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Xyptc wrote:

omerakk wrote:
Has anyone had any luck trying out the Deathleaper's Assassin formation?

I've always loved the lictor and deathleaper models; it would be nice if I could find a way to use them in game without them all dying instantly ><

DLAB is great.You can impose a huge blanket of -1 Leadership on the board, which helps with Pinning, Fear tests etc. DLAB is also six individual broods, and so requires significant investment to put them all down if you deploy them fairly close to one another. Support them with Genestealers for best results (really overload whatever target area you are aiming for, and coupled with the -1 Leadership this is one of the rare occasions when The Horror on a Broodlord is actually fairly reliable). A couple of Mawlocs pair well with them as well (assuming you Infiltrate rather than Deep Strike as well. Between five Lictors, Deathleaper, some Genestealers and a couple of Mawlocs turning up on his doorstep your opponent should freak out a bit.

All of that together needs to be backed up by a strong hammer blow. Winged Tyrants and Crones are always good in this respect (and if you've taken Lictors, you shouldn't feel bad about bringing some of our harder stuff) as they pack a punch and have extreme mobility. In a larger game you might even be able to upgrade to full on Skyblight.

Alternatively, a wall of Carnifex/Venomthropes would probably work as well, because a lot of the incoming fire should be busy with those Lictors/Genestealers.

What he said, I've used them too and don't forget that Lictors aren't fearless. That means that when you start getting shot at, if you're able to keep them in ruins or behind walls you can go to ground for a 2+ cover save. Then on your turn, move a broodlord within 6" & cast dominion or a flyrant within 12", etc....get them in synapse. Once they become fearless they can move and assault as normal - it's really the best way to keep lictors alive.

Also the formation gives up first blood fairly easily with so many single-model units, however that is off set by the fact that you have so many different units to score objectives with and you can still charge 2 or 3 into 1 hard target for a good assault result when need be.

When the data slates first came out i fell in love with the Lictor Forest Brood, being a super-brood of 5 lictors. However, i think now that i've used both in games the Deathleaper Assassin Brood wins out for me overall.

If you have points for a comm's relay i recommend it if your plan is to bring in deep striking mawlocs and lictors - the re-roll is critical for overwhelming your opponent's lines.

You can't take two formations in almost all competitive settings so Skyblight + DLAB is a no unless its a friendly match.

I like the Pressure Bullet style of list. The issue with massed Lictors or Genestealers is the lack of anti tank that can come with it, and anti tank is more important than ever so your units can get to targets inside transport

I think mixing Lictor heavy lists with StealerShock is a bad idea imo. While initial impressions is that they are units that should work well together as they are designed with a similar playstyle in mind, I think this is actually only a surface level analysis. Genestealers need a lot of support and numbers to work. Ie Venomthrope, Screen, and Pinning support, + min 4 Broods . They really need pinning support to get their initiative, all this stuff is a big investment, this is wasted on Lictors who have flesh hooks + Stealth, as such all taking them does is just partially lower your body, wound, and damage saturation. Every squad of 3 Lictors taken in a StealerShock list could have been 11 Genestealers in a list that has the support they need. This is bad. And vice versa, the plus side of a Pressure Bullet Lictor list is that they don't need this investment, and a squad or two of Stealers in a here are for starters going to have no support and are also not going to have numbers and will be quickly chewed out as a couple of units of the most brittle glass cannons in the game.

Lictors will thrive using their small squad size to deploy and claim cover and even avoid LOS in terrain all across the board, and most definitely GtG. Use a Flyrant to get em back up. Taking a Mawloc or two who can Deepstrike into combat and not scatter, will assure you win every combat that lasts over a turn. No reason not to take if you are Lictor heavy, great model in general. Crones are probably the desired anti-tank because they're the cheapest and you don't need a screen, they are your only shot at popping a key transport before Mawlocs come down, and in the later turns your enti're army (Lictors Flyrants and Mawlocs) will be threatening rear armor with S6-7, which sort of Mitigates the fact that your anti-tank drops off. I don't see a reason to take anything other than more Lictors once you have your AT support, the more the better, any extra points you want for the bullet after taking 9 Lictors + DLAB can go to a large unit of Shrikes (or Ravs)


Genestealers are a bit different as they are much cheaper but die much easier, with no built in Stealth or Flesh Hooks. As such you need numbers, cover, and pinning. I personally feel like Living Artillery is a must for StealerShock, you want to be getting your I6.
Using a screen + Venomthropes can give your massed Stealers easy 2+ cover all the way into combat.
I've settled on eGrubs Tyrannofexs over Carnis for AT here as they hopefully kill a tank/transport BEFORE assault for your Stealers, double as a cool ass T6 W6 +2 screen, and in this army never have to worry about their biggest worry - being tarpitted all game by a couple of points of crap. They also get bonus points for Knight protection, and the fact that they are so much tougher than Carnis is relevant when they are practically the only MC in your army. They lo've being shot at.


Hope this essay helps someone =)



Automatically Appended Next Post:
DLAB + max Broodlords could probably work as well. You wouldn't want to take anymore Lictors though as those ones only make the cut for their role in pinning. This is one I haven't actually tried and definitely will have to. I think this would have to be played super aggressive infiltrating as close as possible and relying on Pinning to force snapshots to get the most out of this. Seems cool, will definitely be the hardest of the three to play - but definitely sounds like fun.

So yesterday I did a thing...



10k pts of Nids against 7k IG armour and 3k of smurfs. This was a bit of an experiment for our club, as no one had tried to organise such a large-scale game before. Needless to say, we didn't come close to finishing the game, only playing two full turns in about 6 hours, including the time to setup.

It wasn't a very competitive game, my army list was literally just all the Nids I had that were painted to some degree. I would have preferred to drop 2-3k of trash units and reduce my opponent's huge tank line by the same amount. By the end of turn 2 I was losing pretty badly, having failed almost all of my charges and my opponent doing unusually well with cover saves against my limited high-strength shooting. The one upside is that I managed to kill Calgar during his finest hour while he had T10 and 2++

I made note of a few things for the future....

The one nerf from 7E whose impact most surprised me was the change to GC charging. Now you must charge a unit you targeted with a shooting attack, and with S10 firepower this often results in a lot of overkill. My Hierophants could either shoot my opponent's bubble-wrapped superheavies OR charge something that would probably die to just their firepower. I'm tempted to take the Hellstorm weapon option on them in future just to open up a much wider range of targets to charge.

Some Tyranid formations are utterly fantastic now that D-weapons are toned down. Living Fortress is a great HQ unit that can take a ton of punishment, and is probably the best way to field a Swarmlord (or Norn Crown) thanks to the PE bubble it has. Carnifex Crusher Broods can use an S10 AP2 Hellstorm attack, and make a great choice to use an All Out Attack and then Disordered Charge with. Who cares about losing bonus attacks when you're dropping 6D3 HoW hits.

Apoc under 7E really magnifies the problems Nids face against heavy armour at range. A Russ parking lot is pretty much the worst thing you can face now, and my opponent had at least 20 of them. We badly need either better ranged anti-armour, decent deep strike options or assault-from-reserve options for Nids

The Hierodules weren't quite as bad as I expected. The Barbed one wrecked quite a few Russes, and both of them absorbed a fair amount of firepower with FNP and Shrouded. They're still hideously overcosted, but they make a good distraction if there are no opposing D-weapons on the field.

Guants, Gargoyles and Warriors were basically a huge, pointless time-sink in this game. I couldn't physically fit them all in my deployment zone and had to leave many in reserve. They didn't achieve much either, killing a handful of marines in melee in an attempt to contest an objective and not get shot at.

I really need a Harridan. Or three.

Here's the full photo album

Nice battle. With Apocalypse coming to the front again, I want to ask a few questions. I have begun to dig through my most recent purchase and get things reconverted to their proper items, and now comes some good ol' honest speculation. As it stands, I am now the proud owner of 27 shrikes, with 3 full uniform broods of 6 stock/3 rending claw melee shrikes. So, my question is if this will be sufficient to do decent damage deepstruck behind enemy lines? Also, on a subject for boosting the sturdiness of some of my Tyranid Primes, how does it sound to have a couple abandoned Tyrant Guards get some new friends for some toughness 6 goodies for some fairly durable synapse, with some extra boneswords on the Prime for some reasonable lethality at 190pts per unit?

I need guidance, fellow hive-minders.

I have an exocrine that is painted and glued together - he will forever be an exocrine.

I have another that is magnetized to swap between an exocrine and a haruspex. However it's a very fiddly connection and the heads tend to fall off.

The haruspex model looks really cool, but I cannot justify fielding it over another exocrine. Should I leave it alone or go ahead and glue it as a 2nd exocrine???

I recommend re-magnetising with some better magnets.

I used 6mm disc magnets for my Exocrine / Haruspex. The Haruspex head holds perfectly well like this, while the Exocrine gun also has a pin made from a paperclip, with corresponding hole in the body to stop it from drooping forward.

Ok - a pin eh? That might just be the ticket. Thanks guys.

Yeah... a good magnet + a pin to reinforce (especially on heads and guns, which tend to droop a bit) seems the way to go.

 xttz wrote:
I used 6mm disc magnets for my Exocrine / Haruspex. The Haruspex head holds perfectly well like this, while the Exocrine gun also has a pin made from a paperclip, with corresponding hole in the body to stop it from drooping forward.

If I'm pinning alongside of a magnet I usually use a brass rod as a pin over a paper clip. Paperclips are less rigid, and I find that sometimes when I'm swapping pieces I will bend the paperclip away from the hole.

 mekugi wrote:
I have a question about how Zoanthropes broods work in 7th ed...If I have 3 thropes in a brood, how many extra psychic powers can I roll up for them?
My mate and I decided that they are a brotherhood with a psyker level of 2 as per codex and rolled up one extra power. It seems fair to me, but I'd just like to check in and see if we played it wrong.

You roll for one, then you get Dominion for "free", so it sounds like you got it right.

 tetrisphreak wrote:
Ok - a pin eh? That might just be the ticket. Thanks guys.

Or just a really good magnets. I can carry mine around the gun barrel. but then I did go for a good strong hold knownig it would be a weak spot.

I used 1 magnet for the arms, 2 for the heads. No pinning required.

Right, I have a mini tournament coming up in a few weeks at a local GW.

The rules are
- 500 points max
- Battle-forged
- Games will be played on a 24"x48" board with a single objective in the middle

It's 16 players, knockout system, and given the small table sizes I imagine it will be fast and brutal.

I'm looking for ideas on what to run from my Hive Fleet, and I'm coming up with all sorts of crazy ideas (ever one to try something a little unconventional).

At first I considered FMC spam, but on such a small table I really worry that Swooping will be a liability because of the limited turning arc. It is also likely that the incoming fire won't be that bad.

The way I see it, there are two major things I need to plan for. First, the scramble for the objective in the middle; I either need something incredibly tough to sit on it, or to deal so much damage that my opponent cannot contest it. Second, I need to watch out for really nasty, hard hitting units (my local meta is currently loving Grav spam), and should ideally have something fairly lethal to wipe them out safely.

Venomthropes and Termagants sound like good ideas for moving up on the objective. Tunneling Rippers also sound tempting. I can fiddle around with that, and would even consider an HQ Tervigon or Tyrannofex (or both) to push for the objective.

The "lethal" part is where I am throwing all sorts of darts at the board though, because in such a small game I think I have a chance to unleash a few things that maybe don't work so well in large games.

Deathleaper is a resilient, nasty HQ that can guide in a Mawloc for that killer-strike I'm looking for.

A Devourer/Winged Tyrant is always a solid choice, but as I mention above I worry about it not fulfilling its role as a gunboat as well as it could because it will probably have to spend a few turns gliding.

This brings me to a really nasty melee Tyrant with the Reaper and Wings, which has the speed to cross the board and can enjoy both a Bonesword with Shred and also S8 on the charge thanks to the Reaper and Adrenals. That's very tempting, but expensive.

I cannot run Living Artillery, but an Exocrine is also lethal and on a small board its limited range is not such an issue.

So much to choose from! Any ideas/suggestions from people who have played such tiny games before?

Xyptc wrote:
Right, I have a mini tournament coming up in a few weeks at a local GW.

The rules are
- 500 points max
- Battle-forged
- Games will be played on a 24"x48" board with a single objective in the middle

It's 16 players, knockout system, and given the small table sizes I imagine it will be fast and brutal.

I'm looking for ideas on what to run from my Hive Fleet, and I'm coming up with all sorts of crazy ideas (ever one to try something a little unconventional).

At first I considered FMC spam, but on such a small table I really worry that Swooping will be a liability because of the limited turning arc. It is also likely that the incoming fire won't be that bad.

The way I see it, there are two major things I need to plan for. First, the scramble for the objective in the middle; I either need something incredibly tough to sit on it, or to deal so much damage that my opponent cannot contest it. Second, I need to watch out for really nasty, hard hitting units (my local meta is currently loving Grav spam), and should ideally have something fairly lethal to wipe them out safely.

Venomthropes and Termagants sound like good ideas for moving up on the objective. Tunneling Rippers also sound tempting. I can fiddle around with that, and would even consider an HQ Tervigon or Tyrannofex (or both) to push for the objective.

The "lethal" part is where I am throwing all sorts of darts at the board though, because in such a small game I think I have a chance to unleash a few things that maybe don't work so well in large games.

Deathleaper is a resilient, nasty HQ that can guide in a Mawloc for that killer-strike I'm looking for.

A Devourer/Winged Tyrant is always a solid choice, but as I mention above I worry about it not fulfilling its role as a gunboat as well as it could because it will probably have to spend a few turns gliding.

This brings me to a really nasty melee Tyrant with the Reaper and Wings, which has the speed to cross the board and can enjoy both a Bonesword with Shred and also S8 on the charge thanks to the Reaper and Adrenals. That's very tempting, but expensive.

I cannot run Living Artillery, but an Exocrine is also lethal and on a small board its limited range is not such an issue.

So much to choose from! Any ideas/suggestions from people who have played such tiny games before?

Quite frankly I would recommend taking the Flyrant. Give him Electroshock grubs and he becomes a huge problem for your enemy. Another thing that is amazing in small games are Tervigons. The amount of gants they can produce will quickly tip the scales in your favor. If I were to build a 500 point list, it would consist of:

Flyrant, one devourer, ElectroGrubs
Tervigon
10 gants
3 Rippers

Unless taking Mawloc + DL, you probably want to consider a Venomthrope. That's usually obvious for Tyranid, but at 500 pts on a small board, EVERYTHING will be focus fired, and every shot counts, shrugging off 2/6 Lascannon wounds off EVERY MC is going to be much bigger here. Put throse MCs behind cover or a screen themselves as well and they will be massive. In a small map and army their bubble covers more ground in a sense, your army will most likely all be in it. Venom will be focused though so you need to be really careful with him! He's harder to kill at 500 pts but harder to hide. He won't last all game but with careful positioning, will definitely make back his points by costing your opponent some critical firepower regardless.

I was going to say that a Regen Tfex will never die at 500 with a Venomthrope, but then I saw Grav Spam is big for you, so I don't know.

I think you should definitely consider Exocrine, he will melt Marines and Centurions, as well as hitting flyers hard. I've also got to suggest Biovores as their firepower is immense and they aren't even that bad in CC at this level.

Mawlocs will be a gods of destruction here, wrecking havoc with blasts, throwing around 6 wounds and tearing it up in CC. Problem is they can't hit Centurions in ruins, so if you think the tables will be set up with ruins you can't afford to waste 140 pts on them here if the critical infantry unit (and against us it's often something with good range) can just hide out in the ruins safely all game.

Keep in mind that the lower the points go the better a Tervigon is. Even as your HQ at 500 (+30 terms doesn't leave many points to work with). Also, that 35 pts CAN be dropped from a Flyrant on a small board if points are tight.

At the end of the day, I'd probably just take 2 squads of Terms and a Flyrant with Shreddershards for numpties in the ruin, and then your choice between an Exocrine, Tyrannofex, or Biovores+VenomThorpe. But that's me and there is so much you can do, Keep in mind Flyrant will tear it up in CC regardless

Xyptc wrote:
Right, I have a mini tournament coming up in a few weeks at a local GW.

The rules are
- 500 points max
- Battle-forged
- Games will be played on a 24"x48" board with a single objective in the middle

It's 16 players, knockout system, and given the small table sizes I imagine it will be fast and brutal.

I'm looking for ideas on what to run from my Hive Fleet, and I'm coming up with all sorts of crazy ideas (ever one to try something a little unconventional).

At first I considered FMC spam, but on such a small table I really worry that Swooping will be a liability because of the limited turning arc. It is also likely that the incoming fire won't be that bad.

The way I see it, there are two major things I need to plan for. First, the scramble for the objective in the middle; I either need something incredibly tough to sit on it, or to deal so much damage that my opponent cannot contest it. Second, I need to watch out for really nasty, hard hitting units (my local meta is currently loving Grav spam), and should ideally have something fairly lethal to wipe them out safely.

Venomthropes and Termagants sound like good ideas for moving up on the objective. Tunneling Rippers also sound tempting. I can fiddle around with that, and would even consider an HQ Tervigon or Tyrannofex (or both) to push for the objective.

The "lethal" part is where I am throwing all sorts of darts at the board though, because in such a small game I think I have a chance to unleash a few things that maybe don't work so well in large games.

Deathleaper is a resilient, nasty HQ that can guide in a Mawloc for that killer-strike I'm looking for.

A Devourer/Winged Tyrant is always a solid choice, but as I mention above I worry about it not fulfilling its role as a gunboat as well as it could because it will probably have to spend a few turns gliding.

This brings me to a really nasty melee Tyrant with the Reaper and Wings, which has the speed to cross the board and can enjoy both a Bonesword with Shred and also S8 on the charge thanks to the Reaper and Adrenals. That's very tempting, but expensive.

I cannot run Living Artillery, but an Exocrine is also lethal and on a small board its limited range is not such an issue.

So much to choose from! Any ideas/suggestions from people who have played such tiny games before?

I think you're on the right track, of picking one stomper, then filling in with gribblies. I'd likely take a Tyranofex,Adrenal, Thorax Hive, and use it to bum rush his troops right off the map. Toss in a couple of Termigant Broods, an HQ, and you're pretty close to maxed out ...

Deathleaper, and his pet Mawlocs sounds like a fun build as well. just run a Warrior Brood, or two for any Synapse needs.

Xyptc wrote:
- Games will be played on a 24"x48" board with a single objective in the middle.

That is a crazy small board. Are you running Dawn of War or Hammer and Anvil?

Xyptc wrote:
So much to choose from! Any ideas/suggestions from people who have played such tiny games before?

I think based on your meta people are going to be unprepared for hoards, so I would run something like this:
Tyranid Prime (No Upgrades)

Zoey

15 HGaunts
15 TGaunts (10 Spinefist, 5 Devourers)
15 TGaunts (10 Spinefist, 5 Devourers)

15 Gargoyles

The gargoyles are fast enough to reach out and grab the objective. Surround it with bodies. Deal with any target you can hurt, and try to tarpit tougher things like MC's or beatstick HQ's. You could swap the Zoey for a venom, but that gives you only 1 Synapse source, and the odds of you making enough saves to pay for the venom are low.

The other way to go is Tervigon as HQ.
Tervigon (e. Grubs)

Venom

13 TGaunts
12 TGaunts

Carnifex (2 TL-Devourers)

You might generate a bunch of extra gaunts.

My last suggestion is the most unorthodox. Shrikes are great so long as Strength 8+ isn't common. They can theoretically deal with nearly everything except armor 14.
Death Leaper

10 TGaunts
10 TGaunts

4 Shrikes (FHs, RCs, STs) -> Vehicle Killer, TEQ killer
3 Shrikes (FHs, 2 RCs, 1 BS + LW, STs) -> MEQ killer
There aren't going to be many things that can beat those Shrikes in Close combat (especially at 500 points). One of the biggest challenges will be overwhelming units. To avoid this consider multi-assaults. Assault one Shrike into a squad of Tac Marines, and the other 2-3 into a Rhino. If your opponent gets to the objective first, good for him, your Shrikes can take it back turn 2. All of the Shrikes are synapse, and so you won't have problems there. Your biggest fear is wraith knights / lords and power fists / claws. Hope that the grav spam marines take out the Eldar for you.

I really think Tyranids are going to have a rough time in such a small game. We don't have cheap HQ options, and a Dakka Flyrant won't work well on that board. A CC Flyrant might work, but it is so many points.

Dakka Tyrants are fine, drop the wings if you think you don't need em but jink even in jump mode is great. I swear people think FMCs have 1 flight mode.

CC Tyrant is an even worse idea, as a Flyrant can already throw down so much hurt in CC, his upgrades are overpriced and don't add much, and he sacrifices being one of your best shooters AND CC machines, to have no shooting and a slightly nicer CC. Totally not worth. You want to use him in CC, shoot 12 times and jump right in. They are assault weapons. Throwing that BS4 plus immense TL firepower coupled with his amazing mobility, is a great way to kneecap yourself before the game even begins, and his points reflect that.

Also, people are assuming eGrubs is the answer in 500 pts because it is necessary in larger games, is a habit of conditioning and just playing what they've been told is good, it's not 1850 pts, there will be very little AV that can't be broken with Tl-devs and anyone taking as Land Raider is going to be much lighter on firepower as a result (and will have q pretty gimmicky list), you can feel free to ignore it or smash it down turn 3 or so. sBeetles will be much more important with Ignores Cover autowounds for Centurions in the ruin and the like.

 SHUPPET wrote:
Dakka Tyrants are fine, drop the wings if you think you don't need em but jink even in jump mode is great. I swear people think FMCs have 1 flight mode.

A valid point. I considered several Flyrant + Venom lists for a 2+ jink on a Gliding FMC. None of the lists I was fiddling with were better than the ones I posted.

 SHUPPET wrote:
Also, people are assuming eGrubs is the answer in 500 pts because it is necessary in larger games, is a habit of conditioning and just playing what they've been told is good, it's not 1850 pts, there will be very little AV that can't be broken with Tl-devs and anyone taking as Land Raider is going to be much lighter on firepower as a result (and will have q pretty gimmicky list), you can feel free to ignore it or smash it down turn 3 or so. sBeetles will be much more important with Ignores Cover autowounds for Centurions in the ruin and the like.

E. Grubs are good. And I think they are more critical in 500 point lists. Imagine a dreadnaught in a drop pod. How are you going to deal with either one? E. Grubs are your best answer to both. Even better than TL-Devourers vs Drop pods. E. Grubs aren't as good against Centurions as S. Beetles, but they can still force a few saves, and against a majority of targets they are nearly as good. I used to take S. Beetles against Tau a lot. These days I take E. Grubs. They are marginally less effective against good armor, but not much. I make this argument based on game experience, but I'll run the math and post that as well.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Here is the Percentage to cause an unsaved wound for each thorax weapon against a variety of targets.
Target E. Grubs S. Beetles D. Larva Centurion 8% 31% 14% Space Marine 22% 31% 28% Wraith Knight 6% 31% 28% Riptide(5++) 6% 20% 14% Guardsman 83% 46% 56% Tyranid Warrior 25% 31% 42% Fire Warrior 42% 42% 42%
The models where the S. Beetles outperform the E.Grubs significantly are multi-wound models. Meanwhile, the E. Grubs are only better against all vehicles and Guardsman, but they are fairly close against most things. Fascinating performance for D. Larva. Kinda hard to justify it. I've only run it a couple times in a game because I saw some similar math on theTyranidHive, but it is fairly stark how much less effective it is against most things than S. Beetles.

Rear Armor 10 dropping in on your side of the board with 3 HP? Is that even a serious question, what do you think wings + Devourers do man? Your opponent now has a 300 or army. Hell you could just about assault it to death. You have a worse rate of wounding with Grubs here. Assault the drop pod, any MC will knock it out in a couple of turns. Each TO dev should have the same damage output vs these as well.

eGrubs are not at all necessary. Feel free to run the numbers, but I can already tell you AVG 5+ hits with a single Devourer at S6 is outdamaging the 3x S5 grubs. You will do about 1.5 Wounds against TEQ with Devourers, .75 each. Feel free to do the math with 3 sBeetles hits, it's going to be doing a Wound a turn to a Centurion by itself on average. Better vs Cents (it's critical tho, kill the Cents you win) but much better vs say Marines where he can get 6 hits, or bikes where it ignores the jink as well as the armor (Exocrine can't do this). Pathfinders in the ruin is another good example, be sure to include these in your math.

If you want to cover your bases, I think sBeetles is the way to go, might be wrong and will exalt the maths either way because I'm curious. But if the biggest threat in your meta is Grav Spam, you'd be crazy to take Grubs over Beetles on a Flyrant. IMO.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
TY for math! Good choice of targets!
But I think you need to include TL Devs (since it's a choice between thorax or Dakota every turn) and damage vs Bikes (T5 Marines)


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And wow Larvae hits Infantry worse than Grubs and doesn't glance vehicles. What w junky thoughtless upgrade by GW.

Something that becomes especially lethal in low point games (if you want to be competitive and don't mind the un-fluffiness of Tyranids using fortifications) is the venom in a box idea. You can have a flyrant on the ground turn 1 (and sometimes even 2 if you set up well) jinking for a 2+ with shrouded. I believe that using something like this is actually a great way to bring back dedicated close combat flyrants. That one turn of ground vulnerability is much less of an issue if you're rocking 2+ cover.


The same goes with a flying hive tyrant, but that usually only works for one turn. Either way, you get to say, "what alpha strike?" Especially sucks for drop pod armies as they have to waste a LOT of firepower trying to take down the bastion to get at the venomthrope or finding a way around cover. In that configuration, I like having a squad of warriors on top of the bastion to have a large synapse bubble (and to provide it to the venomthrope as well)

Nasty Flyrant
Warriors with barbed strangler
Rippers
Venom in a box

That puts you right about at 500 and gives you a good amount of points to play around with on the flyrant.

Unfortunately I don't have a box for the Venomthrope at the moment, so that's a no-go for this one.

Thanks very much for your responses all, very helpful.

It looks like we're boiling it down to three basic options.

List 1, Flying Devourer and friends

Hive Tyrant (240)
Wings, 2x Devourers, Shreddershard Beetles

Venomthrope (45)

Zoanthrope (50)

10 Termagants (60)
5 Fleshborers, 5 Devourers

10 Termagants (60)
5 Fleshborers, 5 Devourers

Biovore (45)

List 2, Tervigon, Exocrine and their children

Tervigon (205)
Shreddershard Beetles

Venomthrope (45)

10 Termagants (40)

10 Termagants (40)

Exocrine (170)

List 3, Deathleaper and his pet Mawloc

Deathleaper (130)

Venomthrope (45)

3 Tyranid Warriors (100)
Barbed Strangler

10 Termagants (40)

Biovore (45)

Mawloc (140)

You can actually fit a surprising amount of stuff into a 500 point game. All three lists offer something cool.

The flying Devourer Tyrant is a proven-effective gunboat, Shreddershards allow him to pull enemy units out of cover and I have enough left over to make a modest push on the objective. I will also have Warp Lance on the off chance that a Land Raider does park on the objective somehow.

The Tervigon/Exocrine combo is a traditional Tyranid tsunami. Two monsters, 11T6/3+ wounds with (at worst) a 5+ cover save against almost everything is going to be really hard to put down (unless I face too many Centurions, and even then they can only do so much, right?), and we have weight of numbers on our side too.

The Deathleaper list is cool. A Mawloc can (fairly) safely destroy a firebase, and in a small game Tyranid Warriors aren't as fragile as they are in larger games (again, a Venomthrope following them around helps).

Of the three I think list 1 will probably do best. It's very jack-of-all-trades.

I think #2 is by far the best, followed by #3. I don't like #1 for a fair few reasons. For starters, the Zoey is wasted points. It will take about 12 turns to kill a LR. He also benefits nothing from the Venomthrope, who is doing nothing but giving cover to a Flyrant turn 1, and he's already got 4+ jink just in case they do get first have enough ranged AP 3 to alpha him. Position him back field and use the points saved from cutting him, the Zoey, and the random ass Biovore, to take a Mawloc. Anything that can threaten the Flyrant turn 1 has to risk eating a Mawloc blast to do it, and Cents won't even take 2 wounds from a Jinking Flyrant even in jump mode. If you are worried about the Gants having no Synapse, drop for DS Rippers, take Regen on the Loc (he can Regen in reserves), or just give both MC's AG.
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The second list to me looks fine, except you have very little to deal with Cents in the ruin. This is a bad thing, although I like the combo. It's gonna suck when everything you want to kill the most sits in the ruin each game. I'd leave this for 750 where you can support it a bit better, and there will be more units likely less to hide in safety of the Ruin. If you are going to take it though, I'd drop the Venomthrope who isn't doing much here, and whatever else you can to take more Biovores.

I see no flaws whatsoever in the second one though. BTW for your building, Biovores are 40 pts not 45.

Xyptc wrote:

Spoiler:

Right, I have a mini tournament coming up in a few weeks at a local GW.

The rules are
- 500 points max
- Battle-forged
- Games will be played on a 24"x48" board with a single objective in the middle

It's 16 players, knockout system, and given the small table sizes I imagine it will be fast and brutal.

I'm looking for ideas on what to run from my Hive Fleet, and I'm coming up with all sorts of crazy ideas (ever one to try something a little unconventional).

At first I considered FMC spam, but on such a small table I really worry that Swooping will be a liability because of the limited turning arc. It is also likely that the incoming fire won't be that bad.

The way I see it, there are two major things I need to plan for. First, the scramble for the objective in the middle; I either need something incredibly tough to sit on it, or to deal so much damage that my opponent cannot contest it. Second, I need to watch out for really nasty, hard hitting units (my local meta is currently loving Grav spam), and should ideally have something fairly lethal to wipe them out safely.

Venomthropes and Termagants sound like good ideas for moving up on the objective. Tunneling Rippers also sound tempting. I can fiddle around with that, and would even consider an HQ Tervigon or Tyrannofex (or both) to push for the objective.

The "lethal" part is where I am throwing all sorts of darts at the board though, because in such a small game I think I have a chance to unleash a few things that maybe don't work so well in large games.

Deathleaper is a resilient, nasty HQ that can guide in a Mawloc for that killer-strike I'm looking for.

A Devourer/Winged Tyrant is always a solid choice, but as I mention above I worry about it not fulfilling its role as a gunboat as well as it could because it will probably have to spend a few turns gliding.

This brings me to a really nasty melee Tyrant with the Reaper and Wings, which has the speed to cross the board and can enjoy both a Bonesword with Shred and also S8 on the charge thanks to the Reaper and Adrenals. That's very tempting, but expensive.

I cannot run Living Artillery, but an Exocrine is also lethal and on a small board its limited range is not such an issue.

So much to choose from! Any ideas/suggestions from people who have played such tiny games before?

What about something like this:

Tyranid prime
-Scything talons
-Rending claws
-Toxin sacs

18 Termagants
10 Termagants

Venomthrope

T-fex
-Acid spray
-Electroshock grubs
-Adrenal glands

Total: 497

I would attach the Prime to the Venomthrope, then bubblewrap the unit in gants. Place the Prime closest so you can LoS! wounds to the larger gant unit or perhaps even meaner you can LoS! to the T-fex. Place the T-fex nearby, preferably in cover or at least slightly behind the Venomthrope+Prime unit so you can get the 5+ from intervening modified to 3+ from shrouded.

If you move towards the objective as a whole "onion" you will keep your Venomthrope alive long enough to provide the essential cover to the T-fex and gants. Most smart opponents will ignore the T-fex until they have to deal with it, but since you'll be LoS! some of the wounds to it, they will probably have to deal with it. Additionally, because he's got a 2+, he'll be able to tank lots of firepower.

I gave it Adrenals because when you want to tarpit a unit, you don't want to fail that uber important charge.

The Prime I gave toxin sacs due to the same reason that Genestealers were obligated to take them in 5th edition. With re-rollable wounds, you significantly increase your chance of rending.

EDIT: Sorry, I didn't see you already had it narrowed down to the 3 lists. I think I like the first list the most. It is most TAC, gives you psychic defense (kinda) too.

I also thought that this could be funny:

Tyranid Prime
-Scything talons
-Rending claws

Carnifex brood
1 Dakkafex (dual TL-deathspitters)
1 Carnifex with Scything talons, Crushing Claws, Bio-Plasma, and Toxin-sacs

10 Termagants
10 Termagants

Same kind of idea, use Prime to Los! wounds to either one of the carnifexen, and if they lose a couple wounds, start pawning those wounds off to the gant units.

I know the Carnifex unit isn't optimized, but because you can't fit two dakkafexen into this list you'd have to do something like each with 1 set of TL-Devouerers and 1 set of TL-deathspitters. Without split fire though I feel that a twin carnifex unit like this would be wasted. On second thought, you could start by allocating lots of those wounds to the shooty fex, and once you've closed the distance, start allocating to every other.

A Carnifex with Scything talons + crushing claws is nothing to scoff at on the charge. D3+1 S9 HoW attacks + 5 attacks at S10 AP2 on the charge, re-rolling 2+ to wound is pretty bad ass. They are at WS 3, so yeah, you may only hit two-three times but you'll ID everything. Unless they have an invuln save which you'd eventually get through and ID them.

Against a T6 unit, most firepower will plink off. Those Grav Cents could be a problem, so I'd dump all of those wounds to the gant units.

Here's a little Endless Swarm list I messed around with today. 2000pts, 2 CAD

Both CAD's:

Dakka Flyrant
Dakka Flyrant

Zoanthrope
Zoanthrope
Zoanthrope
Venomthrope
Venomthrope
Venomthrope

3 Rippers with DS
3 Rippers with DS
3 Rippers with DS
3 Warriors with Barbed Strangler

Trygon Prime
Carnifex with Crushing Claws
Carnifex with Crushing Claws
Biovore
Biovore

Endless Swarm Formation:

15 Hormagaunts
15 Hormagaunts
14 Hormagaunts
10 Termagaunts
10 Termagaunts
10 Termagaunts
3 Warriors with Barbed Strangler

24 units
2 Flyers
5 MC
8 Synapse
10 WC
102 Models

Trygon pops up to provide a tunnel for the swarm to respawn from
Rippers deepstrike back in just to be annoying
Warriors provide mid/back field synapse while supporting with the barbed stranglers
Termagaunts hold rear objectives and mid objectives
Biovores help blast units out of cover
Carnifex's are there because I think they look cool might even be useful vs AV14 under certain circumstances

Not the best thing in the world, but still looks like it could be fun!

Xyptc wrote:
List 1, Flying Devourer and friends

I think this one isn't great for the reasons you specified.

Xyptc wrote:
List 2, Tervigon, Exocrine and their children

Could work. I prefer Carnifexes to Exocrines in TAC lists. Might be the Exocrine is better for you meta.

Xyptc wrote:
List 3, Deathleaper and his pet Mawloc

Deathleaper (130)

Venomthrope (45)

3 Tyranid Warriors (100)
Barbed Strangler

10 Termagants (40)

Biovore (45)

Mawloc (140)

This list has problems. It comes in phases. It will be too easy for your opponent to deal with Deathleaper while you are waiting for your Mawloc to come in. The Biovore costs 5 points less than you marked. If you opponent manages to Kill Deathleaper turn 1, which he should, then your Mawloc will likely scatter when it arrives and not do much of an effect. Are you really going to keep Deathleaper alive and within 6" of an enemy until turn 4 when the Mawloc is sure to come in? Mawlocs are highly random, and can be used by mitigating the randomness by taking multiples. At 500 points you don't have that luxury. If you get lucky, it might be a highly effective list, but if you get unlucky, you will lose.

 SHUPPET wrote:
Rear Armor 10 dropping in on your side of the board with 3 HP? Is that even a serious question, what do you think wings + Devourers do man? Your opponent now has a 300 or army. Hell you could just about assault it to death. You have a worse rate of wounding with Grubs here.

Part of the wonder of E.Grubs is that you can hit multiple things with the template. 1 Wound on the drop pod, 1 wound on the Dred. Then assault one or the other. My suggestion was specifically Tervigon with E.Grubs. It can't outrun, get back armor, or shoot 2 TL-devourers at a dred or drop pod. The biggest reason for E.Grubs against Dred's is for overwatch. Walkers are awesome in Close combat these days against MC's. 50% chance to hit it with smash (tervigon / TFex) If you hit you will probably wound, but only a 17% of doing more than one wound. If a full HP dred assaults a tervigon, it will take the tervigon on average 5 turns to kill it. Do you want to allow his 140 point model to tarpit your only synapse for most of the game with a serious shot at killing it?

 SHUPPET wrote:
Assault the drop pod, any MC will knock it out in a couple of turns. Each TO dev should have the same damage output vs these as well.

If you can spend 2 turns assaulting a drop pod to kill it with an MC, it means your opponent is winning that game or doing something wrong. Especially at 500 points when you can have 2 MC's at most.

 SHUPPET wrote:
eGrubs are not at all necessary. Feel free to run the numbers, but I can already tell you AVG 5+ hits with a single Devourer at S6 is outdamaging the 3x S5 grubs. You will do about 1.5 Wounds against TEQ with Devourers, .75 each. Feel free to do the math with 3 sBeetles hits, it's going to be doing a Wound a turn to a Centurion by itself on average. Better vs Cents (it's critical tho, kill the Cents you win) but much better vs say Marines where he can get 6 hits, or bikes where it ignores the jink as well as the armor (Exocrine can't do this). Pathfinders in the ruin is another good example, be sure to include these in your math.

I'll add TL-Devourers to the math. As well as Drop Pods (armor 12) and Back armor on Dred (armor 10).

 SHUPPET wrote:
I don't like #1 for a fair few reasons. For starters, the Zoey is wasted points. It will take about 12 turns to kill a LR.

The zoey isn't there to pop Land Raiders. All of the lists are screwed against Land Raiders. He is there as somewhat durable synapse (because the Flyrant will have other things on his mind). He also serves as a support unit (another psychic power roll, warp charge battery for Tyrant). Lastly, he might take some pot shots at marines. Warp blast can kill a few 3+ save models a turn. Warp Lance can ID a Centurion.

Carnifexes can already deal with armor well. Crushing Claws are for things like Tervigons or Tyrant Guard.

I know what the odds say, but I've charged monoliths and landraiders with an AG carnifex and failed to stop them plenty of times. Im hoping Strength10 armorbane and an extra attack from 2 sets of weapons will fix that.

Although honestly, this is just trying to fish for a purpose for a unit I love to look at; I think the claw/talon carnifexs look so cool

Holy gak Tag! I'm loving your contributions as of late, thanks heaps for the calcs.

I can see eGrubs being considerable on the Terv actually. He's never going to get to apply SShard beetles to anything even if the stats are better, and eGrubs gives him a role. He sho-uld still probably be assaulting that pod tho,, justto deny the turn of shooting from it. eGrubs may save you a turn tho.

I was more talking about Tyrant who does have the mobility to shard the Cents and Oblits. Looking at the stats the difference not huge, but at 500 pts the difference between 1 dead Cent and a live one can be the game. I just think it's more useful than eGrubs, which isn't nearly as important you must agree. However, looking at the stats I can see the AT being worth it for the utility.

That being said however, he did say he wanted ways to deal with Grav spam

 SHUPPET wrote:
That being said however, he did say he wanted ways to deal with Grav spam

I interpreted Grav Spam to be a marine Command squad arriving via drop pod or on bikes. I didn't realize it was Grav Centurions. I have very, very little experience with Centurions, though they look like a prime target for a gargoyle tarpit.