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Yah, Heirophant rules please.

 SHUPPET wrote:
Ductvader did a calculation of their compared efficiency to other common standard infantry, and found that 12/30 was the optimal number of Gants for max efficiency.

I would be very interested in seeing that math. I can even guess what assumptions he was making to reach a conclusion like that... It doesn't really seem like an answer math could get....

240 pts got you 20 deepstriking Devilgants in a pod. With the PE bubble that you should always endeavour to place around the Gants landing zone, puts 20 wounds on T4, 27 on T3. All saves allowed.

For 265 pts (marginal difference) 30 outflanking Devilgants put 22 wounds on T4, 30 on t3. Even narrowing that down to 240 pts gives you still more wounds, thanks to the new point reduction of both gants and devourers.
at the cost of the reliability of a drop pod of course.

First, you sort of 'hand wave' the assumption of PE; which I think was more than a trivial matter. It could be done, but it also often meant limiting where the flyrant and/or gaunts went. But, I think that is a minor matter really.

I did a similar calculation when the codex came out. I used to run 15 Devilgaunts in a pod, and for the same points, I could not get 30 gaunts with 18 devourers. This gave me *more* shooting potential, and I could still lose 15 'ablative' wounds before cutting into my '6E' offensive baseline. It makes it a bit harder to target things like long fangs and other 'backfield' units... but being on the board also means they can provide a cover save for others, and potentially start shooting on turn 1.

I think its also worth noting that unlocking Tervigons troops is no longer anywhere near as important as it once was take that facts relevance to Devilgants in both editions however you choose.

Not sure if I completely agree.
If you are CAD limited, getting the Terv out of the HQ makes way for the flyrants.
In any case, it is still nice to have an OS TMC instead of 'just' scoring.
Unlocking means 30 gaunts + terv = 315pts. To not unlock means 2 gaunts + terv = 275 points.... you aren't really saving that much.
And in line with this thread... if you want to run devilgaunts, you want largish broods anyway, That way you have 'enough' devilguants and still have 'enough' ablative wound fleshgaunts.

Malanthropes look amazing, and the Stonecrusher looks quite good, a nice alternative to the Dakkafex.

 Gray1378 wrote:
Question for xxtz, was the Hierophant or Harridan improved or changed at all?? What about the hieroduels??

I'm just relaying stuff from The Tyranid Hive from someone who bought the book today.

There's rules for the: Dimachaeron, Hierophant, both Hierodules, Harridan, Malanthrope, Meiotic Spores & the Crusher 'Fex

The GCs seem to be the same as in the Apoc books ... The upgrades are the same as in the IA:Apoc book.

 xttz wrote:
This is a massive target on the same scale as a Knight, yet can only move 6" a turn? Plus it needs to reach combat and eat a suitable morsel to earn the FNP ability. Yeah, it's not gonna live long.
And FW forgot to give it Fearless like every other Tyranid MC.

Entire page of clunky rules jacking up the cost of the model 50pts: check.
Customary T6 3+ save so it can die to most weapons: check.
So large it can't get a decent cover save: check.
Lack of assault grenades and EW so a special weapon hiding in a shrub can take it down: check.

Seems like the usual garbage.

In other news, the earths temperature increased 15 degrees after a giant dust cloud enveloped the planet. Scientists confirmed the source of this cloud was every Malanthrope in the world being taken off the shelf and getting dusted off at the same time.

Wait why are malanthropes being dusted off?

 jifel wrote:
Wait why are malanthropes being dusted off?

Because they offer the same special rules as a normal Venomthrope but are significantly more durable for under twice the cost?

So they put the Dimea in Fast attack, even though he's slower than our troops (horms, outflanking, ds rippers), slower than 2 our HQs, and two of our Heavys? Could they have not given him Deepstrike lol? Or does he have it and I missed it?

As it stands, they are what Trygons should have been, without DS. Sorry but CC MCs just aren't reliable, that is a lot of points to waste.Haruspex didn't work for a reason, same reason nobody in the history of anything takes Carnifexes as anything but a gunboat.

With DS however they are great.

I could see fishing for Master of Ambush and outflanking 2 of them.

 CKO wrote:

Hive Fleet Newt

Hq
Hive Tyrant - 2xTL-Devourer/Brain-leeched, Electroshock Grubs, Wings, Hive Commander

Hive Tyrant - 2xTL-Devourer/Brain-leeched, Electroshock Grubs, Wings

2xTyrant Guard - Crushing Claws/Rending Claws, Adrenal Glands

2xTyrant Guard - Crushing Claws/Rending Claws, Adrenal Glands

Troops
30xTermaguants

Tervigon - Crushing Claws, Electroshcok Grubs

Elite
Venomthrope

Heavy Support
Carnifex - 2xTL Devourer/Brainleeched

Tyrannofex - Acid Spray

Incubator Node Formation
Tervigon - Crushing Claws, Electroshock Grubs

10xTermagaunts

10xTermagaunts

10xTermaguants

Here is the list that I posted earlier and I greatly appreciate everyones comments. Some of the comments made wants me to add more fire power to the list and I do agree things can be shifted around a little and I could make the units slightly more deadly as rigeld2 suggested with this post.

rigeld2 wrote:
I'd drop the Tyrannofex and Venomthrope for another Dakkafex, 5 Devourers in all the 10 man Gant squads, and Toxin Sacs on the Incubator Tervigon.

With as many gants as you're planning to flood the field with, giving them poison seems useful. And I've never loved the Tyrannofex if you're using it as a cover save. A Dakkafex will kill just as much usually.

When I play test I will be sure to keep an eye on my gaunt squads to see if the extra fire power could be used. I am thinking if I do an upgrade for this list it should be adrenal glands. Fleet combine with move-through cover makes them really fast and furious charge str 4 can hurt vehicles and its cheaper. Their job in this list is not necessarily to do damage but tie up stuff (riptides and necron command barges) and have an msu like effect when facing deathstars, especially if the tervigons can keep them coming.

 SHUPPET wrote:
At first look, It seems like a heavily CC oriented list, that needs more focused CC like the Tyrant guard and less crashing heavy WS3 monsters like the Tervigon, or volume of WS3 attacks like Termagants.

I agree with you, tervigons and termagants are not a reliable source of damage. Their sole purpose is to survive and be difficult to kill, the gants are going to be numerous and in several different squads making killing all of them difficult. One tervigon is going to have a cover save with a venomthrope nearbye and the other one with outflank will be able to position itself in a safe spot. The termagants can do so damage but I am not relying on them for that, I know for a fact that they can tie up stuff and thats their main role not neccessarily destroying things. The tervigons pumps out more gants, provides synaspe, a psyker, and because of the upgrades is a tank-hunter aswell. If I can tie up 1-2 units with the gants, the tervigons create 3-5 new gant squads and survive because all of the fire power went towards the things that can actually do damage I will be in a good position to win.

 SHUPPET wrote:
If I had to recommend something, it would be dropping the 3X10 large squads of Terms, incubator might add slightly to your percentage of Gants spawned it multiplyd equally to your chances to tie.Over an extended period of time it's no actual net gain.

I know that re-rolling 1's is not a huge buff but having 3 squads instead of 1 helps me achieve my msu goal. Also I will have several units that can claim objectives with malestrom missions, the ability to claim an objective without forfeiting offense is a big advantage. Claiming objectives is just as important as doing damage in some cases.

 SHUPPET wrote:
At the cost of 30 Gants, which you will already have an abundance of, it could be more focused CC like maybe Lictors or Shrikes, or even more Tyrant Guard. In fact I think the entire list could benefit largely from more of anything if you can find points elsewhere, at the moment it's a big strong war of attrition of S3 and S6 in volume of WS3 attacks, with no faster, directed, point to the broadsword.

The Imperium does not fear the efficiency of the Tyranids but their numbers. During the game my opponent will eventually realize that the gants claiming objectives or tieing up the stuff is winning me the game not the flyrant, carnifex, or the tyrant guard.

 SHUPPET wrote:
Other than Flyrants who will have a hard time making it into combat alive as obvious "shoot me" buttons. Especially since you currently need to use then to Synapse your 60 Terms + spawns, who should NEVER be in range of the Tervigon feedback. They might be suicide units, that doesn't mean we can afford to throw their points in the trash for nothing.

The backlash on average is usually 4-5 dead gants its definitely something to be concern about but it will not dictate my movement phase. I agree the flyrants should never be considered suicide units getting the best out of them will come with experience.

pinecone77 wrote:
Looks nice. Though I'd find 10 points to put a Thorax Hive on the Tyranofex, that second template is always (IMHO ) worth it. Personally I would not bother with Crushing Claws FTW! and would spend the points elsewhere...but that is a "style" thing. I also habitually add Adrenal to Tyranofex, because adding Fleet makes it so threatening that it attracts all the fire, and that is her main job.

The tyranofex did have a thorax before I changed a mawloc to a carnifex with tl-devourer and I needed 10 more points. I love crushing claws its like a cheap powerfist that makes my tervigons actually useful in cc, imagine drop pods or rhinos trying to contest. Drop the haywire on them than charge it to finish it off and the tyrant guard become beast because of them the i 1 thing is meh we usually strike last anyone because of lack of grenades.

As for the new units the new venomthrope thing is really good and if that monstrous creature has rampage we are talking about an extra d3 attacks and it has ws 8 the thing is a beast. Slow as hell but a beast none the less.

rigeld2 wrote:

 jifel wrote:
Wait why are malanthropes being dusted off?

Because they offer the same special rules as a normal Venomthrope but are significantly more durable for under twice the cost?

I hadn't read the rules yet, but looking now, I like it! Yes, I most certainly will build one...

Like how Trygons used to be, you probably should take 3 or none, as strength in numbers is critical here. 1 Will die, 2 wont do enough damage, 3 secures the investment.


And the games that you get MoA these things will be very strong.

You know why Dakkafexes are good? Because they don't waste 600 pts of your army when you DON'T get MoA.

Its really a shame. If these things were given 12" move (they are FA after all) or some form of entry method, at the cost of any of those clunky ass special rules, I'd find a way to run 3, I miss the Trygon a lot (and I am actually a fan of the new model itself.

The idea of 6" assault MCs has been proven and tried as bad. Carnifexes CC at least provide some role - avoidable assault but map control bubble against tanks that we have little to no capabilities against, combined with being one of if not THE best dakka platforms in the book. What is this guys role? An avoidable assault bubble of infantry death? Sorry, but that's practically what every Tyranid unit already brings to the table. Doubling down on it is not a sensible competitive option.

It has potential but I am trying to think what type of list does it need to go in to be good?

 SHUPPET wrote:


Its really a shame. If these things were given 12" move (they are FA after all) or some form of entry method, at the cost of any of those clunky ass special rules, I'd find a way to run 3, I miss the Trygon a lot (and I am actually a fan of the new model itself.
.

Yep. If these things had 12" move, or even started with 1 FnP token, or something... it would really make a difference. As it is, it isn't *that* hard to kill before it hits CC.

OTOH... it *is* kind of a beast in CC. 8-10 S8 attacks and 1 S10 AP1 autohit is nothing to sneeze at, it will mess up even bikes or wraithguard etc. Which means the enemy kind of *needs* to make it a priority. If you can get it catalyst, or follow with a venom/malan for a good cover save, it may either make it, or cause them to devote a *lot* of firepower to killing it. Its not a trivial task to take out 6W T6 3+/3+cover creature. It can be done, but how many resources need to be allocated?

They cost about the same per wound as any other TMC.

Good Lord...

The Dimachaeron seems...horribly redundant in itself.

An entire page of special rules? Really now? Did it really need a special subtype that seems to conflict with its existing subtype's own rules?

Hey you, take a dangerous terrain check for leaping. Oh, wait, Monstrous Creatures have MTC so autopass. Yay foresight!

The fact every weapon seems to have to be a new weapon with a new paragraph of monstrously redundant special rules and AP values to ramp their cost - hey, let's make them all AP2 despite them being only on this monstrous creature with smash. That'll make the points totally worth it! Let's give them all these horribly awkward special rules with seemingly more dependant terms and conditions than a ponzi scheme!

The lack of Fearless on it as well...well, that's not going to sit pretty. Not only is it in a Fast Attack slot competing against other things but it needs a constant Synapse babysitter now. And doesn't really move that fast to be honest.

I still can't understand the point of Leaper as a sub type. Why not just give it jump? Or why not just give it bounding leap ala Hormagaunts?

They're really trying too hard with this thing.

coredump wrote:

 SHUPPET wrote:
Ductvader did a calculation of their compared efficiency to other common standard infantry, and found that 12/30 was the optimal number of Gants for max efficiency.

I would be very interested in seeing that math. I can even guess what assumptions he was making to reach a conclusion like that... It doesn't really seem like an answer math could get....

240 pts got you 20 deepstriking Devilgants in a pod. With the PE bubble that you should always endeavour to place around the Gants landing zone, puts 20 wounds on T4, 27 on T3. All saves allowed.

For 265 pts (marginal difference) 30 outflanking Devilgants put 22 wounds on T4, 30 on t3. Even narrowing that down to 240 pts gives you still more wounds, thanks to the new point reduction of both gants and devourers.
at the cost of the reliability of a drop pod of course.

First, you sort of 'hand wave' the assumption of PE; which I think was more than a trivial matter. It could be done, but it also often meant limiting where the flyrant and/or gaunts went. But, I think that is a minor matter really.

I did a similar calculation when the codex came out. I used to run 15 Devilgaunts in a pod, and for the same points, I could not get 30 gaunts with 18 devourers. This gave me *more* shooting potential, and I could still lose 15 'ablative' wounds before cutting into my '6E' offensive baseline. It makes it a bit harder to target things like long fangs and other 'backfield' units... but being on the board also means they can provide a cover save for others, and potentially start shooting on turn 1.

I think its also worth noting that unlocking Tervigons troops is no longer anywhere near as important as it once was take that facts relevance to Devilgants in both editions however you choose.

Not sure if I completely agree.
If you are CAD limited, getting the Terv out of the HQ makes way for the flyrants.
In any case, it is still nice to have an OS TMC instead of 'just' scoring.
Unlocking means 30 gaunts + terv = 315pts. To not unlock means 2 gaunts + terv = 275 points.... you aren't really saving that much.
And in line with this thread... if you want to run devilgaunts, you want largish broods anyway, That way you have 'enough' devilguants and still have 'enough' ablative wound fleshgaunts.

I don't often respond to posts like this as it is an unnecessary writing style that forces a similarly structured response, which is less than ideal for me to attempt to replicate on a phone screen half the size of my palm. Also, I find that more often than not, people structure posts as such to give them free reign to ignore context, and take individual statements out of it for the sake of being right by making someone else wrong. Just in my experience.


However, I'm just going to respond to your quotes in numerical order, and you can match it up to the relevant post.

Quote #1 - I too would like to see the math too as I strongly stated, this wasn't intended to be anything other than anecdotal, merely sharing the eventual conclusions of a user who did put more time and thought into than many others did. I personally won't FULLY trust the process until I see it myself, a message I'm still waiting on, but as I said, it's as good a starting point as any, and I have picked it up as my standard. Here's what he shared with me in a personal message:


Looks to me as though his math was fairly in depth - and oh his process even predicted your response any further issues here, take them up with duct as I can't answer them, I was merely sharing his findings when the topic was brought up. You might not have found them relevant but I'm sure it's possible someone else has, as I certainly did.


Quote #2 - ok well if you thought dropping 240 pts worth of one of the most Synapse dependant units in the codex outside of Flyrant range was ever going to be the best way to play it, than I don't know what to say to you. As always - more power to you friend. I personally always endeavoured to place my Flyrant in range of them, and not just for Synapse, as I showed in my previous post that PE bubble gave 20 of them the firepower of about 29. Very relevant when it's a unit that you expect to get the most out of the turn it arrives, less the second and none the the third. You only needed that Flyrant there a single turn to get often UP TO double the damage out of them (about 150% shooting buff for the first turn + Synapse for next turn will just about double your output if even half the squad survives). The other fast Synapse option, I never found it a good idea to rely on Zopes for their Synapse, who needed to be much more careful with their positioning, plus had a scatter of their own, unlike Swooping a Flyrant up, but I guess it was an option.
So sure, PE wasn't guaranteed if their side of the board was too risky, but this is an unlikely situations, especially compared to the current situation of landing on the suboptimal side of the board 33% of the time, which might leave you out of range of the ideal target, or at worst out of range of everything you can even hurt. This is far more crippling than a loss of PE, and although unlikely, no more so than not having PE was in 5E. For either of these to happen would take an unfortunately turn of uncommon events.

As for the comments on squeezing a number into a squad with wounds, this clearly was not what I was comparing. I agreed its added utility for Termagants in general, and discussed its use in different stages of my post. The comparison was between the effectiveness of a max sized Devildrop in both editions, not the slotting in.of Dakkagants to a set fraction of a gant squad, as its obviously not possible :S


Quote #3 not interested in having this argument. The statement was that unlocking Tervigons as troops is less important. This is pretty undeniable, as Tervigons suck ads now, but even if you feel they are still good, they definitely got WORSE, thus the need for scoring Tervigons is much LESS now. As I also said, you can take the relevance of this fact however you like as there will be differing opinions to how relevant that was and has been on the choice to take Devilgants, I specifically added this to avoid being trolled into the argument that diehard Tervigon supporters seem to love wasting everybody's time with, but I did feel the statement itself was worth remembering.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 DarkStarSabre wrote:
Good Lord...

The Dimachaeron seems...horribly redundant in itself.

An entire page of special rules? Really now? Did it really need a special subtype that seems to conflict with its existing subtype's own rules?

Hey you, take a dangerous terrain check for leaping. Oh, wait, Monstrous Creatures have MTC so autopass. Yay foresight!

The fact every weapon seems to have to be a new weapon with a new paragraph of monstrously redundant special rules and AP values to ramp their cost - hey, let's make them all AP2 despite them being only on this monstrous creature with smash. That'll make the points totally worth it! Let's give them all these horribly awkward special rules with seemingly more dependant terms and conditions than a ponzi scheme!

The lack of Fearless on it as well...well, that's not going to sit pretty. Not only is it in a Fast Attack slot competing against other things but it needs a constant Synapse babysitter now. And doesn't really move that fast to be honest.

I still can't understand the point of Leaper as a sub type. Why not just give it jump? Or why not just give it bounding leap ala Hormagaunts?

They're really trying too hard with this thing.

I've never agreed with you more. It's not only poorly designed, but also poorly written. You just nailed a lot of the poor writing, even though the gameplay design is equally poor.

I can't place my finger exactly on why, but the news of the Dimae has left me feeling... Insulted. It had so much potential and then they went and made a conscious decision with the leaper rule to find a way to make it Jump and MOVE NO MORE THAN 6". They are deliberately trying to force this Haruspex-esque style of play down our throats. They had the potential to do something right and at the same time fix a mistake or two - instead they deliberately try to pigeonhole this into the same, boringass style of MC that gets looked over, e.g walking Tyrant, Haruspex, CC Carni, etc. Like "hey guys now you're DEFINITELY going to want to do this gak, we gave it incredible WS, 8x S8 attacks, and some unique CC special rules!". No. The concept is flawed. 6" move speed, no transport, no entry method. We even don't care if it can kill Abaddon 6 times over before combat starts. You think anyone would take Abaddon on foot?

Yeah. Insulted and annoyed. It's a shame cause the model, but - BOYCOTTING. Put some real effort into design instead of trying to sell models off what I'm sure they envision are cool special rules.

Not being fearless for the new FW MC (Dima-something) is actually interesting because it's able to GTG for a 2+ cover with a Venomthrope (or now, more likely, a malanthrope) backing it up. You can then use dominion to put it back in synapse and just keep rocking up the board. I think having 2-3 malanthropes can make footslogging lists much more viable. Sure, ignores cover will mean that you NEED Master of Ambush, but most armies really aren't packing that much, sans Tau. And getting through 4 T5 wounds (presumably with 2+ cover) is not at all easy to do. Most durable 85 point unit I've ever seen, that's for sure.

All that being said, it is pretty stupid that they couldn't just give the FW MC a 12" move or DS. Highly doubt that I'll pick it up, although that many s9 attacks on the charge is pretty nice.

Something I would like to try and revisit is making a more concerted attempt at making Mawlocs work. I think we can all agree that there's no point in combining them with lictors (except maybe with infiltrate and some decent LOS-blocking terrain) but I've found that the Mawloc can be incredibly useful when it hits. Often it will go back into reserves, letting it strike time and time again. Being able to pop up anywhere is so crucial in maelstrom, and with the advent of many armies going MSU to contest a variety of objectives, I do believe that the Mawloc is licking it's chops (or whatever those appendages are). I do think that 3 might be overkill, but who knows? They're pretty cheap. Has anyone tried this? I still need to pick up a third mawloc currently

Mawlocs are amazing. Smash nerf hurt them, as they were so cheap and mobile a couple really threatened Vehics. AG makes them ace skimmers and transports however. They are still the cheapest source of MC wounds in the dex while putting alot of hurt on... Everything.


There is not no point to running Lictors with them. Mawlocs are all assault once they hit the board, Lictors are able to support them quite well being one of the only things that will really be there in time, in combats against things Mawlocs get bogged down against. Mawlocs do have hit and run however, and It's possible that Shrikes do this better, but Lictors and Mawlocs do synergise well, and the perfect accuracy blast call down into combat is just a bonus. It's mainly if you are already running DLAB - mamakes Mawlocs a good pick.

Running Mawlocs I like at least two Crones - these are your best chance to pop a Vehicle with key infantry inside, BEFORE a Mawloc comes down, and also have AP4 cover ignoring for things hiding from Mawloc blast in the ruin.

Mawlocs do a lot - before 7th I think they were the best unit in the dex. Now not as good but still very good. I don't think coming piecemeal is a good idea try use units that threaten at the same time like Flyrants and outflanking Devilgant drops. Be sure to play Flyrants supercareful early turns, using range and jink to stay alive.

That's my take on them.

The problem is MCs can no longer GTG so that little trick isn't going to work unfortunately.

I am with a majority, the 6" movement really makes this guy not worth it. You can have all the special rules in the world regarding ID but ultimately you are hoofing it at 6" with T6 and 6W and a 3+, that's not that hard to take down.

Someone could make a case for "fun" games but for "fun" games i already have 75% of the Tyranid codex that i currently don't use.

Shuppet, we smoked Tau on our game Saturday with the list posted.

Warriors, Shrikes, venomthrope and every last termagant were wiped out; both Crones, both Biovores and three out of four Flyrants survived. He had a riptide, several crisis suits, huge number of markelights - everything in the main combat zone was pulverized and tyranids were never in danger of losing the relic.

Really miss Skyblight's OS , reincarnating Gargoyles. This is a strong list but troops are probably the main weakness. Might just try running with even more termagants next time.

List recap:
4 x Flyrant 2 TLD, ES grubs

2 x Hive Crone
Shrike brood, 2 x RC, 1 x BS .

2 x 10 termagants
10 termagants
(8 devourers)
3 Tyranid Warriors
2 x RC, 1 x BS

2 x Biovore

Venomthrope

Shuppet, I have no idea why you have chosen to take such an adversarial tone in your response. I have agreed with almost everything you have said, and any disagreements are a matter of degree, not of substance.

Yet you decided to assume I was responding in an "unnecessary" style, and several times alluded to me being a troll. Your response paints you as being overly sensitive and unnecessarily rude.


Ductvader: I give him props for an intriguing methodology and a clever way of approaching the issue. While I would still be interested in seeing the math (And yes I *know* you would to, I was *agreeing* with you, not calling you out.) from what he wrote to you, I think there are so many assumptions required, and so many variables necessairly ignored... the results can't be extrapolated very well.


Flyrant-gaunts: Again, I *agreed* that the devilgaunts were often in PE range, but it was not just a trivial matter.
1) synapse range covers more than 4x the area as PE range.
2) Because the flyrant was already on the board, and had a limited flight path, it meant that getting that PE bonus could easily mean putting either the flyrant or the devilgaunts in a location that was not the best possible location.
3) There were many times where it was better to drop the gaunts in synapse but out of PE because of what needed to be shot, and where the flyrants could get to.

Yes, normally I would get the gaunts in PE range, but that was not always a trivial issue.

As for the comments on squeezing a number into a squad with wounds, this clearly was not what I was comparing. I agreed its added utility for Termagants in general, and discussed its use in different stages of my post. The comparison was between the effectiveness of a max sized Devildrop in both editions, not the slotting in.of Dakkagants to a set fraction of a gant squad, as its obviously not possible :S

I honestly have no idea what you are trying to say. My guess is you are trying to create an argument in a situation where I am agreeing with you...


Tervigon troops: No wonder you are so adversarial... you spend so much effort jumping to conclusions and making wild assumptions.
I never said tervs were good; I have not even run them since the codex dropped. (I much prefer MSU warriors). But *if* someone is taking a terv, then unlocking it as a troop isn't "no longer anywhere near as important ". It may be a bit less important because of the scoring changes, but not taking up an HQ slot and getting OS are still valuable things.
I *never* said tervs were good, the fact that you arbitrarily assumed I was a "diehard tervigon supporter" trying to troll you just illustrates how defensive you are... Sheesh man, who spit in your Wheaties today?

Also, I find that more often than not, people structure posts as such to give them free reign to ignore context, and take individual statements out of it for the sake of being right by making someone else wrong. Just in my experience.

Really? Look, *if* I do those things, then say so... stop with the passive aggressive insinuations of my intentions. The point is I *didn't* take anything you said out of context... but you still decided you wanted to besmirch my post through some 'guilt by association'

Classy.

I find that quoting allows a conversation to stay focused, and makes it *more difficult* to ignore content and context. Yes there is a danger that someone may only quote and respond to a minor snippet, but they respond that way without quoting also...



edit: I did my best to not quote you, since you said it was difficult to respond on your phone that way. You could have simply *asked* instead of resorting to Ad Hominem attacks on *why* I post that way,


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 DarkStarSabre wrote:

Hey you, take a dangerous terrain check for leaping. Oh, wait, Monstrous Creatures have MTC so autopass. Yay foresight!

The fact every weapon seems to have to be a new weapon with a new paragraph of monstrously redundant special rules and AP values to ramp their cost - hey, let's make them all AP2 despite them being only on this monstrous creature with smash. That'll make the points totally worth it! Let's give them all these horribly awkward special rules with seemingly more dependant terms and conditions than a ponzi scheme!

The lack of Fearless on it as well...well, that's not going to sit pretty. Not only is it in a Fast Attack slot competing against other things but it needs a constant Synapse babysitter now. And doesn't really move that fast to be honest.

They have created a number of new Universal Rules and weapon that can now be applied to multiple future units. *That* is why leaping causes DT checks, and the weapons are AP2, etc. So yes, that *is* forsight, they are looking towards the future when they might want to give basic infantry leaping.
Jump packs also cause DT tests, and they are also put on MCs.... same logic.

Why so concerned about fearless? They are Ld10, and have the equivalent of 10 powerfist attacks at WS8 and I6. If they ever do lose combat, they are probably already dead.


This thing is going to be very solid in CC... the question is if we can get it there before it dies... Malanthrope may help there... maybe not enough...

coredump wrote:
Why so concerned about fearless? They are Ld10, and have the equivalent of 10 powerfist attacks at WS8 and I6. If they ever do lose combat, they are probably already dead.

Pinning. Getting pinned one round means this guy is useless. Morale is used for far more than failing combat.

rigeld2 wrote:

coredump wrote:
Why so concerned about fearless? They are Ld10, and have the equivalent of 10 powerfist attacks at WS8 and I6. If they ever do lose combat, they are probably already dead.

Pinning. Getting pinned one round means this guy is useless. Morale is used for far more than failing combat.

But MC's can't be pinned...

Aside from random psychic kookiness that could force it to fall back, the Dimachaeron really only needs to worry about being swept. Lack of assault grenades is a bigger concern. And they'll probably errata Fearless anyway.

 xttz wrote:
But MC's can't be pinned...

I blame lack of sleep.

Aside from random psychic kookiness that could force it to fall back, the Dimachaeron really only needs to worry about being swept. Lack of assault grenades is a bigger concern. And they'll probably errata Fearless anyway.

Getting charged by a Riptide/Wraithknight (or other things) causes a Fear test.. Unlikely to fail, but possible. I agree, though - lack of grenades is worse than the lack of Fearless.

I am going to put some serious thought into this new Hive Mind creation called the Dimachaeron and share my discoveries with everyone within synaspe range. As always Hive Fleet Newt is trying to find the best use out of every unit, infact I think I will do this with some other units aswell if other Fleets find my insight useful.

Dimachaeron moves 6" a turn <--- this is where I stopped reading...

It's tough enough, I could possibly get it into combat turn 2 with a 12" move but 6" move? how am I going to pull that off? am I missing something? is there something else yet to be seen?

bodazoka wrote:
Dimachaeron moves 6" a turn <--- this is where I stopped reading...

It's tough enough, I could possibly get it into combat turn 2 with a 12" move but 6" move? how am I going to pull that off? am I missing something? is there something else yet to be seen?

I'm really hoping that the Leaper trait means it moves an extra 6" a turn for a total of 12" a turn.

Else the thing is bloody useless for the points and slot it is in. Right now it competes with Gargoyles, Shrikes, Raveners, Crones and Harpies for the slot.

For the role it competes with Carnifexes, Hive Tyrants and heaven forbid the Haruspex.

Seriously, it has a nice number of attacks and all...but at 200 points? Ouch. Especially only moving 6" a turn with the standard TMC issues (T6, 3+ save)

Hmm is it possible that is the intended interpretation of it? 6" extra move if you use Leaper in movement phase?

Might explain why they are in the FA slot.

Otherwise it seems pretty gak.

 SHUPPET wrote:
Hmm is it possible that is the intended interpretation of it? 6" extra move if you use Leaper in movement phase?

Might explain why they are in the FA slot.

Otherwise it seems pretty gak.

Actually this makes perfect sense. It would explain why it's in the FA slot, and why that sentence exists. No model needs to "leap" to move 6", so it seems rather logical that it would gain an extra 6" of movement. Does seem somewhat unclear, however if that is the case, I will certainly pick one up. Grab 3 of those and 3 Mawlocs. For 1020 points you have 36 MC wounds. Litter a couple malanthropes and suddenly the opponent won't be able to cut through all of those bad boys. I would love to see the Dimachaeron go to work on pretty much any unit.

I'll be picking up 3 if it gets clarified that way (when I get the money :( )

It'll need some serious confirmation as I'm not willing to take the risk that it doesn't actually play as such until I do.