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barnowl wrote:
For everyone that is running a Venom in a box, Is there a particular you guys are using a Bastion instead of a Bunker in the lists? I mean some thing like this:

Fortificaions:
Bunker 75pt
3 sections of barricade

or

Bunker 75pt
coms relay
1 section of barricade


All both options are the same as a bunker and make better use of both the points and the VT's shrouding.

For a bit more you could do a Bunker and a voidsheild at 80pts. I am just curious or has the Bastion just been habit?

Barricades are 10-pts each so the above 2 configurations should be 85-pts unless you take out 1 barricade each.

I believe the main reason why most people don't run a bunker is because they don't own the Stronghold Assault book. Bastion is included in the main book and so everyone can run it. Personally, I like the bastion because it is taller and thus is able to act as a LOS-blocker for my flyrants (or even the dimachaeron if I need). Unfortunately, I don't believe the bunker can do that.

 SHUPPET wrote:

 Iechine wrote:
Had a game against a high school kid whos been making the rounds wiping the floor with everyone at the store today with my tournament list. He brought an unbound 1850 Tau list, with 3 riptides/longstrike tank/3x large missile side unit/pathfinders/fire warriors/deep striking crisis suits.

I went first and all 4 tyrants took out a missileside unit, so 3 sides and 6 drones took 960pts worth of shooting. However after that it was all a breeze. He had good target priority but he definitely thought Id go after his Riptides, which I never took a shot at the entire game. They were basically all that was left besides a few broadsides that were tarpitted by my 30 gargoyle squad. I simply outplayed him, but I think he learned a lot and that MSU can be tricky to deal with. I ended the game at turn 4 losing only 1 Flyrant/carnifex and many Gargoyles. I commend the dude for having a good attitude the entire time though, I think he learned a lot.

It didnt help me practice too much though for the tourney, hopefully the wife and I can play her Serpent spam list tomorrow.

For anyone else reading, this is exactly how you play against Tau (regardless of your own list). Riptides are going to be amazingly cost effective no matter what, allowing them to make their points back even FURTHER in shots absorbed with their crazy about of tank and range dictation for a <200 pt model is just making them an even better investment for the Tau player. You are best off just ignoring them and focusing on taking out Pathfinders > Broadsides > Crisis suits, often in that order (but prioritize as needed), as shooting at these models takes a lot more firepower off the board per shot than shooting at a Riptide does (by a big margin). You won't win every game against a good Tau list doing this because they are just that good, but I don't think you'll win any if you focus Riptides first, giving the other 1300 pts of their army unwatered down shooting for at least the first 2 turns of the game. Hit hard and fast and aim to damage some of the lighter units, Riptides can't win a game by themselves and it's a matter of time before they get bogged down in CC with something (pretty much any unit in our dex will do just fine, even trooptax Terms!).

You may have outplayed him after that but you got super lucky with the Flyrants.

48 shots would have scored you 35 wounds which would have statistically resulted in 5-6 wounds taken. Out of 3 large broadside units, that would have only been 1 unit out of 3 taken down!

Unless you are using something other than devourers?

 Wilson wrote:

 SHUPPET wrote:

 Iechine wrote:
Had a game against a high school kid whos been making the rounds wiping the floor with everyone at the store today with my tournament list. He brought an unbound 1850 Tau list, with 3 riptides/longstrike tank/3x large missile side unit/pathfinders/fire warriors/deep striking crisis suits.

I went first and all 4 tyrants took out a missileside unit, so 3 sides and 6 drones took 960pts worth of shooting. However after that it was all a breeze. He had good target priority but he definitely thought Id go after his Riptides, which I never took a shot at the entire game. They were basically all that was left besides a few broadsides that were tarpitted by my 30 gargoyle squad. I simply outplayed him, but I think he learned a lot and that MSU can be tricky to deal with. I ended the game at turn 4 losing only 1 Flyrant/carnifex and many Gargoyles. I commend the dude for having a good attitude the entire time though, I think he learned a lot.

It didnt help me practice too much though for the tourney, hopefully the wife and I can play her Serpent spam list tomorrow.

For anyone else reading, this is exactly how you play against Tau (regardless of your own list). Riptides are going to be amazingly cost effective no matter what, allowing them to make their points back even FURTHER in shots absorbed with their crazy about of tank and range dictation for a <200 pt model is just making them an even better investment for the Tau player. You are best off just ignoring them and focusing on taking out Pathfinders > Broadsides > Crisis suits, often in that order (but prioritize as needed), as shooting at these models takes a lot more firepower off the board per shot than shooting at a Riptide does (by a big margin). You won't win every game against a good Tau list doing this because they are just that good, but I don't think you'll win any if you focus Riptides first, giving the other 1300 pts of their army unwatered down shooting for at least the first 2 turns of the game. Hit hard and fast and aim to damage some of the lighter units, Riptides can't win a game by themselves and it's a matter of time before they get bogged down in CC with something (pretty much any unit in our dex will do just fine, even trooptax Terms!).

You may have outplayed him after that but you got super lucky with the Flyrants.

48 shots would have scored you 35 wounds which would have statistically resulted in 5-6 wounds taken. Out of 3 large broadside units, that would have only been 1 unit out of 3 taken down!

Unless you are using something other than devourers?

He took out one unit of broadsides which is 6 wounds. Which is right on target with your average. He even mentions at the end of the post how one of the only surviving units at the end of the 4th turn was a tarpitted unit of broadsides. I'm assuming he removed the third unit at some other point in the game. Probably on the second or third turns...

 bocatt wrote:

 Wilson wrote:

 SHUPPET wrote:

 Iechine wrote:
Had a game against a high school kid whos been making the rounds wiping the floor with everyone at the store today with my tournament list. He brought an unbound 1850 Tau list, with 3 riptides/longstrike tank/3x large missile side unit/pathfinders/fire warriors/deep striking crisis suits.

I went first and all 4 tyrants took out a missileside unit, so 3 sides and 6 drones took 960pts worth of shooting. However after that it was all a breeze. He had good target priority but he definitely thought Id go after his Riptides, which I never took a shot at the entire game. They were basically all that was left besides a few broadsides that were tarpitted by my 30 gargoyle squad. I simply outplayed him, but I think he learned a lot and that MSU can be tricky to deal with. I ended the game at turn 4 losing only 1 Flyrant/carnifex and many Gargoyles. I commend the dude for having a good attitude the entire time though, I think he learned a lot.

It didnt help me practice too much though for the tourney, hopefully the wife and I can play her Serpent spam list tomorrow.

For anyone else reading, this is exactly how you play against Tau (regardless of your own list). Riptides are going to be amazingly cost effective no matter what, allowing them to make their points back even FURTHER in shots absorbed with their crazy about of tank and range dictation for a <200 pt model is just making them an even better investment for the Tau player. You are best off just ignoring them and focusing on taking out Pathfinders > Broadsides > Crisis suits, often in that order (but prioritize as needed), as shooting at these models takes a lot more firepower off the board per shot than shooting at a Riptide does (by a big margin). You won't win every game against a good Tau list doing this because they are just that good, but I don't think you'll win any if you focus Riptides first, giving the other 1300 pts of their army unwatered down shooting for at least the first 2 turns of the game. Hit hard and fast and aim to damage some of the lighter units, Riptides can't win a game by themselves and it's a matter of time before they get bogged down in CC with something (pretty much any unit in our dex will do just fine, even trooptax Terms!).

You may have outplayed him after that but you got super lucky with the Flyrants.

48 shots would have scored you 35 wounds which would have statistically resulted in 5-6 wounds taken. Out of 3 large broadside units, that would have only been 1 unit out of 3 taken down!

Unless you are using something other than devourers?

He took out one unit of broadsides which is 6 wounds. Which is right on target with your average. He even mentions at the end of the post how one of the only surviving units at the end of the 4th turn was a tarpitted unit of broadsides. I'm assuming he removed the third unit at some other point in the game. Probably on the second or third turns...

Oh that's my bad, miss read the post. Apologies!

Heya Dakka,

first-time poster, but long-time lurker here. This thread is pure gold, so many experienced Tyranid coaches here. I do appreciate all your insights.

To business: in november my gaming club is going to organise its annual 40K tournament. Unlike most other tournies here, they've been brave and have allowed basically everything.
Which means:
* 1750 points
* Multiple CAD allowed
* Forge World allowed
* Dataslates allowed

This tournament usually attracts about 40 people.
The only restriction is that people cannot proxy Forge World models and that they need to be able to provide the rules for any dataslates in their list, which is only fair.

Now, given such an environment, how would you construct your list?
I'm particularly interested in your opinion whether I should include my Barbed Hierodule or not. On the one hand it's a good chunk of my 1750 points gone, on the other hand maybe I need it to tackle Imperial Knights/Riptides/Wraithknights?

My first try - with Hierodule - would be something like

Primary Detachment (CAD)
-------------------------------------------
Flyrant, 2x devourer, ESG
Flyrant, 2x devourer, ESG

3 Ripper Swarms, DS
3 Ripper Swarms, DS

Malanthrope

Barbed Hierodule

Living Artillery Formation
---------------------------------
3 x Warriors (1 BS)
3 x Biovore
Exocrine

which comes to 1610 points, giving me some more options.

Now my questions:
* Do you think the Hierodule is needed in this format? If not, what would you suggest to handle IK/Riptipe/WK?
* I don't really have the models to go full Skyblight, but do have a Hive Crone available. Worth including?
* If you have other remarks as far as possible lists go, I'm open for them. Model-wise, I have most things, but from Forge World I only have the Hierodule atm (but will probably order the Malanthrope before the tourny).

thanks!

tag8833 wrote:

No skyfire bursttides I assume. Skyfire bursttides, and skyrays are what demolishes tyranids, a tau list without them is pretty manageable, though I understand how it would be annihilating other players. No buffmander either I take it.

Polkadragon wrote:
Heya Dakka,

first-time poster, but long-time lurker here. This thread is pure gold, so many experienced Tyranid coaches here. I do appreciate all your insights.

Spoiler:

To business: in november my gaming club is going to organise its annual 40K tournament. Unlike most other tournies here, they've been brave and have allowed basically everything.
Which means:
* 1750 points
* Multiple CAD allowed
* Forge World allowed
* Dataslates allowed

This tournament usually attracts about 40 people.
The only restriction is that people cannot proxy Forge World models and that they need to be able to provide the rules for any dataslates in their list, which is only fair.

Now, given such an environment, how would you construct your list?
I'm particularly interested in your opinion whether I should include my Barbed Hierodule or not. On the one hand it's a good chunk of my 1750 points gone, on the other hand maybe I need it to tackle Imperial Knights/Riptides/Wraithknights?

My first try - with Hierodule - would be something like

Primary Detachment (CAD)
-------------------------------------------
Flyrant, 2x devourer, ESG
Flyrant, 2x devourer, ESG

3 Ripper Swarms, DS
3 Ripper Swarms, DS

Malanthrope

Barbed Hierodule

Living Artillery Formation
---------------------------------
3 x Warriors (1 BS)
3 x Biovore
Exocrine

which comes to 1610 points, giving me some more options.

Now my questions:
* Do you think the Hierodule is needed in this format? If not, what would you suggest to handle IK/Riptipe/WK?
* I don't really have the models to go full Skyblight, but do have a Hive Crone available. Worth including?
* If you have other remarks as far as possible lists go, I'm open for them. Model-wise, I have most things, but from Forge World I only have the Hierodule atm (but will probably order the Malanthrope before the tourny).

thanks!

Hey Polkadragon! Welcome to dakka. Always great to see a new face.

Yes, the Barbed Hierodule definitely has a place in a tournament Tyranid army. I have a friend who took his Barbed list to a tournament (of also about 40 players). He brought something like this:

3x Flyrants (self-allied)
Malanthrope
Zoanthrope
3x3 Rippers - Deepstrike
Dimachaeron
Barbed Hierodule

He did very well. He beat my very powerful Necrons in a practice game, thanks to a Stomp from Barbie which took down 2 of my bargelords!!! He then took that list to a tournament and ended up taking 2nd Overall, only losing to Tau in the championship game.

For your remaining points, I would recommend you get a Mawloc. You have exactly enough points to fit him into your list.

Good luck and happy hunting. Nom nom nom.....

You know, I hate to say it even though it does have great irony, but for a horde army, our greatest strengths lie in bringing as few models as possible. Things like our Lords of War, Flyrants, Dimas, etc are so expensive but just so much of a force multiplier to our army lists that they justify their cost far more than expected, even with the inherent issues in each unit.

Force multiplier? I don't think that's the right word to describe any of the models you listed. On top of that, even if they are allowed most our LoW are worse than codex models for the most part, with the exceptions being Harridan and Hierophant. Flyrants are good, but the Dima is bottom 3 garbage. While I agree that staying away from the griblies is definitely the way to go, cramming in as many MCs is very important, Carnifexes Exocrines Mawlocs all fairly cheap MCs and all very good. I think this gimmick of taking 4 Flyrants falls apart as soon as you come across an army with a decent amount of firepower, unlike something a bit more balanced with far less reliance on 16 T6 wounds that cost over 1000 pts all. You don't want as little models as possible, you just don't want any of the infantry crap for the most part, just because they are bad models in general. If we had decent infantry like other armies it would be a different matter, as is you pretty much just want all the good models in the dex which all happen to be expensive MCs, making us a fairly low model count army, but you don't want to aim to make it lower just because there is models that will let you. It's inherently never going to help you, and isn't at all necessary, and is generally only ok when the model is worthy it. Which Hierodules and Dimaechaerons and Swarmlords etc are not. Max Flyrants is the most justifiable, but it's a gimmick no less than any flyer spam is and as such has easy counters, even if you may not see them all that often. 4 Flyrants is gonna win a lot of games but so is a more balanced list, and not as easy to counter. Flyrant spam just seems gimmicky and lazy building to me.

But honestly, ask anyone what is the best tyranid unit.
Pretty sure the concensus will be the flyrant so why would you NOT take 4 of them if you are aiming for competitive builds ?

 jy2 wrote:

Polkadragon wrote:
Heya Dakka,

first-time poster, but long-time lurker here. This thread is pure gold, so many experienced Tyranid coaches here. I do appreciate all your insights.

Spoiler:

To business: in november my gaming club is going to organise its annual 40K tournament. Unlike most other tournies here, they've been brave and have allowed basically everything.
Which means:
* 1750 points
* Multiple CAD allowed
* Forge World allowed
* Dataslates allowed

This tournament usually attracts about 40 people.
The only restriction is that people cannot proxy Forge World models and that they need to be able to provide the rules for any dataslates in their list, which is only fair.

Now, given such an environment, how would you construct your list?
I'm particularly interested in your opinion whether I should include my Barbed Hierodule or not. On the one hand it's a good chunk of my 1750 points gone, on the other hand maybe I need it to tackle Imperial Knights/Riptides/Wraithknights?

My first try - with Hierodule - would be something like

Primary Detachment (CAD)
-------------------------------------------
Flyrant, 2x devourer, ESG
Flyrant, 2x devourer, ESG

3 Ripper Swarms, DS
3 Ripper Swarms, DS

Malanthrope

Barbed Hierodule

Living Artillery Formation
---------------------------------
3 x Warriors (1 BS)
3 x Biovore
Exocrine

which comes to 1610 points, giving me some more options.

Now my questions:
* Do you think the Hierodule is needed in this format? If not, what would you suggest to handle IK/Riptipe/WK?
* I don't really have the models to go full Skyblight, but do have a Hive Crone available. Worth including?
* If you have other remarks as far as possible lists go, I'm open for them. Model-wise, I have most things, but from Forge World I only have the Hierodule atm (but will probably order the Malanthrope before the tourny).

thanks!

Hey Polkadragon! Welcome to dakka. Always great to see a new face.

Yes, the Barbed Hierodule definitely has a place in a tournament Tyranid army. I have a friend who took his Barbed list to a tournament (of also about 40 players). He brought something like this:

3x Flyrants (self-allied)
Malanthrope
Zoanthrope
3x3 Rippers - Deepstrike
Dimachaeron
Barbed Hierodule

He did very well. He beat my very powerful Necrons in a practice game, thanks to a Stomp from Barbie which took down 2 of my bargelords!!! He then took that list to a tournament and ended up taking 2nd Overall, only losing to Tau in the championship game.

For your remaining points, I would recommend you get a Mawloc. You have exactly enough points to fit him into your list.
Good luck and happy hunting. Nom nom nom.....

Thanks jy2, I appreciate the insight, adding a Mawloc makes sense and might help against those pesky Tau as well

Do you feel the rest of the army synergises properly with the Hierodule? In particular, the Living Artillery? Or would you suggest to take other units to maximize the impact of the Hierodule?

 cyberjonesy wrote:
But honestly, ask anyone what is the best tyranid unit.
Pretty sure the concensus will be the flyrant so why would you NOT take 4 of them if you are aiming for competitive builds ?

I would say the Carnifex.

The reason for not taking 4 isn't because it's not the best unit however, it's for all the reasons I stated in my post. That's why. BEst unit or not it's a unit with obvious weaknesses and while it's up to you whether or not you want to double down on this weakness, possibly spreading their AA too thin, there will be situations where you just crumple. Also, even if I bring a list far stronger in every way, many people will rather not fight Flyer spam of any sort as hitting on 6s most people hate. This is less relevant, buttoning dual CAD to spam flyers is never going to win you any friends and I enjoy having a strong competitive list that people strive to beat and will happily play at weekend house games, rather than a flyer spam list that they either have AA to counter with or do not.

Four flyrant lists should only ever be taken against competitive builds. It's nothing I would ever take to the FLGS for pickup games.

 SHUPPET wrote:
This is less relevant, buttoning dual CAD to spam flyers is never going to win you any games....

What?

That makes no sense at all. It's like saying spamming wave serpents in an Eldar army is never going to win you any games....



Automatically Appended Next Post:

Polkadragon wrote:

Thanks jy2, I appreciate the insight, adding a Mawloc makes sense and might help against those pesky Tau as well

Do you feel the rest of the army synergises properly with the Hierodule? In particular, the Living Artillery? Or would you suggest to take other units to maximize the impact of the Hierodule?

You're welcome.

Yes, they synergize together. Both are shooty units that can also threaten the enemy in assault. Just make sure to advance your Living Artillery (at least the exocrine and warriors) along with Barbie to present a unified threat and to take some of the heat off of Barbie and the Malanthrope.

Another unit I would consider would be gargoyles to act as a screening unit and to try to pin the enemy down for Barbie to try to stomp on. You can't lose with a mawloc or gargoyles in almost any Tyranid list.

 jy2 wrote:

 SHUPPET wrote:
This is less relevant, buttoning dual CAD to spam flyers is never going to win you any games....

What?

That makes no sense at all. It's like saying spamming wave serpents in an Eldar army is never going to win you any games....

Whoops it was meant to say friends. I said it DOES win you games, but nobody is going to be like hey I love playing against Flyer spam its the most fun thing in the world, we should catch up for a beer or two on the weekend and do it again. Just doesn't really promote a friendly attitude and it's not even really a better list than other ones, it's just the easiest to play

 SHUPPET wrote:

 jy2 wrote:

 SHUPPET wrote:
This is less relevant, buttoning dual CAD to spam flyers is never going to win you any games....

What?

That makes no sense at all. It's like saying spamming wave serpents in an Eldar army is never going to win you any games....

Whoops it was meant to say friends. I said it DOES win you games, but nobody is going to be like hey I love playing against Flyer spam its the most fun thing in the world, we should catch up for a beer or two on the weekend and do it again. Just doesn't really promote a friendly attitude and it's not even really a better list than other ones, it's just the easiest to play

This is something that I worry about quite a bit. I'm one of the more competitive players in my local meta, and it is fairly easy for me to run flying circus and stomp any given opponent. In fact, there are several opponents where I feel like Dakkafexes leave them with feel-badsies. Building a tyranid list to let your opponent have a great time even when you beat them badly is quite a different skill from building a list that beats people.

I feel like I could write a whole tactica on winning while your opponent has a blast, but suffice to say, I think this is an important part of 40k that often gets overlooked online, and I understand completely the aversion to FMC spam.

You should write thgat Tactica tag. Having a friendly game without compromising the strength of your army should be promoted a lot more than it is. Especially since the easiest cheesiest build is not always the best well rounded build in the dex, i think this flyrant thing is a perfect example of that.

There is some competitive players in my local, some more casual ones, my Living Artillery nids has its rep as "Nids to beat" and some of the less competitive players love to build to beat me and try steal a game. It's a lot of fun for everyone, and the fact that I have a balanced list it's not as easy for them to counter by just bringing skyfire and counter-flyers of their own or whatever else and just turning the games into an arms race... they have to stop and think about its capabilities and improve. I'm not the only player who does a similar thing. And I'm confident my list would beat 4 Flyrants in a match up anyway, although I haven't been able to test. But yeah fun ness !

So can you make a competitive Tyranid horde army? A horde would be fun to play against. I think the reason we don't see hear about them that much is three reasons:

1. Moving 100+ models take too long to play.
2. They are overly reliant on synapse.
3. They have little offensive power.

Has anyone done well at tournament with a horde?

Honestly one of the major problems with a horde list is time... You just cant move that many models quickly enough

Actually, the #1 reason that neither of you mentioned, is that you practically fold to any list with a couple of transports and a walker. AT is the weakest aspect of the Tyranid codex. It's almost critical you take what you can get, be it eGrubs, Carnifexes, even Harpies for some, Termagants are hard to justify in a sensible list, and even less so when you are forced to make them less points effecient by giving them AG just so they can hopefully glance AV10 rear armour to death in 2 turns, assuming enough make it to combat with something that moves at double it's speed, without taking too much losses.

Horde armies seem really hard to make playable.

Which page for tactic against grey knight?

I just had been wipe out by single grey knight model!!!

 SHUPPET wrote:
Actually, the #1 reason that neither of you mentioned, is that you practically fold to any list with a couple of transports and a walker. AT is the weakest aspect of the Tyranid codex. It's almost critical you take what you can get, be it eGrubs, Carnifexes, even Harpies for some, Termagants are hard to justify in a sensible list, and even less so when you are forced to make them less points effecient by giving them AG just so they can hopefully glance AV10 rear armour to death in 2 turns, assuming enough make it to combat with something that moves at double it's speed, without taking too much losses.

Horde armies seem really hard to make playable.

I do play horde nids in tournies, as my only fully painted army dates back to 3rd, and yeah high mech lists are hard. I find an exocrine, Screamer-killer and basic dakkafex have to be there to make dents in the armor. 6th made them work because troops had to disembark to claim objectives. 7th with OS Landraiders, Rhinos, and pods is making the game much harder on the gribby horde again.

 cyberjonesy wrote:
But honestly, ask anyone what is the best tyranid unit.
Pretty sure the concensus will be the flyrant so why would you NOT take 4 of them if you are aiming for competitive builds ?

Purely personal opinion, but I'd personally avoid taking four just because of the "all of your eggs in one basket" nature of such a list. Putting the bulk of your resources into four models leaves you extremely vulnerable to poor dice and suffers a huge hit if one or two goes down early. Basically, if the Tyrants underperform at all the rest of your army is going to be too insignificant to really pick up the slack. The second major problem is that it leaves one vulnerable to MSU objective secured spam lists, as little over half of your army is effectively non-scoring (due to being in the air for survivability) and isn't as able to cover as many objectives by virtue of lower body count.

In contrast, a list with 1-2 Flyrants and an assortment of other (cheaper) monsters as SHUPPET mentioned or a mix of monsters and gribblies is a bit more balanced as you aren't relying on the Tyrants to shoulder all of the burden and you have more physical board control. Of course, it does depend heavily on match-up, four flyrants will do significantly better against multiple Knights for instance...

 SHUPPET wrote:

 Unyielding Hunger wrote:
You know, I hate to say it even though it does have great irony, but for a horde army, our greatest strengths lie in bringing as few models as possible. Things like our Lords of War, Flyrants, Dimas, etc are so expensive but just so much of a force multiplier to our army lists that they justify their cost far more than expected, even with the inherent issues in each unit.

Force multiplier? I don't think that's the right word to describe any of the models you listed.

I think the term he was looking for was "generalists", which basically means a unit that can effectively deal with just about anything thrown against it regardless of type. The Flyrant is arguably one of the best examples as it can literally deal with every target type with the standard load-out, but there are others (and pretty much every highly competitive unit is one). The main defining trait of a true "generalist" though is that it can take on stuff either as efficiently as or nearly as efficiently as a more specialized unit, meaning they are ultimately more cost effective than their points would otherwise indicate as they will rarely (if ever) be in a situation where they are rendered completely ineffective.

Not to be confused with a unit that can be used against with targets beyond their specialization, such as a Tactical Sqaud with a Las Cannon. While the Las Cannon does give them the option of attacking tanks, it doesn't make them a generalist by this definition as there is a notable opportunity cost in using the weapon (i.e. the anti-infantry capabilities of the bolt-guns). A true generalist will generally have minimal opportunity cost beyond immediate target priority needs.

 SHUPPET wrote:
You don't want as little models as possible, you just don't want any of the infantry crap for the most part, just because they are bad models in general. If we had decent infantry like other armies it would be a different matter, as is you pretty much just want all the good models in the dex which all happen to be expensive MCs.

I'm not entirely sure I'd agree. Apart from the unfortunately overpriced genestealers I think our infantry aren't really bad per say, just they aren't generalists. Monstrous Creatures are closer to being true generalists (smash nerf reduced this a bit) which allows them to be more efficient offensively as they can cover a wider range of target types. Defensively though, I have generally found gaunts and even Warriors significantly better, as they have an inherently larger wound pool that can be combined with the same defensive tricks available to monsters (FNP, Spore Cloud). My lists generally include at least 60 to 90 odd gaunts for their bullet sponge properties, as they take torrent fire much better than my poor monsters and function as assault grenades for more important units.

Just one a malinthrope on Ebay. Now just to get IA4 second edition. Does anyone have one they don't want or know of an in the US store that has them?

To be fair, the scans of their rules are available unless you just want to blow a lot of money for 1-2 pages of rules. (I didnt)

Running 4 flyrants is kind of the opposite of putting all of your eggs in one basket.

 gigasnail wrote:
Running 4 flyrants is kind of the opposite of putting all of your eggs in one basket.

960 points of Flyrants isn't all your eggs in one basket? That's usually over half of your list in 24 3+ save flying wounds.

 Sinful Hero wrote:

 gigasnail wrote:
Running 4 flyrants is kind of the opposite of putting all of your eggs in one basket.

960 points of Flyrants isn't all your eggs in one basket? That's usually over half of your list in 24 3+ save flying wounds.

More like 16 (only 4W IIRC) but yes, it is very dangerous. Three at most IMO.

With four, it's unlikely you'll get decent ground support to take and hold objectives unless you land the Flyrants...why would you want to do that mid game?

 Frozocrone wrote:

 Sinful Hero wrote:

 gigasnail wrote:
Running 4 flyrants is kind of the opposite of putting all of your eggs in one basket.

960 points of Flyrants isn't all your eggs in one basket? That's usually over half of your list in 24 3+ save flying wounds.

More like 16 (only 4W IIRC) but yes, it is very dangerous. Three at most IMO.

With four, it's unlikely you'll get decent ground support to take and hold objectives unless you land the Flyrants...why would you want to do that mid game?

You have to ask yourself what you'll be playing however. Is it maelstrom? Eternal war? If it's the latter, everyone can agree that flyrants are the bees knees (except maybe Shuppet). A highly mobile gun platform (with haywire probably) that is also much more durable due to the new nature of grounding checks. You can focus a TON of firepower at it and it can jink if it cares. This does reduce its offensive output substantially, but it is very hard to kill if you don't want it to die. I am actually just about to start experimenting with 4, as I've just recently gotten the last one ready to go. However, I have to say that they are the DEFINITION of force multipliers. The psychic powers alone are exactly that - they make the units around them better. Plus synapse of course, which you won't get from fexes. If you're worried about ground support, is it on the offensive end or the defensive end? For defense/scoring, I love rippers. For offense, we have the Mawloc, Dakkafex, Shrikes/Raveners, the Dimachaeron if Forge World is ok. I'm working on a variation of Iechine's quad flyrant list that uses the Dima, 4 DS ripper squads, a malanthrope, a mawloc and 4 flyrants. Haven't put it all together on the table yet, but I can't imagine that it's not brutal. I bring a bastion for near-immunity to first blood (most of the time my opponent has no interest in going first).

In short, the best reason why 4 flyrants isn't putting all your eggs in one basket is because they can do just about everything. The only thing they're not great against is high toughness models like a wraithknight, and even then I've put down 2 in a single game just with volume of fire (with only 3 flyrants mind you). They have anti-armor, volume of fire, decently high strength, good durability and excellent mobility. What more could you ask for? Well maybe the freedom to assault whenever haha, but that would be pretty broken. Finally, especially in a tournament/TAC setting, as jy2 has mentioned on numerous occasions, a list like that is a pretty hard counter to many TAC lists, but it itself is TAC. So you can do well against most tournament armies because they simply don't bring that much AA, but you're just loving life shooting at ground or air targets as you please.

tag8833 wrote:

 SHUPPET wrote:

 jy2 wrote:

 SHUPPET wrote:
This is less relevant, buttoning dual CAD to spam flyers is never going to win you any games....

What?

That makes no sense at all. It's like saying spamming wave serpents in an Eldar army is never going to win you any games....

Whoops it was meant to say friends. I said it DOES win you games, but nobody is going to be like hey I love playing against Flyer spam its the most fun thing in the world, we should catch up for a beer or two on the weekend and do it again. Just doesn't really promote a friendly attitude and it's not even really a better list than other ones, it's just the easiest to play

This is something that I worry about quite a bit. I'm one of the more competitive players in my local meta, and it is fairly easy for me to run flying circus and stomp any given opponent. In fact, there are several opponents where I feel like Dakkafexes leave them with feel-badsies. Building a tyranid list to let your opponent have a great time even when you beat them badly is quite a different skill from building a list that beats people.

I feel like I could write a whole tactica on winning while your opponent has a blast, but suffice to say, I think this is an important part of 40k that often gets overlooked online, and I understand completely the aversion to FMC spam.

I don't see much of an issue. I normally bring at least 2 lists. Before we play, I usually ask my opponent if he wants to play competitively or is he more of a casual player. (Actually, I already know the competitive-level of the players at my LGS so there really isn't a need for me to ask anymore). Usually, I'd only bring out trip-flyrants against other players practicing their tournament lists and I almost always never run double-FOC (quad-flyrants) unless it was a competitive game planned in advance. But if it's against a stranger whom I've never played against, I usually ask (and then I still might run a casual list even if they tell me that they are competitive).





Automatically Appended Next Post:

Solidcrash wrote:
Which page for tactic against grey knight?

I just had been wipe out by single grey knight model!!!

Currently, our my elitist "Nidzilla" builds don't really matchup up well against the grey knights. That is because force weapons do bad things to our bugs. However, the knights will potentially have problems with our flyrants as well as with our horde builds. In any case, here are a few suggestions:

1. Target priority. Generally, try to pick off the units that you can more efficiently kill. For those you can't, use other methods such as screening and tarpitting.

2. Gang up on the unit. Do not direct your offense all over the place. If you can, try to focus down on 1 unit. Instead of putting 2W on 2 different dreadknights, just kill that 1 dreadknight instead.

3. Screen out. For some of the more dangerous units, if you can, screen them out. That's what your gribblies are for.

4. Tarpit. If you've brought a horde (or semi-horde list), your horde is always a threat to tarpit his units. If you can, then do so.

5. Play the Mission! While it may be fun to go for the kill, the Hive Mind is more evolved than that. Always keep in mind what your missions objectives are and don't get carried away with just killing stuff (unless that is the mission objective).





Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Sinful Hero wrote:

 gigasnail wrote:
Running 4 flyrants is kind of the opposite of putting all of your eggs in one basket.

960 points of Flyrants isn't all your eggs in one basket? That's usually over half of your list in 24 3+ save flying wounds.

Daemon FMC-spam has about 5 FMC's and that's about 1600-1700 pts! Yeah, it may not be the most balanced of lists, but it can and will still do well because it is still one of the more competitive Tyranid lists. Why? Because it is also a great TAC list and is very highly flexible. Any army that tailors to FMC Tyranids/Daemons will have a hard time against other TAC builds in a competitive environment (i.e. tournaments). That is why FMC Daemons still do well in tournaments and that is why quad-flyrants will do well in tournaments - in a tournament, you are forced to bring a TAC list and tailoring to any specific build will not end well for that army.