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2015/01/25 19:40:50
Subject: Re:The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (Tyranid Update List p.240)
tag8833 wrote: Went to a local RTT today. Ended up 4th (of 20) because I screwed up on the Scouring and thought all objectives were worth the same. I lost a game because I landed a flyrant on a 1 point objective instead of a 3 point one. I tabled both of my other opponents. It was a bummer too, because without me at the final table, Eldar Serpent Spam walked away with it.
But the most interesting part of the tourney was an interaction between a Dread Knight and my Barbed Heirodule. I was well on my way to tabling a Grey Knights player. Except for a Dread Knight which is just really really tough to kill. However I took 1 wound off, and was in great position to charge it with my Barbed Heirodule who hadn't suffered a wound yet. I denied force, and he failed Sanctuary, so I figured for sure barbie would be able to kill it. Unfortunately it has higher WS, and I, so it hits 1st. Did 3 Wounds to barbie, and I failed all 3 FNP's, which is ok, because my 6 attacks should be enough. 1 Hit, and I roll a 1 to wound. Well that stank, but I still have stomps. I roll 3 Stomps. (1, 1, and 4). Did a Wound, but it made it save. So I started sweating a bit, if It gets force off I'm dead. Thankfully I deny force again, and he doesn't have enough dice for Santuary after he using cleansing flame on my Flyrants. But the Dread Knight hit 4 times, wounded 4 times, and I failed 4 FNP rolls, and lost the Barbed Heirodule without doing a single wound to the Dread Knight.
I thought that charge was a no-brainer. Statistically, I do 3 wounds and he makes 1 save, and I kill it in the 2nd round of combat having lost 3 wounds myself. If I didn't charge he was probably going to get the charge off on me, and the difference in attacks seemed like a good idea. Did I misplay it? At the end of the game he had the dread knight (one wound left) and 2 purifiers and a single terminator. Meanwhile I lost 2 ripper bases and the barbed heirodule.
Congrats. Nothing you can do about the dice, no matter what the mathhammer says.
But always pay attention to the missions. Otherwise, you'd be kicking yourself because you could have won the game.
Iechine wrote: So I came in third at that tourny, but not with the list I wanted. Last time I went to this bunker I didnt bring FW and they said "Oh you could have" and I played against a lot of it, so this time I brought FW and they said "No FW this tourney". : /
Would have been helpful to post on your page.
I had to hastily borrow some models from a friend of mine who had them on display...replacing the Dimachaeron and Malanthrope with a Venom, Lictor, and Tyrannofex. : /
So having a TON of dead weight my flyrants did their best. I maxed every game but the second, which I lost primary on in the last turn by magically not taking the last hull point off a Gorkanaught with a massive amount of Flyrant fire into his rear armor, which was standing on an objective I was ready to take. These things happen.
I know how you feel, buddy. That happened to me at the BAO 2013. All I had to do was to kill a dreadnought with 12 TL-S6 shots against its AV10 rear armor....and I could only manage 2 glances. That cost me the win.
Crimson Heretic wrote: Can somebody shine some light on the purpose of these units and if they are even worth trying to play?lictors, raveners,trigon, mawloc?
Lictors - great as a harassment, distraction unit. Invaluable in Maelstrom-type scenarios due to their pinpoint deepstriking. Helps to make Tyranids more MSU, though a liability in Purge missions.
Raveners - a very fast and highly dangerous threat, especially if you take them in numbers. However, their poor saves means that if they don't have cover, you're going to lose that unit through volume-of-fire (something Eldar and Tau can easily do with cover-ignoring massed firepower).
Trygon - a 3rd tier Tyranid assault unit, behind the dimachaeron, the Swarmlord and the toxicrene.
Mawloc - a great unit with excellent mobility. The cheapest point-per-wound unit in the Tyranid army and 1 of only 2 large blast AP2 weapons in the codex. He is also used to mess with the enemy deployment and movement.
Crimson Heretic wrote: Can somebody shine some light on the purpose of these units and if they are even worth trying to play?lictors, raveners,trigon, mawloc?
There's some reviews in the first post of this thread you can check out. They're up-to-date.
Iechine wrote: So I came in third at that tourny, but not with the list I wanted. Last time I went to this bunker I didnt bring FW and they said "Oh you could have" and I played against a lot of it, so this time I brought FW and they said "No FW this tourney". : /
Would have been helpful to post on your page.
I had to hastily borrow some models from a friend of mine who had them on display...replacing the Dimachaeron and Malanthrope with a Venom, Lictor, and Tyrannofex. : /
So having a TON of dead weight my flyrants did their best. I maxed every game but the second, which I lost primary on in the last turn by magically not taking the last hull point off a Gorkanaught with a massive amount of Flyrant fire into his rear armor, which was standing on an objective I was ready to take. These things happen.
I know how you feel, buddy. That happened to me at the BAO 2013. All I had to do was to kill a dreadnought with 12 TL-S6 shots against its AV10 rear armor....and I could only manage 2 glances. That cost me the win.
Think that's bad?
I put 36 twin-linked devourer shots from Flyrants into the rear of a Valkyrie at Cally and only did 1 hull point. Which led to me losing the game!
So, I played a 2k tournament today with double Skyblight and triple sporefield formations. Skyblight was mean and 60 re spawning gargoyles were too much for my opponents on maelstrom missions. Smart players went for the hive tyrants first and I was left without synapse for two turns one game, but was actually not too bad. Gargoyles gone to ground on an objective was a plus most of the time. Triple Sporefield is cool, but infiltrating them did nothing other than create a wall mid board my opponent couldn't cross. Setting up 18" was too far to realistically reach any gun line army. Most players just wrote off my table half unless they could drop pod or fly behind with a flyer so it did good for board manipulation. I might try them again and deep strike all of them instead.
2015/01/26 05:00:25
Subject: The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (Tyranid Update List p.240)
pinecone77 wrote: Congrats on doing so well despite the wrath of the dice gawds.
I'm great at getting 3-5th. In fact, I've never placed outside that range in my relatively few(5) tourney appearances. I usually run into Tau, and drop 1 game, and beat the rest of my opponents handily. This tourney had 3 Tau players, but I probably could have handled 2 of the 3. The player who normally is my Tau Nemesis was the judge and thus not playing.
It was an interesting Meta. 3 Tau, 1 Eldar, and 1 Dark Eldar / Eldar, and the only losses any of them had were to each other. I would have been demolished by 1 of the Tau lists, and it would have been an uphill battle vs the other 2, but the Eldar lists that won would have been easy. The Dark Eldar player was a potential bad matchup (7 Venoms, 2 Fliers, Deep Striking Fire Dragons) I might have been able to beat it, but I really don't know.
The Grey Knights player is my hero. He runs a bit of everything, and always wins dirty. At the end of 5 he never has more than a few models left alive, and yet almost always wins unless the game goes on and he is tabled.
2015/01/26 14:48:55
Subject: The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (Tyranid Update List p.240)
I ran a RTT yesterday, and had a crazy ringer list with me to play the Byes if they wished. It was 1850.
Primary - CAD (tyranids)
Flyrant Mucolid 3x Rippers Harridan
CtA Ally - Imperial Knights
Cerastus Lancer Cerastus Acheron
I had 8 models. In both of the games i ended up playing I tabled or nearly tabled the other player. However since it was a bye, they got points for the round regardless of the result. I have to say, It's not a list i'd bring for a friendly or casual game but it made me feel really powerful using it.
I'm playing against a Grey Knights player later today for our weekly casual league. He's been a bit cocky lately when facing tyranids, as our other tyranid player is still fairly new and not able to win very often. Here's what i'm taking with me to show him up (hopefully) today:
Exocrine ----------- He enjoys using Draigo and Terminators, and Dreadknights mostly. I feel like my list will have the tools needed to handle the challenge. I'll check back in with results later.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/01/26 14:51:23
Been out of the game for awhile, trying to find time to get back into it.
2015/01/26 15:08:40
Subject: The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (Tyranid Update List p.240)
I played a 1250 point game last week and feel like I punted it for the loss... :-/
I had 2 Flyrants, 4 Dakkafexes, Malanthrope, 2 Mucolids.
He had the 500 point Knight, 4 Thunderwolves (2 fists), 2 Dreads with hellfrost cannons, Bjorn with a hellfrost cannon, in a formation where they all get 5++.
He got first turn but flubbed on all his hellfrost rolls and rolled a 12" for the scatter on the Knight. I wanted first blood so 2 Flyrants and 2 Dakkafexes (that were Onslaughted) should've killed one of the Dreadnaughts... but I only ended up doing a single hull point.
Throughout the game, Gerantius never had to make a single invul save - because it was pointless to shoot the Devs at him and my Warp Blast literally never hit.
My Carnifexes were absolutely useless in CC - the Thunderwolves slaughtered them without losing a single wound.
Please tell me my dice failed me. I'm not sure I can handle sucking that bad. I ended up killing 2 dreadnaughts and leaving the Thunderwolves with a single model, getting tabled on turn 7 (because I decided to charge Bjorn with Gerry 7" away instead of flying off to shoot Bjorn in the rear).
My beautiful wife wrote:Trucks = Carnifex snack, Tanks = meals.
2015/01/26 15:32:40
Subject: The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (Tyranid Update List p.240)
Incognito15 wrote: Hey all i am new to nids and have an 1850 tournament coming up. I own two hive tyrants and no forgeworld otherwise i have most models.
If you werent flyrant spamming what would you take? Do you feel like a venomthrope is nessecary?
Definitely include the venomthrope if you are not running the malanthrope. As a matter of fact, consider running either 2 of the venoms or getting a fortification (bastion or bunker) to house him in.
Then fill out the rest of the army with these units, depending on which you like:
Flyrants - when you get more
Zoanthropes (warp charge battery and backfield Synapse)
Dakkafexes (in tyrannocytes)
Tervigon (in tyrannocytes)
Ripper Swarms
Mucolids
Termagants
Gargoyles
Biovores
Tyrannofex (in tyrannocytes)
Dimachaeron (in tyrannocytes) - even though you don't have the model, he is a good assault unit to consider
Mawlocs
Living Artillery formation
Barbed Hierodule
nidsNguard wrote: Didn't see the Toxicrene on the main page. Whats the thoughts of that vs the Dimachaeron?
I'll put out the review for it later today.
The consensus of most Tyranid players is that the Dimachaeron is the best Tyranid assault unit in the army. Everything else is secondary, including the toxicrene. However, the toxicrene is 50-pts cheaper so if you're on a "budget", then consider the toxicrene as an assault unit. But if you can afford it, go for the dimachaeron instead.
pinecone77 wrote: Congrats on doing so well despite the wrath of the dice gawds.
I'm great at getting 3-5th. In fact, I've never placed outside that range in my relatively few(5) tourney appearances. I usually run into Tau, and drop 1 game, and beat the rest of my opponents handily. This tourney had 3 Tau players, but I probably could have handled 2 of the 3. The player who normally is my Tau Nemesis was the judge and thus not playing.
It was an interesting Meta. 3 Tau, 1 Eldar, and 1 Dark Eldar / Eldar, and the only losses any of them had were to each other. I would have been demolished by 1 of the Tau lists, and it would have been an uphill battle vs the other 2, but the Eldar lists that won would have been easy. The Dark Eldar player was a potential bad matchup (7 Venoms, 2 Fliers, Deep Striking Fire Dragons) I might have been able to beat it, but I really don't know.
The Grey Knights player is my hero. He runs a bit of everything, and always wins dirty. At the end of 5 he never has more than a few models left alive, and yet almost always wins unless the game goes on and he is tabled.
Why would you consider his (the GK player's) wins to be dirty? I'd consider it either brilliant or damn lucky, but not dirty.
tetrisphreak wrote: I ran a RTT yesterday, and had a crazy ringer list with me to play the Byes if they wished. It was 1850.
Primary - CAD (tyranids)
Flyrant
Mucolid
3x Rippers
Harridan
CtA Ally - Imperial Knights
Cerastus Lancer
Cerastus Acheron
I had 8 models. In both of the games i ended up playing I tabled or nearly tabled the other player. However since it was a bye, they got points for the round regardless of the result. I have to say, It's not a list i'd bring for a friendly or casual game but it made me feel really powerful using it.
I'm playing against a Grey Knights player later today for our weekly casual league. He's been a bit cocky lately when facing tyranids, as our other tyranid player is still fairly new and not able to win very often. Here's what i'm taking with me to show him up (hopefully) today:
-----------
He enjoys using Draigo and Terminators, and Dreadknights mostly. I feel like my list will have the tools needed to handle the challenge. I'll check back in with results later.
Good list. However, you could really use a tyrannocyte for your dimachaeron.
rigeld2 wrote: I played a 1250 point game last week and feel like I punted it for the loss... :-/
I had 2 Flyrants, 4 Dakkafexes, Malanthrope, 2 Mucolids.
He had the 500 point Knight, 4 Thunderwolves (2 fists), 2 Dreads with hellfrost cannons, Bjorn with a hellfrost cannon, in a formation where they all get 5++.
He got first turn but flubbed on all his hellfrost rolls and rolled a 12" for the scatter on the Knight. I wanted first blood so 2 Flyrants and 2 Dakkafexes (that were Onslaughted) should've killed one of the Dreadnaughts... but I only ended up doing a single hull point.
Throughout the game, Gerantius never had to make a single invul save - because it was pointless to shoot the Devs at him and my Warp Blast literally never hit.
My Carnifexes were absolutely useless in CC - the Thunderwolves slaughtered them without losing a single wound.
Please tell me my dice failed me. I'm not sure I can handle sucking that bad. I ended up killing 2 dreadnaughts and leaving the Thunderwolves with a single model, getting tabled on turn 7 (because I decided to charge Bjorn with Gerry 7" away instead of flying off to shoot Bjorn in the rear).
Ok, your dice failed you, so please stop sucking so bad. Haha.... j.k.!
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/01/26 18:14:43
@Jy2 - thanks for the input! I considered a tyrannocyte on the Dima but I've seen this guy play and he typically deep strikes close with his terminators and draigo. I figure if he's coming to me, i can save points on the pod and just deploy the Dimachaeron. The only thing that i'm worried about is a lucky gatling psilencer with force one-shotting any of my MC's but that's just a risk i'll have to take. (3 to hit, 6 to wound, and then fail a 3+ save or 2+ cover save (if possible)).
Been out of the game for awhile, trying to find time to get back into it.
2015/01/26 16:32:21
Subject: Re:The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (Tyranid Update List p.240)
He was wondering why we don't just open the floodgates and allow unlimited detachments in tournament play (though still with the limit of 0-1 for each detachment) and how my Pentyrant Tyranid would change in such a case.
And here is my response:
"Actually, without a limit to detachments (and assuming 0-1 for each detachment), I wouldn't even call it Pentyrant list anymore. And honestly, I probably won't be running the running the Sporefield formation. Instead I would run something like this:
Wall of Martyrs Imperial Defence Emplacement w/1 extra Barricade
Tyranid Allies:
Dakka Flyrant - Egrubs
Mucolid
Eldar Allies:
Farseer - Jetbike, Mantle of the Laughing God, Spirit Stones of Anath'lan
3x Windrider Jetbikes
This abomination of a list may be weak in Maelstrom objectives, at least initially, but it will get stronger later in the game. Flyrants will control/limit the movement of the enemy. With 15 Warp Dice base, Mantleseer will zip around and reliably summon daemons wherever they are needed. It gets stronger and stronger in Maelstrom objectives over time, that is, if it even matters (or should I say, if the opponent doesn't get tabled by the flyrants).
Without limits, abomination lists like these would become reality. There are more - much, much more - but this is just 1 example off the top of my head about a list that I could realistically run in such a case. "
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/01/26 18:01:58
Incognito15 wrote: Hey all i am new to nids and have an 1850 tournament coming up. I own two hive tyrants and no forgeworld otherwise i have most models.
If you werent flyrant spamming what would you take? Do you feel like a venomthrope is nessecary?
Yes, shrouding is too dang good not to take. I have posted a dozen or so lists that only use two Tyrants, so you might take a look and see if it gives you any ideas. What are the perameters of the Tourney? That would help us give better advice.
The will of the hive is always the same: HUNGER
2015/01/26 18:16:19
Subject: The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (Tyranid Update List p.240)
Jy2 just to be fair, if tournaments "opened up" their comp to true 7th (with a 0-1 limit per unique detachments) then your sextyrant list is illegal. An ally detachment cannot have the same faction as your primary. I know BAO changes this rule, but if the format shifted to open everything up I cannot see why BAO would maintain self-allying.
Edit - also players are already doing daemon-summoning eldar lists even with current comp systems.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/01/26 18:17:40
Been out of the game for awhile, trying to find time to get back into it.
2015/01/26 18:22:18
Subject: The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (Tyranid Update List p.240)
tetrisphreak wrote: Jy2 just to be fair, if tournaments "opened up" their comp to true 7th (with a 0-1 limit per unique detachments) then your sextyrant list is illegal. An ally detachment cannot have the same faction as your primary. I know BAO changes this rule, but if the format shifted to open everything up I cannot see why BAO would maintain self-allying.
Edit - also players are already doing daemon-summoning eldar lists even with current comp systems.
But then couldn't you just replace the Allied Bugs with a SkyTyrant? ... Yeah Warhammer is so poorly ballenced, that going all "cra-cra" is easy...I was thinking a Leviathan list with a Gargant run by Stealer hybrid Meks...
The will of the hive is always the same: HUNGER
2015/01/26 18:26:35
Subject: The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (Tyranid Update List p.240)
tetrisphreak wrote: Jy2 just to be fair, if tournaments "opened up" their comp to true 7th (with a 0-1 limit per unique detachments) then your sextyrant list is illegal. An ally detachment cannot have the same faction as your primary. I know BAO changes this rule, but if the format shifted to open everything up I cannot see why BAO would maintain self-allying.
Edit - also players are already doing daemon-summoning eldar lists even with current comp systems.
Well, if the BAO opened up their format, it's all just speculation on what they would or would not do. I don't know for sure whether they would or would not allow for self-allies. However, I am basing my list on their current composition, but just expanded to allow for more unique detachments. And in such a case, allowing the current trend of self-allying is certainly a reasonable assumption to make.
But really, the list is just hypothetical. There are no actual rules governing how it could actually function in a comped environment, other than assumptions you are speculating upon.
And yes, Daemon summoning lists already exist. Though how many also do Daemon summoning backed by 6 flyrants?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/01/26 18:42:48
pinecone77 wrote: Congrats on doing so well despite the wrath of the dice gawds.
I'm great at getting 3-5th. In fact, I've never placed outside that range in my relatively few(5) tourney appearances. I usually run into Tau, and drop 1 game, and beat the rest of my opponents handily. This tourney had 3 Tau players, but I probably could have handled 2 of the 3. The player who normally is my Tau Nemesis was the judge and thus not playing.
It was an interesting Meta. 3 Tau, 1 Eldar, and 1 Dark Eldar / Eldar, and the only losses any of them had were to each other. I would have been demolished by 1 of the Tau lists, and it would have been an uphill battle vs the other 2, but the Eldar lists that won would have been easy. The Dark Eldar player was a potential bad matchup (7 Venoms, 2 Fliers, Deep Striking Fire Dragons) I might have been able to beat it, but I really don't know.
The Grey Knights player is my hero. He runs a bit of everything, and always wins dirty. At the end of 5 he never has more than a few models left alive, and yet almost always wins unless the game goes on and he is tabled.
Why would you consider his (the GK player's) wins to be dirty? I'd consider it either brilliant or damn lucky, but not dirty.
I meant dirty in that he never has much left at the end of the game. He isn't dishonest at all, he just grinds it out without any flash and pulls victories out based on superior generalship. He went 2-1 with his only loss being a turn 7 tabling by the overall Champion Eldar, and he would have won that game if it ended on 5, and tied it at the end of 6. The last tourney that I saw him play at he went 3-0, but got 2nd because of battle points. When he played AD Lance with Necron Flying Circus he only got 4 battle points.
One of my biggest dissatisfaction with Tyranids is the inability to run a board control, grind-it-out sort of list in Eternal War missions. If I want to compete with Tau and Eldar, I've got to get big, get flashy, and blow them off the table or lose, and even then, many Tau lists are unbeatable unless the opponent isn't prepared for me. Maelstrom fixes that, allowing me to punish Tau and Eldar for their gunline (but totally mobile, so I guess not Gunline?) ways.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
jy2 wrote: I was discussing with another player in my battle report thread:
He was wondering why we don't just open the floodgates and allow unlimited detachments in tournament play (though still with the limit of 0-1 for each detachment) and how my Pentyrant Tyranid would change in such a case.
And here is my response:
"Actually, without a limit to detachments (and assuming 0-1 for each detachment), I wouldn't even call it Pentyrant list anymore. And honestly, I probably won't be running the running the Sporefield formation. Instead I would run something like this:
Wall of Martyrs Imperial Defence Emplacement w/1 extra Barricade
Tyranid Allies:
Dakka Flyrant - Egrubs
Mucolid
Eldar Allies:
Farseer - Jetbike, Mantle of the Laughing God, Spirit Stones of Anath'lan
3x Windrider Jetbikes
This abomination of a list may be weak in Maelstrom objectives, at least initially, but it will get stronger later in the game. Flyrants will control/limit the movement of the enemy. With 15 Warp Dice base, Mantleseer will zip around and reliably summon daemons wherever they are needed. It gets stronger and stronger in Maelstrom objectives over time, that is, if it even matters (or should I say, if the opponent doesn't get tabled by the flyrants).
Without limits, abomination lists like these would become reality. There are more - much, much more - but this is just 1 example off the top of my head about a list that I could realistically run in such a case. "
So your position is the 5 flyrants is great, but 6 is too much, and shouldn't be allowed by Army Composition rules?
From my point of view any Army Composition rules that allow more than 3 Flyrants has serious problems for meaningful and fun competitive play.
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2015/01/26 20:57:58
2015/01/26 21:53:26
Subject: The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (Tyranid Update List p.240)
pinecone77 wrote: Congrats on doing so well despite the wrath of the dice gawds.
I'm great at getting 3-5th. In fact, I've never placed outside that range in my relatively few(5) tourney appearances. I usually run into Tau, and drop 1 game, and beat the rest of my opponents handily. This tourney had 3 Tau players, but I probably could have handled 2 of the 3. The player who normally is my Tau Nemesis was the judge and thus not playing.
It was an interesting Meta. 3 Tau, 1 Eldar, and 1 Dark Eldar / Eldar, and the only losses any of them had were to each other. I would have been demolished by 1 of the Tau lists, and it would have been an uphill battle vs the other 2, but the Eldar lists that won would have been easy. The Dark Eldar player was a potential bad matchup (7 Venoms, 2 Fliers, Deep Striking Fire Dragons) I might have been able to beat it, but I really don't know.
The Grey Knights player is my hero. He runs a bit of everything, and always wins dirty. At the end of 5 he never has more than a few models left alive, and yet almost always wins unless the game goes on and he is tabled.
Why would you consider his (the GK player's) wins to be dirty? I'd consider it either brilliant or damn lucky, but not dirty.
I meant dirty in that he never has much left at the end of the game. He isn't dishonest at all, he just grinds it out without any flash and pulls victories out based on superior generalship. He went 2-1 with his only loss being a turn 7 tabling by the overall Champion Eldar, and he would have won that game if it ended on 5, and tied it at the end of 6. The last tourney that I saw him play at he went 3-0, but got 2nd because of battle points. When he played AD Lance with Necron Flying Circus he only got 4 battle points.
One of my biggest dissatisfaction with Tyranids is the inability to run a board control, grind-it-out sort of list in Eternal War missions. If I want to compete with Tau and Eldar, I've got to get big, get flashy, and blow them off the table or lose, and even then, many Tau lists are unbeatable unless the opponent isn't prepared for me. Maelstrom fixes that, allowing me to punish Tau and Eldar for their gunline (but totally mobile, so I guess not Gunline?) ways.
Yeah, that's what I assumed you meant. Still, I don't think the term you are looking for is "dirty". It kind of has a negative connotation to it. I think a more suitable term is a "grind-out".
So your position is the 5 flyrants is great, but 6 is too much, and shouldn't be allowed by Army Composition rules?
From my point of view any Army Composition rules that allow more than 3 Flyrants has serious problems for meaningful and fun competitive play.
My position is that you can build some crazy sh*t with unlimited detachments. Now whether one is better than the other is somewhat subjective and everyone has different "standards" with regards to what they consider cheesy. But regardless, more freedom = more craziness.
So if the new Quantam shielding rumours are true (AV13 all around but loses it upon being glanced), what would be the best list to bring against Necrons? Same old Flyrant spam?
EDIT: Apparently it goes away after the first pen, so no more Devourer shots into the rear. No Carnifex = no party?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/01/26 22:14:41
YMDC = nightmare
2015/01/26 22:36:41
Subject: The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (Tyranid Update List p.240)
Frozocrone wrote: So if the new Quantam shielding rumours are true (AV13 all around but loses it upon being glanced), what would be the best list to bring against Necrons? Same old Flyrant spam?
EDIT: Apparently it goes away after the first pen, so no more Devourer shots into the rear. No Carnifex = no party?
I really don't want to speculate on this until we've got concrete rules from the new dex....but if it were true, then we're screwed!
Haha....not really. We'll find a way.
So AV13 quantum shielding all the way around? Whoa....that's pretty good. As a Necron player also, I sure hope that's true.
He was wondering why we don't just open the floodgates and allow unlimited detachments in tournament play (though still with the limit of 0-1 for each detachment) and how my Pentyrant Tyranid would change in such a case.
And here is my response:
"Actually, without a limit to detachments (and assuming 0-1 for each detachment), I wouldn't even call it Pentyrant list anymore. And honestly, I probably won't be running the running the Sporefield formation. Instead I would run something like this:
Wall of Martyrs Imperial Defence Emplacement w/1 extra Barricade
Tyranid Allies:
Dakka Flyrant - Egrubs
Mucolid
Eldar Allies:
Farseer - Jetbike, Mantle of the Laughing God, Spirit Stones of Anath'lan
3x Windrider Jetbikes
This abomination of a list may be weak in Maelstrom objectives, at least initially, but it will get stronger later in the game. Flyrants will control/limit the movement of the enemy. With 15 Warp Dice base, Mantleseer will zip around and reliably summon daemons wherever they are needed. It gets stronger and stronger in Maelstrom objectives over time, that is, if it even matters (or should I say, if the opponent doesn't get tabled by the flyrants).
Without limits, abomination lists like these would become reality. There are more - much, much more - but this is just 1 example off the top of my head about a list that I could realistically run in such a case. "
Don't limit the detachments. Instead limit the factions you are allowed to play. I think this is where most people get hung up on. Your bugs couldn't summon daemons then. Try unlimited detachments, but a hard lock on only one faction allowed per player. Then the mythical cheese beast loses his teeth.
2015/01/27 01:11:02
Subject: The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (Tyranid Update List p.240)
Don't limit the detachments. Instead limit the factions you are allowed to play. I think this is where most people get hung up on. Your bugs couldn't summon daemons then. Try unlimited detachments, but a hard lock on only one faction allowed per player. Then the mythical cheese beast loses his teeth.
That's going to cause even more of an uproar. So no CSM + Daemons? No Eldar + Dark Eldar? No GK's + Space Marines? Man, I'm not going down that rabbit-hole!
astro_nomicon wrote: I don't think many players would be happy about completely losing allies this far into the game.
If they banned the allies matrix tomorrow, I'd be fine with it.
Actually, I'd be fine with it also. I'm more of a purist and wouldn't mind strolling down 5th Edition memory lane.
Of course we all know that isn't going to fly with most gamers, not after all the time and money they've invested into their "Secondary" armies. Once you give someone a taste of the good stuff, it's going to be damn hard to get him to stop. #plasticcrack
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/01/27 05:27:05
DarthDiggler wrote: Don't limit the detachments. Instead limit the factions you are allowed to play. I think this is where most people get hung up on. Your bugs couldn't summon daemons then. Try unlimited detachments, but a hard lock on only one faction allowed per player. Then the mythical cheese beast loses his teeth.
I'm not thrilled with that as a solution either. It promotes even more spam, i.e. even more unbalanced lists and Rock-Paper-40k.
I think it would be simpler to have unlocking detachments (before you can take a 2nd HS, you must take an Elite and FA), Percentage limits, or Rarity classification. My favorite idea is Douche points, but that is politically untenable in the foreseeable future. Honestly there are thousands of ways to fix the mess that is army Comp.
.....Bay Area Open GT 2013 - Best Tyranids 
.....LVO GT 2014 Team Tournament - Best Generals
(building)
(less)
j.k.!
... 
Yeah Warhammer is so poorly ballenced, that going all "
