = about 50% chance of killing a drop pod if it shoots and then assaults it. But the key element is that Dakkafexes are great at messing up drop pods and marines. They can do 2-3 times as much damage as a trygon, and cost fewer points. In order to fit a trygon or mawloc in my list I have to drop dakkafexes or my Tfex, and it is hard to imagine either of those additions being an improvement. Genesteelers are a slightly more tempting suggestion. They are basically less mobile raveners that die in droves to flamers, and I'm playing mind games to get him to expect hoards, so there will hopefully be plenty of flamers. If I had convinced him I was bringing a flying circus, then I might have tried genesteelers.

He is a fan of quad guns. So a single Harpy / Crone isn't going to work real well.

Has anyone had any luck trying out the Deathleaper's Assassin formation?

I've always loved the lictor and deathleaper models; it would be nice if I could find a way to use them in game without them all dying instantly ><

 Unyielding Hunger wrote:
Who imposed that rule on you? It seems incredibly one-sided...

The next battle is going to be even wilder. I have to take Old One Eye and a Flying Hive tyrant against Commander Farsight in a 1500 point game. Farsight bomb is coming my way, and it will not be pretty for Old One Eye.

 Commander_Farsight wrote:
Well I'm not 100% sure if this is the perfect place to post, but I thought I might let the Nid community know that I was ALMOST utterly decimated by Skyblight without the Riptide Buffcommander combo. I still won because of a late game line breaker and dropping 3 malestrom cards turn 5, but after my experience, I would say that Nids are a fair amount more scary this edition. Nothing large, but the overall nerf of other stuff, and the psychic phase seemed to help my opponent. I do fear the bugs now!

Yeah I played a Maelstrom game with Skyblight and man it rocks! Sure, you have to land the flyers in order to score, but gargoyles are more than happy to zoom all over the place and/or deep strike in. Same goes for the Mawlocs. Mobility is king! Well, maybe Objective: Secured is king. Gargoyles are just great now.

omerakk wrote:
Has anyone had any luck trying out the Deathleaper's Assassin formation?

I've always loved the lictor and deathleaper models; it would be nice if I could find a way to use them in game without them all dying instantly ><

DLAB is great.You can impose a huge blanket of -1 Leadership on the board, which helps with Pinning, Fear tests etc. DLAB is also six individual broods, and so requires significant investment to put them all down if you deploy them fairly close to one another. Support them with Genestealers for best results (really overload whatever target area you are aiming for, and coupled with the -1 Leadership this is one of the rare occasions when The Horror on a Broodlord is actually fairly reliable). A couple of Mawlocs pair well with them as well (assuming you Infiltrate rather than Deep Strike as well. Between five Lictors, Deathleaper, some Genestealers and a couple of Mawlocs turning up on his doorstep your opponent should freak out a bit.

All of that together needs to be backed up by a strong hammer blow. Winged Tyrants and Crones are always good in this respect (and if you've taken Lictors, you shouldn't feel bad about bringing some of our harder stuff) as they pack a punch and have extreme mobility. In a larger game you might even be able to upgrade to full on Skyblight.

Alternatively, a wall of Carnifex/Venomthropes would probably work as well, because a lot of the incoming fire should be busy with those Lictors/Genestealers.