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2015/01/15 04:31:24
Subject: Re:The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (Tyranid Update List p.240)
Wilson wrote: I think we're better off when self allying isn't allowed as it prevents much more naughty spam in other armies.
I can think of exactly one example of this. Necrons spamming Annihilation barges, aka the most undercosted unit in all of 40k. Every other army has a pretty good ability to spam their scary stuff without a self ally.
>.> looking at you Jy2. 3 CCBs and 4 Annibarges?? Don't think your fellow bug lovers don't know what you're up to
It's probably the last time I can run them anyways. Who knows what the new Necron codex, coming out later this month, will bring? I'll probably have to start from scratch with them in a couple of weeks.
As for self-allies, it's looking like its getting less and less necessary, just as dual-CAD is becoming less and less of an issue. All the new codices coming out have basically been able to let you run very similar to dual-CAD builds in basically a CAD + Detachment format. With Necrons, if you really wanted, you can run 6 Annibarges by going CAD + Mephrit. Tyranids have CAD + Leviathan. In probably a few more months, self-allying probably won't even be necessary anymore.
I'm not a tourny player, but is the current norm for tournies to ban a CAD+CAD while being ok with a CAD+Levithan approuch?
First of all, let me give you a little history about the current format.
BAO was the 1st major GT to run the new 7th Edition rules. Back then, there was no detachments like they have now. The only concern was dual-CAD. As such, it was easy to remedy. Just ban dual-CAD and ally for self-allies for those armies that can't ally and don't have formations.
Fast forward 8-9 months later and a lot has changed. There's been about 7-8 new army updates coming out ever since and each can take a special detachment which is basically similar to another CAD. There is also a lot of formations to come out since then.
Now, the tournament standards have changed. Now, most major tournaments are like this - maximum of 2 detachments with a limit of 0-1 on each. You have:
You can run any of the 2 combos above. You just can't run more than 2 of them because of the 0-1 limit. Thus, you can run CAD + Leviathan, but you can't run dual-CAD or dual-Leviathan detachments. You can't run 2 Skyblight formations or 2 Living Artillery formations, but you can run Skyblight + LAN. Basically, each detachment needs to be unique and you can only run 2 detachments. That is the only requirement nowadays.
So it's been a while since we discussed 'NIds-Daemons lists (DaemBugs is my favored term), and I can't get the ideas outta my head. I know a lot of tourneys don't allow CtA allies, but well maybe one can hope. They are my two favorite armies so it seems natural to want to run the two together. I also can't imagine two forces who really wouldn't give less of a damn who they fight with one way or the other. As such, I like it. I've been running one list with two Flyrants, Fatey, ScreamerStar, and 16 Hounds + Khorne Herald (list here) to decent success. 4-0 so far, not against top-tier lists, but respectable ones nonetheless. I've been trying to work a 3rd Flyrant in the list (cause why not?) and I posted it to the Army List forum. It was thoroughly trounced, not without reason, by one very vocal critic. I am hoping to bring it to the knowledgeable and helpful people of the Tyranid thread for a second opinion. New thread is here for those interested in the critique. Without further adieu, here is the DaemoBug list that I think could be strong:
Wilson wrote: I think we're better off when self allying isn't allowed as it prevents much more naughty spam in other armies.
I can think of exactly one example of this. Necrons spamming Annihilation barges, aka the most undercosted unit in all of 40k. Every other army has a pretty good ability to spam their scary stuff without a self ally.
>.> looking at you Jy2. 3 CCBs and 4 Annibarges?? Don't think your fellow bug lovers don't know what you're up to
It's probably the last time I can run them anyways. Who knows what the new Necron codex, coming out later this month, will bring? I'll probably have to start from scratch with them in a couple of weeks.
As for self-allies, it's looking like its getting less and less necessary, just as dual-CAD is becoming less and less of an issue. All the new codices coming out have basically been able to let you run very similar to dual-CAD builds in basically a CAD + Detachment format. With Necrons, if you really wanted, you can run 6 Annibarges by going CAD + Mephrit. Tyranids have CAD + Leviathan. In probably a few more months, self-allying probably won't even be necessary anymore.
I'm not a tourny player, but is the current norm for tournies to ban a CAD+CAD while being ok with a CAD+Levithan approuch?
First of all, let me give you a little history about the current format.
BAO was the 1st major GT to run the new 7th Edition rules. Back then, there was no detachments like they have now. The only concern was dual-CAD. As such, it was easy to remedy. Just ban dual-CAD and ally for self-allies for those armies that can't ally and don't have formations.
Fast forward 8-9 months later and a lot has changed. There's been about 7-8 new army updates coming out ever since and each can take a special detachment which is basically similar to another CAD. There is also a lot of formations to come out since then.
Now, the tournament standards have changed. Now, most major tournaments are like this - maximum of 2 detachments with a limit of 0-1 on each. You have:
You can run any of the 2 combos above. You just can't run more than 2 of them because of the 0-1 limit. Thus, you can run CAD + Leviathan, but you can't run dual-CAD or dual-Leviathan detachments. You can't run 2 Skyblight formations or 2 Living Artillery formations, but you can run Skyblight + LAN. Basically, each detachment needs to be unique and you can only run 2 detachments. That is the only requirement nowadays.
seems kinda stupid. the end result is they're screwing the armies that don't have unique detachments yet,
Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two
2015/01/15 06:14:51
Subject: The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (Tyranid Update List p.240)
Well when it was implemented they were just trying to level the playing field for armies that didn't have supplements or formations to pseudo self ally, as I understand it. The first CAD-like detachments came out with the SW release (and maybe orks?), but the abuses weren't really as obvious until the Dark Eldar release, and to a greater extent, Tyranids. Still can't say I have anything against a Pentyrant list though
"Backfield? I have no backfield."
2015/01/15 12:41:40
Subject: The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (Tyranid Update List p.240)
BrianDavion wrote: seems kinda stupid. the end result is they're screwing the armies that don't have unique detachments yet,
Stupid indeed, because they were well aware of Codex specific Detachments at the time of BAO, and initially wrote the army comp rules "0-1 CAD or Codex Specific Detachment". It wasn't until later that they retconned it so that you could take a CAD and a Codex specific detachment. I ran a tourney right after BAO, and copied their army comp rules from when a Codex Specific counted as a CAD, and had several attendees point it out to me when BAO changed to allow a codex specific alongside a CAD, and I updated our army Comp Rules to match. I didn't believe it, because it opened the door to spammier lists, and the stated reason to restrict the number of CADs was to reduce spam and promote fun games, and that logic completely falls apart with the current army comp rules. (22 Venoms, 5 Flyrants, or 3 Flyrants + 3 Crones + 3 Heldrakes)
They hinted at running an exit poll about this, but it would have made sense if they had done it with the poll about invisibility, and most likely they are going to have to have trouble selling out before they make any changes to the Army Comp that they developed at the very start of 7th edition, and that the core team seems happy with. I would like to see the results of a poll. I've run an informal one at my last Tourney. Most people think Codex specific detachments should count as a CAD and should be limited to 0-1. A few people think that there should be unlimited CADS. 0 people think that it should be 2 detachments, but allow a CAD alongside a Codex specific detachment. I would expect a poll of LVO attendees to return very similar results, and even if it didn't, I would like to see it.
Our Tourney next week is LVO format. I don't TO the march tourney (I think the TO is using Da Boyz army comp rules), but I will run a formal poll at it to decide army comp rules for the May tourney, because I'm certain we would have trouble maintaining attendance if we stuck with the LVO rules.
2015/01/15 14:55:46
Subject: Re:The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (Tyranid Update List p.240)
I have a bit of a list conundrum if anyone has advice. There is a local team tournament coming up on the 31st that I will be attending with my brother. The tournament will be at 2000 points (1000 per player) and the only composition restrictions present as of this writing are no super heavy units, models must be WYSIWYG, and all lists must be battle-forged. I suspect things will be limited to 1 detachment per player as well, but that hasn't been set in stone yet. So far, I've heard of two Blood Angel + Eldar teams, a Space Wolves + IG/AM team, and a Dark Eldar + either Inquisition or more Dark Eldar team.
Detachment 2: Iyandan (brother)
HQ: Spirit Seer with Wraithforge Stone (restores a wound to a friendly Eldar MC on a 3+)
TROOPS: 5x Dire Avengers
TROOPS: 5x Dire Avengers
DT: 1x Wave Serpent with Twin-linked Scatter Laser, Shuriken Cannon, Holofields
DT: 1x Wave Serpent with Twin-linked Scatter Laser, Shuriken Cannon, Holofields
HEAVY: 1x Wraithknight
HEAVY: 1x Wraithknight
The main thing I am unsure of with my list is the Fighter Ace and Regeneration on the Tyrant. My normal inclination is bodies over upgrades, but in this situation his survivability is highly important given the Tyrant is the only form of synapse in the list (thought admittedly this only affects the Gargoyles)... I really would like to keep the formation for the respawning objective secure gargoyles though, as I suspect the mission set will probably incorporate maelstrom missions in some manner and if nothing else they should work well with the Eldar half (blinding tarpit for Wraithknights, screen for Serpents).
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/01/15 15:07:33
2015/01/15 17:19:58
Subject: Re:The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (Tyranid Update List p.240)
astro_nomicon wrote: So it's been a while since we discussed 'NIds-Daemons lists (DaemBugs is my favored term), and I can't get the ideas outta my head. I know a lot of tourneys don't allow CtA allies, but well maybe one can hope. They are my two favorite armies so it seems natural to want to run the two together. I also can't imagine two forces who really wouldn't give less of a damn who they fight with one way or the other. As such, I like it. I've been running one list with two Flyrants, Fatey, ScreamerStar, and 16 Hounds + Khorne Herald (list here) to decent success. 4-0 so far, not against top-tier lists, but respectable ones nonetheless. I've been trying to work a 3rd Flyrant in the list (cause why not?) and I posted it to the Army List forum. It was thoroughly trounced, not without reason, by one very vocal critic. I am hoping to bring it to the knowledgeable and helpful people of the Tyranid thread for a second opinion. New thread is here for those interested in the critique. Without further adieu, here is the DaemoBug list that I think could be strong:
It's a good list, but why no malanthrope? Is it because you don't own one or is FW not allowed? If FW is allowed, then I highly recommend swapping out the Vope+Zope for the Mope. Even though you lose 1 WC, you also have 1 less KP, less of a First Blood liability and a much more resilient unit than the 2 other units combined.
Personally, If I were to do Daemonids, I'd go with a flying circus:
seems kinda stupid. the end result is they're screwing the armies that don't have unique detachments yet,
But it's the future of 40K. You can't go backwards. You need to plan for the future and this is it. At least for the armies without unique detachments yet, there is always self-allying or bringing in Imperial Knight allies (whether Come the Apocalypse or not).
5 x 10 man Veteran squads with 3 meltaguns, and Tauroxs
3 x Deathstrikes!
If you're running a flyrant-heavy list, then you've got this. Ground guards have no answers for flyers.
Strat_N8 wrote: I have a bit of a list conundrum if anyone has advice. There is a local team tournament coming up on the 31st that I will be attending with my brother. The tournament will be at 2000 points (1000 per player) and the only composition restrictions present as of this writing are no super heavy units, models must be WYSIWYG, and all lists must be battle-forged. I suspect things will be limited to 1 detachment per player as well, but that hasn't been set in stone yet. So far, I've heard of two Blood Angel + Eldar teams, a Space Wolves + IG/AM team, and a Dark Eldar + either Inquisition or more Dark Eldar team.
Detachment 2: Iyandan (brother)
HQ: Spirit Seer with Wraithforge Stone (restores a wound to a friendly Eldar MC on a 3+)
TROOPS: 5x Dire Avengers
TROOPS: 5x Dire Avengers
DT: 1x Wave Serpent with Twin-linked Scatter Laser, Shuriken Cannon, Holofields
DT: 1x Wave Serpent with Twin-linked Scatter Laser, Shuriken Cannon, Holofields
HEAVY: 1x Wraithknight
HEAVY: 1x Wraithknight
The main thing I am unsure of with my list is the Fighter Ace and Regeneration on the Tyrant. My normal inclination is bodies over upgrades, but in this situation his survivability is highly important given the Tyrant is the only form of synapse in the list (thought admittedly this only affects the Gargoyles)... I really would like to keep the formation for the respawning objective secure gargoyles though, as I suspect the mission set will probably incorporate maelstrom missions in some manner and if nothing else they should work well with the Eldar half (blinding tarpit for Wraithknights, screen for Serpents).
Honestly, I wouldn't recommend Skyblight by itself. Synapse is a big crutch in this type of list. It really falls apart once your opponent kills your flyrant and with 2K of firepower, that really isn't all that hard to do.
Want to be mean? Just run Leviathan with 3 flyrants, malanthrope + some troops and you're set.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/01/15 17:26:56
Speedy rules question for the swarm which came up in a game last night. We were discussing Hierophant upgrades and the transport option came up. Using it as an assault unit carrier was discussed and I mentioned that an interesting use for it is to carry a Venomthrope and benefit from a huge Shrouding bubble. This raised some eyebrows so we spent some time hunting for the rules that enable this to happen and came up with nothing.
Can someone point me to the right passage(s)/book(s) for this?
2015/01/15 18:09:22
Subject: The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (Tyranid Update List p.240)
Embarking
--SNIP--
If the players need to measure a range involving the embarked unit (except for its shooting), this range is measured to or from the vehicle’s hull.
My beautiful wife wrote:Trucks = Carnifex snack, Tanks = meals.
2015/01/15 19:21:20
Subject: Re:The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (Tyranid Update List p.240)
astro_nomicon wrote: So it's been a while since we discussed 'NIds-Daemons lists (DaemBugs is my favored term), and I can't get the ideas outta my head. I know a lot of tourneys don't allow CtA allies, but well maybe one can hope. They are my two favorite armies so it seems natural to want to run the two together. I also can't imagine two forces who really wouldn't give less of a damn who they fight with one way or the other. As such, I like it. I've been running one list with two Flyrants, Fatey, ScreamerStar, and 16 Hounds + Khorne Herald (list here) to decent success. 4-0 so far, not against top-tier lists, but respectable ones nonetheless. I've been trying to work a 3rd Flyrant in the list (cause why not?) and I posted it to the Army List forum. It was thoroughly trounced, not without reason, by one very vocal critic. I am hoping to bring it to the knowledgeable and helpful people of the Tyranid thread for a second opinion. New thread is here for those interested in the critique. Without further adieu, here is the DaemoBug list that I think could be strong:
It's a good list, but why no malanthrope? Is it because you don't own one or is FW not allowed? If FW is allowed, then I highly recommend swapping out the Vope+Zope for the Mope. Even though you lose 1 WC, you also have 1 less KP, less of a First Blood liability and a much more resilient unit than the 2 other units combined.
Personally, If I were to do Daemonids, I'd go with a flying circus:
Be'lakor
Lord of Change - Lvl 3, 1x Exalted, 1x Greater
3x Nurglings
3x Nurglings
Daemon Prince - Tzeentch, 3+, Wings, Lvl 2
Thanks. Yeah I do not own a malanthrope at the moment. I just started back getting my bugs into shape from 5th edition nids (hooray 50 genestealers on the shelf!) I might try my hand at converting one before too long. Can't really afford FW price tags right now. That list looks solid but it's even worse at malestrom than mine (ostensibly) and I already feel a bit shaky on that front with my list. I also have a hard time taking Tzeentch Princes over Nurgle Princes. Would you be summoning with the LoC and DP? Or are you shooting for Iron Arm/Endurance/Invis/Shrouding with the DP? I'm also not a huge fan of the Prince being ML2, and lacking rewards, but eh whacha gonna do?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/01/15 21:06:28
"Backfield? I have no backfield."
2015/01/15 20:58:43
Subject: The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (Tyranid Update List p.240)
I've run this at 2 GT's and it lost once to me being an idiot and once to abhorent dice rolls.
Flyrant - 230
Dual Devourer
Flyrant - 230
Dual Devourer
Venomthrope - 45
2xZoanthrope - 100
2x3 DS Rippers - 90
2xCrone - 310
Lord of Change - 255
Lvl 3
2x11 Horrors - 198
4 Screamers - 100
Tzeentch DP - 285
Wings, Level 3
It has lots of mobility, lots of WC and lots of summoning points. The sheer number of FMC's means you handle other FMC's/Flyers relatively well and overall it allows you to summon and dominate on Maelstrom.
That said I'm shifting to a 3 Tyrant build which drops the screamers and 1 horror unit and then changing the DS rippers into mucolids. Then seeing if I have points for a Malethrope instead of a venomthrope.
Nids with summoning support is just so good.
Best Painted (2015 Adepticon 40k Champs)
They Shall Know Fear - Adepticon 40k TT Champion (2012 & 2013) & 40k TT Best Sport (2014), 40k TT Best Tactician (2015 & 2016)
2015/01/15 21:07:24
Subject: The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (Tyranid Update List p.240)
Sinful Hero wrote: Might want to simplify those point costs- it may be a little too descriptive for dakkadakka.
But it looks like you shouldn't have too much trouble to me with 3 Flyrants.
Edited the points cost, good catch. I just copied and pasted from the list document.
What would be your target priority? I'm thinking take out the Deathstrikes before they can fire, but then I've got Pask and his Punisher to worry about.
Sinful Hero wrote: Might want to simplify those point costs- it may be a little too descriptive for dakkadakka.
But it looks like you shouldn't have too much trouble to me with 3 Flyrants.
Edited the points cost, good catch. I just copied and pasted from the list document.
What would be your target priority? I'm thinking take out the Deathstrikes before they can fire, but then I've got Pask and his Punisher to worry about.
Personally, if it shoots a template, I wouldn't worry about it until you take everything else out. Maybe take out the Tauroxes? Jy2 or ther other more experienced players could probably give you better advice on that.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/01/15 21:21:48
Sinful Hero wrote: Might want to simplify those point costs- it may be a little too descriptive for dakkadakka.
But it looks like you shouldn't have too much trouble to me with 3 Flyrants.
Edited the points cost, good catch. I just copied and pasted from the list document.
What would be your target priority? I'm thinking take out the Deathstrikes before they can fire, but then I've got Pask and his Punisher to worry about.
Personally, if it shoots a template, I wouldn't worry about it until you take everything else out. Maybe take out the Tauroxes? Jy2 or ther other more experienced players could probably give you better advice on that.
It shoots a one shot, str 10 ap1 apocalyptic blast, but it can't fire first turn, then after that it can fire on a 4+, but you get +1 to that roll for every turn it didn't move and -1 for every weapon destroyed result.
But then again opening up the Tauroxs will give my Mawlocs something to do!
I wouldn't be that worried about the Deathstrikes even if it can hit your Flyrants when they're in the air (which I'm not sure it can). It won't ID any of your big bugs except maybe the Malanthrope, and it should be getting a 2+ cover save. It'll put some hurt on the gargoyles, but just place them in cover and chain a few back to the Mope.
Pask should be your first priority. He's about the only thing that's threatening to the Flyrants. If he screws up and deploys Pask within EGrub range, you're golden. If not, you might wanna start opening up Tauroxes so your turn 2 arrivals can do work on the contents. Then go after Pask on turn 2 where you should be able to Egrub him as well as get side or rear armor.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/01/15 21:38:19
"Backfield? I have no backfield."
2015/01/15 22:53:28
Subject: Re:The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (Tyranid Update List p.240)
Sentry pylons are horrific and the fact I can't jink against them is brutal. How do I deal with them??? I'd need two turns of shooting at them with my 3 Flyrants to statistically finish them - that's mental.
But if I focus on the pylons then I'm ignoring the 15 wraiths Floating around the board.
I love this necron list. HATE the fact I have to play it though :[
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2015/01/15 22:58:38
2015/01/16 01:38:15
Subject: The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (Tyranid Update List p.240)
It depends on what you are playing with Wilson. Mostly you can ignore it with FMCs Swooping. Ground based units will suffer. Try to use cover and venom/malanthropes.
2015/01/16 03:10:47
Subject: The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (Tyranid Update List p.240)
Wilson wrote: Sentry pylons are horrific and the fact I can't jink against them is brutal. How do I deal with them??? I'd need two turns of shooting at them with my 3 Flyrants to statistically finish them - that's mental.
We always play sentry pylon's Death Ray as a Beam. Beams can't hit Swooping FMC's. So keep to the Sky. Hunt down the Anhillation barges, and then blow up the Wraiths and jetbikes. A low model count list with a Barbed heirodule and 2-3 flyrants will make mincemeat of that list.
Also, AFAIK Sentry Pylons don't ignore cover, so Jink Away, and keep everything on the ground in the range of a shrouded giver.
ETA: I looked in the IA:Apoc ver 3 book to make sure my buddy doesn't play them wrong, and I see nothing at all about ignoring cover or Jink.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/01/16 04:04:33
2015/01/16 06:52:41
Subject: The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (Tyranid Update List p.240)
astro_nomicon wrote: I wouldn't be that worried about the Deathstrikes even if it can hit your Flyrants when they're in the air (which I'm not sure it can). It won't ID any of your big bugs except maybe the Malanthrope, and it should be getting a 2+ cover save. It'll put some hurt on the gargoyles, but just place them in cover and chain a few back to the Mope.
Pask should be your first priority. He's about the only thing that's threatening to the Flyrants. If he screws up and deploys Pask within EGrub range, you're golden. If not, you might wanna start opening up Tauroxes so your turn 2 arrivals can do work on the contents. Then go after Pask on turn 2 where you should be able to Egrub him as well as get side or rear armor.
Yeah it can't hit me once I'm in the air, which makes it better as it can't shoot first turn.
It will ignore cover though, but I think you are right, Pask has to be my first priority. Hammer and Anvil Deployment should help me. Not many places to hide from Hive Tyrants in that Deployment.
Wilson wrote: Sentry pylons are horrific and the fact I can't jink against them is brutal. How do I deal with them??? I'd need two turns of shooting at them with my 3 Flyrants to statistically finish them - that's mental.
We always play sentry pylon's Death Ray as a Beam. Beams can't hit Swooping FMC's. So keep to the Sky. Hunt down the Anhillation barges, and then blow up the Wraiths and jetbikes. A low model count list with a Barbed heirodule and 2-3 flyrants will make mincemeat of that list.
Also, AFAIK Sentry Pylons don't ignore cover, so Jink Away, and keep everything on the ground in the range of a shrouded giver.
ETA: I looked in the IA:Apoc ver 3 book to make sure my buddy doesn't play them wrong, and I see nothing at all about ignoring cover or Jink.
Obyron and the overlord go with the pylons and teleport around the board so I cannot ignore them and the TO has faq'd it that a death ray hits everything ( expect flyers) so I cannot ignore them.
I have essentially the same list as Eldercaveman but with 2 Mawloc's, hive crone , dakkafex in pod, Dima in pod, malanthrope, Mucolids, rippers, 3 Flyrants.
2015/01/16 14:21:12
Subject: Re:The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (Tyranid Update List p.240)
Wilson wrote: Sentry pylons are horrific and the fact I can't jink against them is brutal. How do I deal with them??? I'd need two turns of shooting at them with my 3 Flyrants to statistically finish them - that's mental.
We always play sentry pylon's Death Ray as a Beam. Beams can't hit Swooping FMC's. So keep to the Sky. Hunt down the Anhillation barges, and then blow up the Wraiths and jetbikes. A low model count list with a Barbed heirodule and 2-3 flyrants will make mincemeat of that list.
Also, AFAIK Sentry Pylons don't ignore cover, so Jink Away, and keep everything on the ground in the range of a shrouded giver.
ETA: I looked in the IA:Apoc ver 3 book to make sure my buddy doesn't play them wrong, and I see nothing at all about ignoring cover or Jink.
Obyron and the overlord go with the pylons and teleport around the board so I cannot ignore them and the TO has faq'd it that a death ray hits everything ( expect flyers) so I cannot ignore them.
I have essentially the same list as Eldercaveman but with 2 Mawloc's, hive crone , dakkafex in pod, Dima in pod, malanthrope, Mucolids, rippers, 3 Flyrants.
1st you need to talk to your TO, because things shouldn't hit FMCs that can't hit fliers.
2nd I hate that this is the case, but a Barbed Heirodule is a Tyranid answer to Necrons in so many, many different ways. It is so hard to beat necrons without a Barbed heirodule, and it would absolutely obliterate that pylon star.
3rd I'm not sure about IC's joining pylons. Because pylons can't be locked in Combat but IC's obviously can, so if you ever manage to get an assault off on the pylons, you will separate them from the IC's, and thus take away his teleport trick, and you should try to get a TO ruling on this. Also, while my RAW interpretation is that only Obyron must be able to move to teleport, you might dig into this a bit, because the pylons are immobile.
4th Remember that since the Pylons are Artillery, the IC's can't LOS wounds to them. So a single Warp Lance from a Flyrant will take out one of the IC's. He might LOS from one IC to the other, but make him take those 3++ invuls. If you want to tailor, you could throw some zoeys in a pod instead of the Dimacharon.
2015/01/16 14:50:35
Subject: Re:The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (Tyranid Update List p.240)
Wilson wrote: Sentry pylons are horrific and the fact I can't jink against them is brutal. How do I deal with them??? I'd need two turns of shooting at them with my 3 Flyrants to statistically finish them - that's mental.
We always play sentry pylon's Death Ray as a Beam. Beams can't hit Swooping FMC's. So keep to the Sky. Hunt down the Anhillation barges, and then blow up the Wraiths and jetbikes. A low model count list with a Barbed heirodule and 2-3 flyrants will make mincemeat of that list.
Also, AFAIK Sentry Pylons don't ignore cover, so Jink Away, and keep everything on the ground in the range of a shrouded giver.
ETA: I looked in the IA:Apoc ver 3 book to make sure my buddy doesn't play them wrong, and I see nothing at all about ignoring cover or Jink.
Obyron and the overlord go with the pylons and teleport around the board so I cannot ignore them and the TO has faq'd it that a death ray hits everything ( expect flyers) so I cannot ignore them.
I have essentially the same list as Eldercaveman but with 2 Mawloc's, hive crone , dakkafex in pod, Dima in pod, malanthrope, Mucolids, rippers, 3 Flyrants.
1st you need to talk to your TO, because things shouldn't hit FMCs that can't hit fliers.
I'd agree here, and I'm having a dig through the FAQ now to look at this my self.
2nd I hate that this is the case, but a Barbed Heirodule is a Tyranid answer to Necrons in so many, many different ways. It is so hard to beat necrons without a Barbed heirodule, and it would absolutely obliterate that pylon star.
Barbed Heirodule's aren't allowed in with the comp.
3rd I'm not sure about IC's joining pylons. Because pylons can't be locked in Combat but IC's obviously can, so if you ever manage to get an assault off on the pylons, you will separate them from the IC's, and thus take away his teleport trick, and you should try to get a TO ruling on this. Also, while my RAW interpretation is that only Obyron must be able to move to teleport, you might dig into this a bit, because the pylons are immobile.
I thought the trick with the PylonStar wasn't so much jumping it around, but deep striking it in and messing things up with it? Getting into combat with it would be a good counter to be fair. Chances are you'll take out the rest of the models, and then sweep it off the board.
4th Remember that since the Pylons are Artillery, the IC's can't LOS wounds to them. So a single Warp Lance from a Flyrant will take out one of the IC's. He might LOS from one IC to the other, but make him take those 3++ invuls. If you want to tailor, you could throw some zoeys in a pod instead of the Dimacharon.
Again I have to agree here, if he is jumping it around the board, throw those Devourer's on it and get rid of the IC's.
Edit: Found the relevant FAQ rulings,
From the main 40kGT FAQ's
A template or blast shooting attack with Skyfire can hit a Swooping FMC. If the blast would scatter on a
ground unit, models on the ground under the template are hit normally as well.
From the Additional Caledonian FAQ's
A Doom Scythe’s Death Ray and the Sentry Pylon’s Focused Death Ray may hit Swooping
FMC’s like other Blast/Template weapons. However the ray’s initial point may only target
the Swooping FMC if it is also using the Skyfire rule.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/01/16 15:01:20
tag8833 wrote: ETA: I looked in the IA:Apoc ver 3 book to make sure my buddy doesn't play them wrong, and I see nothing at all about ignoring cover or Jink.
You're only allowed to declare Jink when targeted.
FDRs don't target the unit so you never have the rules opportunity to declare Jink.
My beautiful wife wrote:Trucks = Carnifex snack, Tanks = meals.
2015/01/16 15:38:12
Subject: Re:The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (Tyranid Update List p.240)
A template or blast shooting attack with Skyfire can hit a Swooping FMC. If the blast would scatter on a
ground unit, models on the ground under the template are hit normally as well.
From the Additional Caledonian FAQ's
A Doom Scythe’s Death Ray and the Sentry Pylon’s Focused Death Ray may hit Swooping
FMC’s like other Blast/Template weapons. However the ray’s initial point may only target
the Swooping FMC if it is also using the Skyfire rule.
Those rulings are quite significant. With those rulings and Comp in place you are essentially playing a different game than we are. Look around for what extreme rulings they have that buff some tyranid unit into absurdity. Also, if they are being so literal with blasts, consider Living Artillery Node. Without the LVO nerf to Blasts and terrain, it is quite powerful. Grab yourself some gargoyles, and put the Dimacharon on the table. Definitely add a 2nd Malanthrope.
I could tailor a list to beat that necron list even with those FAQ's and army comp in place, but that list would be unbalanced and perform poorly against other opponents. Here is an example:
tag8833 wrote: ETA: I looked in the IA:Apoc ver 3 book to make sure my buddy doesn't play them wrong, and I see nothing at all about ignoring cover or Jink.
You're only allowed to declare Jink when targeted.
FDRs don't target the unit so you never have the rules opportunity to declare Jink.
How do you arrive at this interpretation? You draw 2 points that don't scatter. So everything under the line is explicitly targeted. Just like everything under a Flame template is targetted. That was the basis for the absurd (from a realism point of view) argument over invisibility creating a magical wall that prevents you from placing flame templates on units near them.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/01/16 15:45:09
2015/01/16 16:13:13
Subject: Re:The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (Tyranid Update List p.240)
A template or blast shooting attack with Skyfire can hit a Swooping FMC. If the blast would scatter on a
ground unit, models on the ground under the template are hit normally as well.
From the Additional Caledonian FAQ's
A Doom Scythe’s Death Ray and the Sentry Pylon’s Focused Death Ray may hit Swooping
FMC’s like other Blast/Template weapons. However the ray’s initial point may only target
the Swooping FMC if it is also using the Skyfire rule.
Those rulings are quite significant. With those rulings and Comp in place you are essentially playing a different game than we are. Look around for what extreme rulings they have that buff some tyranid unit into absurdity. Also, if they are being so literal with blasts, consider Living Artillery Node. Without the LVO nerf to Blasts and terrain, it is quite powerful. Grab yourself some gargoyles, and put the Dimacharon on the table. Definitely add a 2nd Malanthrope.
I could tailor a list to beat that necron list even with those FAQ's and army comp in place, but that list would be unbalanced and perform poorly against other opponents. Here is an example:
tag8833 wrote: ETA: I looked in the IA:Apoc ver 3 book to make sure my buddy doesn't play them wrong, and I see nothing at all about ignoring cover or Jink.
You're only allowed to declare Jink when targeted.
FDRs don't target the unit so you never have the rules opportunity to declare Jink.
How do you arrive at this interpretation? You draw 2 points that don't scatter. So everything under the line is explicitly targeted. Just like everything under a Flame template is targetted. That was the basis for the absurd (from a realism point of view) argument over invisibility creating a magical wall that prevents you from placing flame templates on units near them.
Tailoring a list to beat anything is easy. but list submission was nearly a month ago!
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