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2015/05/19 20:34:02
Subject: The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (Eldar Tactica p.318 & 319)
Against a riptide, he would naturally hit on 3's, rerolling 1s, and on the charge have 7 attacks. Wounding on 2's and rerolling failed wounds means I might get one or two 6's and thats up to his invul to save him. Anyone who's ever had their MC in combat with a Riptide knows they somehow manage to get wounded more than they should, so hopefully catalyst protects.
Against a Wraithknight? Here's hoping for those 6's. He still swings first being initiative 8. I'd give him extra attacks and hope my shred rerolls produce more 6's.
I know this isn't the rules discussion but I didn't think it was justified to make a new thread for this question.
I'm a new player and recently obtained a swarm box and also purchased a tervigon / venomthrope box, which i build two venoms and a zoanthrope.
My question is in regards to the Carnifex.
Why is the stranglthorn cannon considered a poor upgrade when you can successful pin a unit to run your adrenal glands hormagaunts into them without getting mowed down in overwatch?
Also, does using crushing claws force my carnifex to do all of his attacks on Initative 1 if I have one that is ST , CC combined for two sets of melee weapons?
Thanks for this thread, VERY insightful for a new player.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/05/19 20:51:37
Sinful Hero wrote: We're still missing a few units from the reviews right? I know I signed on for Meiotic Spores and still haven't gotten around to it.
All the formations too - I've used some but not enough to get a good feel of how it performs against different armies.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Alaxandir wrote: I know this isn't the rules discussion but I didn't think it was justified to make a new thread for this question.
I'm a new player and recently obtained a swarm box and also purchased a tervigon / venomthrope box, which i build two venoms and a zoanthrope.
My question is in regards to the Carnifex.
Why is the stranglthorn cannon considered a poor upgrade when you can successful pin a unit to run your adrenal glands hormagaunts into them without getting mowed down in overwatch?
Also, does using crushing claws force my carnifex to do all of his attacks on Initative 1 if I have one that is ST , CC combined for two sets of melee weapons?
Thanks for this thread, VERY insightful for a new player.
As the author of that particular review, it's outclassed. Not sure if I put it in, but a Harpy does it better as it is Hard to Hit and TL so if you scatter badly, then you can reroll as opposed to taking wounds on your guys. Stranglethorn Cannons also neglect the Carnifexes base S9 which is extremely useful for popping high AV targets, such as Walkers (particulary with D3 HoW).
To sum it up, a Carnifex wants to be up close. Devourers are extremely good for it as it has enough attacks and strength to threaten any vehicle without resorting to smash - the guns allow it to perform other roles, such as cheap AA and anti horde.
Monstrous Creatures aren't affected by Unwieldy so you strike at I2. It doesn't seem like much, but you do tie with Orks and co if you're tarpitted (Devourers help stop this) and go before Stomp attacks should you be in that position.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/05/19 21:17:17
YMDC = nightmare
2015/05/19 21:45:57
Subject: The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (Eldar Tactica p.318 & 319)
This is the case with many a Nid unit. It is never so much as that unit is bad - it is usually this unit is better.
I can take a Trygon Prime with Reaper of Obliiterax for 275 points. It is not a bad unit. It has decent dakka and very good cc.
On the other hand I can also DS a Dimachaeron in a Deathspitter Tyranocyte for 275 points. The Dimachaeron is just a better cc monster. I also have a ton of dakka and two MCs.
Ergo no Trygon Prime. This is the same as you Carnie. He is decent but there is better. .
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/05/19 21:46:23
2015/05/19 23:58:09
Subject: Re:The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (Eldar Tactica p.318 & 319)
Speaking of Tyrgon primes> I have to take one to a Major Tournament on the west coast this week end I have to take a trygon because of losing a big bet in a game.
I have two list That I have narrowed down. If I could get some feed back on List 1 or 2 that be great. list 3 is for fun and craziness.
SO these are the what I have come up with after getting feed back and some play testing. I have to take one of these to the
Guardian Cup 8 the Ocho. in 4 days. let me know what you think.
Both are Null deployment style list. with a solid back field unit/s for the ITC mission format.
List one. Has deployment option in that I can start on the board with a 2+ cover save if it is advantages too.
Hive Tyrant [Electroshock Grubs, Twin-linked Devourer with Brainleech Worms, Twin-linked Devourer with Brainleech Worms, Wings]
Hive Tyrant [Electroshock Grubs, Twin-linked Devourer with Brainleech Worms, Twin-linked Devourer with Brainleech Worms, Wings]
+ Elites +
Malanthrope Brood [Malanthrope]
+ Troops +
20x Hormagaunt [20x Toxin Sacs]
Mucolid Spore Cluster [Mucolid Spore]
+ Fast Attack +
Spore Mine Cluster [4x Spore Mine]
+ Heavy Support +
Biovore Brood [Biovore]
Carnifex [Twin-linked Devourer with Brainleech Worms, Twin-linked Devourer with Brainleech Worms]
Carnifex [Twin-linked Devourer with Brainleech Worms, Twin-linked Devourer with Brainleech Worms]
Aegis Defense Line [Comms Relay]
++ Tyranids: Codex (2014) (Allied Detachment) ++
Hive Tyrant [Electroshock Grubs, Twin-linked Devourer with Brainleech Worms, Twin-linked Devourer with Brainleech Worms, Wings]
Mucolid Spore Cluster [Mucolid Spore]
Trygon Prime [The Reaper of Obliterax]
List two is a better tool box army. A TAC list if you will. I was thinking of splitting the hormagaunts in to 2, 15 man units? Would that be a good Idea.?
Hive Tyrant [Twin-linked Devourer with Brainleech Worms, Twin-linked Devourer with Brainleech Worms, Wings]
Hive Tyrant [Twin-linked Devourer with Brainleech Worms, Twin-linked Devourer with Brainleech Worms, Wings]
+ Elites +
[Malanthrope]
+ Troops +
Hormagaunt Brood
30x Hormagaunt [30x Toxin Sacs]
Mucolid Spore Cluster [Mucolid Spore]
+ Heavy Support +
Carnifex [Twin-linked Devourer with Brainleech Worms, Twin-linked Devourer with Brainleech Worms]
Mawloc
Trygon Prime [The Reaper of Obliterax]
Aegis Defense Line [Comms Relay]
++ Tyranids: Codex (2014) (Allied Detachment) ++
+ HQ +
Hive Tyrant [Twin-linked Devourer with Brainleech Worms, Twin-linked Devourer with Brainleech Worms, Wings]
Mucolid Spore Cluster [Mucolid Spore]
Spore Mine Cluster [3x Spore Mine]
Biovore Brood [Biovore, Biovore]
Well this is one is just all craziness.
Null overload. Not sure what to think o this one s I have not tested it. but it look to be a lot of fun and is fast in it's own way. Scorring could be a issue but I can be anywhere on the board when I wish to be.
List 3
Solidcrash wrote:
Any unit with infiltrate special rule you should use that in turn 1. Just same as deep strike in turn 1. Lictor can infiltrate.
Pre-deployment- place your own piece in opposition deployment zone but keep space for mawloc pop up. Hide your Lictor there and there.. Pray it stay out of line of sight.
In turn 2 your mawloc arrive with your luck and swallow freshman.
Jy2 wrote
That is one strategy you can run. However, running this type of strategy will depend on a number of factors:
1) Terrain. Is the terrain setup conducive to this strategy? Is there BLOS-terrain or ruins for your lictor to infiltrate in?
A) if there are no BLOS then I will keep my Lictor in reserve till need to - maelstrom = capture objective when card said so or wait till turn 5.
2) Your opponent's army. If your opponent is really shooty, then you might want to reserve him to deny your opponent the easy kill (again, this depends on terrain and whether you can hide him or not). If your opponent has a fast assault army, then you just may be making it easier for your opponent to assault by placing your lictor closer to him.
A) that is why I like add genestealer with broodlord behide BLOS and use the horror to pinning shooty unit. So they cannot overwatch.
3) Mission types. Playing Eternal War, yeah, fine. Playing Maelstrom missions (or Maelstrom secondary missions)? As jifel pointed out, you might want to reserve your lictors to come in on objectives later in the game.
A) study your opponent deployment first. You can infiltrate AFTER both of you deployments. If it is safe to infiltrate instead of deep strike in turn 2 then do it now.
4) What happens if the mawlocs do not come in? You are gambling on the mawloc coming in, but there is a 1/3 chance that it might not and now you've left your lictor out there to die.
A) true. Might need get Ravens for cheap tarpit to keep Lictor alive longer.. Or take double mawloc in bigger game as back up... All reserve roll fail to deep strike then have to gritted your teeth.... Cursed at your Dice God.
Heh. My choice to take in double Lictor is only when I have too many unit in reserve. If none at all or maelstrom objectives then either I do not include Lictor in my list or keep them in reserve.
2015/05/20 00:15:24
Subject: Re:The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (Eldar Tactica p.318 & 319)
shadowfinder wrote: Speaking of Tyrgon primes> I have to take one to a Major Tournament on the west coast this week end I have to take a trygon because of losing a big bet in a game.
I have two list That I have narrowed down. If I could get some feed back on List 1 or 2 that be great. list 3 is for fun and craziness.
SO these are the what I have come up with after getting feed back and some play testing. I have to take one of these to the
Guardian Cup 8 the Ocho. in 4 days. let me know what you think.
Both are Null deployment style list. with a solid back field unit/s for the ITC mission format.
List one. Has deployment option in that I can start on the board with a 2+ cover save if it is advantages too.
Hive Tyrant [Electroshock Grubs, Twin-linked Devourer with Brainleech Worms, Twin-linked Devourer with Brainleech Worms, Wings]
Hive Tyrant [Electroshock Grubs, Twin-linked Devourer with Brainleech Worms, Twin-linked Devourer with Brainleech Worms, Wings]
+ Elites +
Malanthrope Brood [Malanthrope]
+ Troops +
20x Hormagaunt [20x Toxin Sacs]
Mucolid Spore Cluster [Mucolid Spore]
+ Fast Attack +
Spore Mine Cluster [4x Spore Mine]
+ Heavy Support +
Biovore Brood [Biovore]
Carnifex [Twin-linked Devourer with Brainleech Worms, Twin-linked Devourer with Brainleech Worms]
Carnifex [Twin-linked Devourer with Brainleech Worms, Twin-linked Devourer with Brainleech Worms]
Aegis Defense Line [Comms Relay]
++ Tyranids: Codex (2014) (Allied Detachment) ++
Hive Tyrant [Electroshock Grubs, Twin-linked Devourer with Brainleech Worms, Twin-linked Devourer with Brainleech Worms, Wings]
Mucolid Spore Cluster [Mucolid Spore]
Trygon Prime [The Reaper of Obliterax]
List two is a better tool box army. A TAC list if you will. I was thinking of splitting the hormagaunts in to 2, 15 man units? Would that be a good Idea.?
Hive Tyrant [Twin-linked Devourer with Brainleech Worms, Twin-linked Devourer with Brainleech Worms, Wings]
Hive Tyrant [Twin-linked Devourer with Brainleech Worms, Twin-linked Devourer with Brainleech Worms, Wings]
+ Elites +
[Malanthrope]
+ Troops +
Hormagaunt Brood
30x Hormagaunt [30x Toxin Sacs]
Mucolid Spore Cluster [Mucolid Spore]
+ Heavy Support +
Carnifex [Twin-linked Devourer with Brainleech Worms, Twin-linked Devourer with Brainleech Worms]
Mawloc
Trygon Prime [The Reaper of Obliterax]
Aegis Defense Line [Comms Relay]
++ Tyranids: Codex (2014) (Allied Detachment) ++
+ HQ +
Hive Tyrant [Twin-linked Devourer with Brainleech Worms, Twin-linked Devourer with Brainleech Worms, Wings]
Mucolid Spore Cluster [Mucolid Spore]
Spore Mine Cluster [3x Spore Mine]
Biovore Brood [Biovore, Biovore]
Well this is one is just all craziness.
Null overload. Not sure what to think o this one s I have not tested it. but it look to be a lot of fun and is fast in it's own way. Scorring could be a issue but I can be anywhere on the board when I wish to be.
List 3
Hive Tyrant [Electroshock Grubs, Twin-linked Devourer with Brainleech Worms, Twin-linked Devourer with Brainleech Worms, Wings]
Hive Tyrant [Electroshock Grubs, Twin-linked Devourer with Brainleech Worms, Twin-linked Devourer with Brainleech Worms, Wings]
+ Troops +
Mucolid Spore Cluster [Mucolid Spore]
Mucolid Spore Cluster [Mucolid Spore]
+ Fast Attack +
Hive Crone
Spore Mine Cluster [3x Spore Mine]
Spore Mine Cluster [3x Spore Mine]
+ Heavy Support +
Carnifex Brood
Carnifex [Spine Banks, Twin-linked Devourer with Brainleech Worms, Twin-linked Devourer with Brainleech Worms]
Mawloc
Trygon Prime [The Reaper of Obliterax]
Aegis Defense Line [Comms Relay]
++ Tyranids: Codex (2014) (Allied Detachment) ++
+ HQ +
Hive Tyrant [Electroshock Grubs, Twin-linked Devourer with Brainleech Worms, Twin-linked Devourer with Brainleech Worms, Wings]
3x Ripper Swarm [3x Deep Strike]
Spore Mine Cluster [3x Spore Mine]
Mawloc
Do you have to use the Reaper? The Trygon is already considered overcosted, and the Reaper only excaberates that problem. Maw-Claws would be a decent choice though, especially if you pull off the preferred enemy(don't count on it though).
As to your lists, I really like the first one best. I've always liked Dakkafexes in pods, because they're two scoring units in one and they can be placed where they're needed most.
Perhaps with the points saved on a Reaper you have enough to upgrade your ADL into a bastion?
Might have to shave off a hormagaunt or two as well.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/05/20 00:18:51
shadowfinder wrote: Speaking of Tyrgon primes> I have to take one to a Major Tournament on the west coast this week end I have to take a trygon because of losing a big bet in a game.
I have two list That I have narrowed down. If I could get some feed back on List 1 or 2 that be great. list 3 is for fun and craziness.
SO these are the what I have come up with after getting feed back and some play testing. I have to take one of these to the
Guardian Cup 8 the Ocho. in 4 days. let me know what you think.
Both are Null deployment style list. with a solid back field unit/s for the ITC mission format.
List one. Has deployment option in that I can start on the board with a 2+ cover save if it is advantages too.
Hive Tyrant [Electroshock Grubs, Twin-linked Devourer with Brainleech Worms, Twin-linked Devourer with Brainleech Worms, Wings]
Hive Tyrant [Electroshock Grubs, Twin-linked Devourer with Brainleech Worms, Twin-linked Devourer with Brainleech Worms, Wings]
+ Elites +
Malanthrope Brood [Malanthrope]
+ Troops +
20x Hormagaunt [20x Toxin Sacs]
Mucolid Spore Cluster [Mucolid Spore]
+ Fast Attack +
Spore Mine Cluster [4x Spore Mine]
+ Heavy Support +
Biovore Brood [Biovore]
Carnifex [Twin-linked Devourer with Brainleech Worms, Twin-linked Devourer with Brainleech Worms]
Carnifex [Twin-linked Devourer with Brainleech Worms, Twin-linked Devourer with Brainleech Worms]
Aegis Defense Line [Comms Relay]
++ Tyranids: Codex (2014) (Allied Detachment) ++
Hive Tyrant [Electroshock Grubs, Twin-linked Devourer with Brainleech Worms, Twin-linked Devourer with Brainleech Worms, Wings]
Mucolid Spore Cluster [Mucolid Spore]
Trygon Prime [The Reaper of Obliterax]
List two is a better tool box army. A TAC list if you will. I was thinking of splitting the hormagaunts in to 2, 15 man units? Would that be a good Idea.?
Hive Tyrant [Twin-linked Devourer with Brainleech Worms, Twin-linked Devourer with Brainleech Worms, Wings]
Hive Tyrant [Twin-linked Devourer with Brainleech Worms, Twin-linked Devourer with Brainleech Worms, Wings]
+ Elites +
[Malanthrope]
+ Troops +
Hormagaunt Brood
30x Hormagaunt [30x Toxin Sacs]
Mucolid Spore Cluster [Mucolid Spore]
+ Heavy Support +
Carnifex [Twin-linked Devourer with Brainleech Worms, Twin-linked Devourer with Brainleech Worms]
Mawloc
Trygon Prime [The Reaper of Obliterax]
Aegis Defense Line [Comms Relay]
++ Tyranids: Codex (2014) (Allied Detachment) ++
+ HQ +
Hive Tyrant [Twin-linked Devourer with Brainleech Worms, Twin-linked Devourer with Brainleech Worms, Wings]
Mucolid Spore Cluster [Mucolid Spore]
Spore Mine Cluster [3x Spore Mine]
Biovore Brood [Biovore, Biovore]
Well this is one is just all craziness.
Null overload. Not sure what to think o this one s I have not tested it. but it look to be a lot of fun and is fast in it's own way. Scorring could be a issue but I can be anywhere on the board when I wish to be.
List 3
Hive Tyrant [Electroshock Grubs, Twin-linked Devourer with Brainleech Worms, Twin-linked Devourer with Brainleech Worms, Wings]
Hive Tyrant [Electroshock Grubs, Twin-linked Devourer with Brainleech Worms, Twin-linked Devourer with Brainleech Worms, Wings]
+ Troops +
Mucolid Spore Cluster [Mucolid Spore]
Mucolid Spore Cluster [Mucolid Spore]
+ Fast Attack +
Hive Crone
Spore Mine Cluster [3x Spore Mine]
Spore Mine Cluster [3x Spore Mine]
+ Heavy Support +
Carnifex Brood
Carnifex [Spine Banks, Twin-linked Devourer with Brainleech Worms, Twin-linked Devourer with Brainleech Worms]
Mawloc
Trygon Prime [The Reaper of Obliterax]
Aegis Defense Line [Comms Relay]
++ Tyranids: Codex (2014) (Allied Detachment) ++
+ HQ +
Hive Tyrant [Electroshock Grubs, Twin-linked Devourer with Brainleech Worms, Twin-linked Devourer with Brainleech Worms, Wings]
3x Ripper Swarm [3x Deep Strike]
Spore Mine Cluster [3x Spore Mine]
Mawloc
Do you have to use the Reaper? The Trygon is already considered overcosted, and the Reaper only excaberates that problem. Maw-Claws would be a decent choice though, especially if you pull off the preferred enemy(don't count on it though).
As to your lists, I really like the first one best. I've always liked Dakkafexes in pods, because they're two scoring units in one and they can be placed where they're needed most.
Perhaps with the points saved on a Reaper you have enough to upgrade your ADL into a bastion?
Might have to shave off a hormagaunts or two as well.
Unfortunately the reaper has to stay. The bet was he got to pick one model, and the rules for it, that I had in my collection. And he choose the trygon with the reaper . I use it is a fluffy subterranean assault list I run for new people cause it looks really cool.
As for the trygon he is not all that bad of a unit really. he could stand to be cheaper I do agree with that. But he is still a good unit that with the reaper hits first and instant kill is a nice bonus when it works. The plus 1 strength makes him very good at killing transports, I have been pleased to find out.
Just to make sure I understand the shred rule. Does it allow me to reroll armor pins?
I tried the bastion and it would in my area destroyed to easily first turn. The ADL can't be killed and you can hide spore mines completely out of line of site really easy. With it only 1 inch away from the table edge makes it very had to get line of site to the units manning it turn one.
Verse army's with ways to ignore cover and barrage weapons I just place more units with in 2 in. to make it harder to kill everything. Works really well. Most of the time I my opponent wastes two rounds of shooting and has placed his units in a piece meal fashion across the table making them easy targets to take apart. First turn very few armies can kill the units on the board behind the ADL or the one units that on the other side of the table from the ADL making sure I don't get tabled.
I am liking the first one more and more.
2015/05/20 08:08:20
Subject: The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (Eldar Tactica p.318 & 319)
Iechine wrote: Ymgarl factor is 40 wopping points, but it lets me stay alive against massed no ap attacks, cut down larger groups, or consistently double out marines/suits, not to mention tough armor threats.
Did you honestly get 40pts worth out of Ymgarl for your Meleerant? I've run a very similar Flyrant in my last tournament,
Imo, Rending Claws (for AV 14) and Electroshock Grubs give much better worth in tactical use, and it's cheaper. Other threats in melee are mostly AP 2 so Ymgarl doesn't really help. And Egrubs helps with the defense (Wall of Death).
2015/05/20 08:17:34
Subject: The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (Eldar Tactica p.318 & 319)
Strength 9 on the charge is very useful when you really need it. Im confused why you would rather have Rending claws on AV14, as that makes your tyrant S7 on the charge needing 6's followed by the D3 (as opposed to just needing 5's).
Iechine wrote:Hey thanks. Honestly the only thing I am taking a second hard look at in my list is the Mawloc. She did absolutely terrible in all 6 games, only really contributing strongly in the last one. Not once did she come on target.
It's worth pointing out that I didnt play Necrons, and I think they would give me the hardest time of all. I am halfway considering a Crone in place of the Mawloc as a reliable source of strong AP4 for Warrior blobs. But that may not be enough and Biovores start looking like a better alternative.
325 is expensive I agree, but he does everything you wish the Swarmlord could do and more. He's fast, keeps a mobile 4+ cover, can reliably double out MEQ, is a huge threat to any vehicle, and can adapt to the situation in combat. He provides a tough choice for the opponent's target priority, and working in harmony with the Malanthrope you can use it to your advantage.
As I told you, its not the most optional tyrant build, but it will shred cron units it gets into combat with, and without it, our game would not have been nearly as close, it was the only thing that gave you any kind of board control in the early turns.
997Turbo wrote:I also played in Killadelphia with Tyranids (aqua & teal), and will say with certainty that Tyranids struggle greatly against decurion Necrons. I had two games against them and if it wasn't for one of the missions being killpoints they would have been total blowouts. We just get absolutely crushed in board control, and I really dont see an easy solution. I ran:
Anytime a mawloc or licor popped up, it immediately disappeard. The Crone and Flyrants flew around achieveing almost nothing beyond kiling Scarabs, Ghost Arks, and min squads. Assualt and Obsec seem like the only real way of dealing with them. Unfortunately, Wraiths will simply shred any of our assualt units and our obsec is very lacking. I'm thinking about experimenting with Tervigons or Skytyrant, but really don't see much coming of it.
Curious to hear everyones thoughts.
Yea I am honestly considering dropping the malwocs, or going down to one for NOVA for spot killing units. With the introduction of mass crons, and with tau seemingly taking a back seat in the current east coast meta, its usefulness has gone down alot.
Do you feel that one of the reasons why your meleerant did so well was because your opponents under-estimated it and basically ignored it enough so that it made it into combat? Overall, how do you feel about his resiliency? Better than the dimachaeron in a spore?
I am thinking about adding a little cc-option into my bug list. The meleerant gives me options now.
Not always, but I did definitely feel that way on two games. In one my opponent outright said "You told me about him but I just kinda glossed over it", which was after he scouted his Onager Squadron up turn 1. I then seized, and the superbeast was on them immediately turn 1.
His survivability is augmented by me having 10 psychers, almost guaranteeing he gets catalyst supplied (and he did). Plus his movable jink save and a malanthrope positioned to be able to run with fleet to keep him in a protective bubble. Often times I had people prioritizing the
Malanthrope first. That and a 12" movement had him in combat every one of the six games by turn two, which is worth its weight in gold over a spore dima...if I could pay 50 more points or so for the cost of a dima in pod to ensure it got in to combat turn 2 consistently, then there is
your cost effectiveness right there. Ymgarl factor is 40 wopping points, but it lets me stay alive against massed no ap attacks, cut down larger groups, or consistently double out marines/suits, not to mention tough armor threats.
To be honest I took him as a 'fun' and silly option for my list, but now I wont leave home without him. *shrug* Krootman and I discussed it a bit about it being a supposed point sink, but he pointed out that it's board control is massive...I never snapped my fingers and wished
I'd taken a 4th dakka flyrant instead.
How do you think he would fair against Wraithknights or Riptides?
In our game, it killed a wk, and I was pretty scared of it...the only way I was able to advance my knights was keeping them fully in terrain so that I would at least go first against it. That tyrant combind with parxosism is a pretty nasty combo. The only thing is, I wounder if there is a way to make it a little bit cheaper and still keep it an effective cc monster. Especially now that wraithknigths are no longer a thing
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/05/20 12:38:16
2015/05/20 12:37:39
Subject: The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (Eldar Tactica p.318 & 319)
Rending Claws equals S8-10 on the charge, plus chance to cause damage in later rounds, which is pretty good use of 5 points compared to not be able to hurt AV 14 at all in subsequent rounds with S7.
My main point is that I don't see how Ymgarls is worth 40 points. The difference between S8 and S9 is too small (still can't double out T5) and you can't even chose the same morph twice in a row, for some derp reason.
2015/05/20 13:25:08
Subject: The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (Eldar Tactica p.318 & 319)
I am with nib on this I say ro the rending claws and put regeneration or something else on the tyrant to make it last longer. If you are running a melee tyrant the formation with the garg's would be really good. just keep it small and have them trail behind him.
2015/05/20 13:28:37
Subject: The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (Eldar Tactica p.318 & 319)
N.I.B. wrote: Rending Claws equals S8-10 on the charge, plus chance to cause damage in later rounds, which is pretty good use of 5 points compared to not be able to hurt AV 14 at all in subsequent rounds with S7.
My main point is that I don't see how Ymgarls is worth 40 points. The difference between S8 and S9 is too small (still can't double out T5) and you can't even chose the same morph twice in a row, for some derp reason.
Yea I agree, especially with wks gone now t8 is no longer really a thing
2015/05/20 13:49:56
Subject: The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (Eldar Tactica p.318 & 319)
I keep trying to find a way to want to run endless swarm but the lack of OS makes me worried it will not do what I want it to do. Part of me wants to run skytyrant, skyblight and an allied formation to get a malanthrope some rippers and another flyrant in there.
The biggest issue is needing more gargs which is fine...50 would be a lot of fun. It is the three harpies/crones I don't own.
Words of wisdom by Prophet40k
That game put my faith in Khorne to the test. My table-neighbor looked at the match up and said "Here you're going to need these more than I will" and handed me a bag of Jello shots. They must have pleased Khorne because I walked out 11-2.
Now looking at another list with MORE tyrants and MORE mawlocks, I said to myself. "Oh well looks like it's time for another beer. It'll take the sting out of this. LOL"
2015/05/20 13:57:18
Subject: The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (Eldar Tactica p.318 & 319)
I did some mathammer on Flyrants VS WKs, so figured I'd share. First off though - yeah, you can only use ONE melee weapon at a time, That means that you can take a LWBS/Reaper for WKs and the Maw-Claws for vehicles, but I really don't see the point. If you have the Reaper, you're Str7 anyway so can glance IKs on a 6 - better if you have AG and get the charge, or use Ymgarl for the +Str (though I'd probably sit in cover and let an IK charge me for the Haywire WoD, at least until the Knight is weakened). If using Maw-Claws, you get a 2/3 chance to pen instead of glance on 6s, unless you have buffed your strength with something else. The Pref Enemy from Maw-Claws isn't really that fantastic either since OA renders it obsolete. I guess it could be a cool thing to try - especially in Skytyrant as Pref Enemy will buff the Gargoyles, but I don't think it's necessarily that great for killing IKs?
Anyway, Wraithknight math. Fyi these figures are slightly rounded so there will be some slight room for error - but which option is best remains fairly clear. All assume OA and the Reaper (so +1 Str and Shred). With just that, a Flyrant will deal 2.77 wounds (Str 7 and 5 atks). Add on the Ymgarl factor and you have 2 choices - the attacks or the Str. Choosing Attacks will net you 3.48 wounds (6 atks, Str 7), whilst the Str will get you 3.79 (5 atks, Str 8) - the Str is the best option. If you factor in a charge and AG, things look a little better: without Ymgarl you deal 4.98 wounds (Str 8, 6 Atks). With it and picking Atks, you get 5.83 wounds (Str 8, 7 Atks); choosing Str, you deal 6.69 (Str 9, 6 Atks), so again Str is better. Note that in all these cases the FNP has not been factored in, so even the most decked out Flyrant is statistically unlikely to be able to solo a WK down from full health. Also, I wasn't sure if 6s causing ID allowed FNP saves on the WK since it's gargantuan, so I decided to leave it for now.
2015/05/20 19:11:56
Subject: The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (Eldar Tactica p.318 & 319)
Iechine wrote: Pretty sexy. I feel Superbeast has his place.
In my meta when I run a melee Tyrant he is always the 1st Tyrant to die. In games where opponents don't have the firepower to kill a Tyrant, I'm probably winning anyways. In games where the opponent can kill a Tyrant in 1 round of shooting, the Melee Tyrant is a very expensive distraction unit. A great solution to Decurion Destroyers though if you can convince you opponent not to shoot at
Also, I'm pretty confident there is no situation where Rending Claws (or Maw Claws) out perform a RoO or Smash. If the RoO Can't do it, you want to Smash. With OA, smash is hitting 78% of the time. Because RC's only come into play with 1 in 6 hits, you would need to hit at least 4.67 times, which happens to be exactly the number of times you will hit with 2 CCW's. However, smash rerolls pens, and RC's don't, and Smash is a higher strength and pens more, and RC's don't. If you had the option to take Crushing Claws it would make sense, but since you don't, no need to waste points on RCs.
2015/05/20 21:52:38
Subject: The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (Eldar Tactica p.318 & 319)
In my testing (not full blown statistical mathhammer, just tons and tons of dice rolling) you want to stay at S7 vs a wraithknight with the reaper.
ID does D3 wounds to Gargantuans and ignores their FNP roll. S7 Re-rolls results of 1-4, fishing for more 6's. S8 or 9 does more wounds on the average, but fewer are 6's as less dice get re-rolled (typically).
Additionally, a solo SBT (super beast tyrant) is still no match for a D weapon WK on the best day - just a single swing back has the chance to make him disappear. Skytyrant Swarm helps in thsi specific matchup - the WK is not a character, so can't challenge out the tyrant. His attacks are wasted on the gargoyles. A stomp still has the chance to delete him at I1 though, so risk is still involved. Additionally the gargoyles come with poison 6+ stock, so no upgrades are needed for them to wound the WK as well if you're lucky. Also the chance to blind it, maybe.
So, for the ablative wounds while getting to the enemy, as well as the protection from non character beaters that would challenge and punk the tyrant, i think the skytyrant swarm is definitely worth it. It also gives the SBT 18" synapse, which can come in handy for the rest of your army. Gargoyles are so cheap, and make the unit footprint so big, that it can even do well for grabbing different spread out objectives during maelstrom games.
Been out of the game for awhile, trying to find time to get back into it.
2015/05/20 22:01:38
Subject: The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (Eldar Tactica p.318 & 319)
tetrisphreak wrote: In my testing (not full blown statistical mathhammer, just tons and tons of dice rolling) you want to stay at S7 vs a wraithknight with the reaper.
ID does D3 wounds to Gargantuans and ignores their FNP roll. S7 Re-rolls results of 1-4, fishing for more 6's. S8 or 9 does more wounds on the average, but fewer are 6's as less dice get re-rolled (typically).
Additionally, a solo SBT (super beast tyrant) is still no match for a D weapon WK on the best day - just a single swing back has the chance to make him disappear. Skytyrant Swarm helps in thsi specific matchup - the WK is not a character, so can't challenge out the tyrant. His attacks are wasted on the gargoyles. A stomp still has the chance to delete him at I1 though, so risk is still involved. Additionally the gargoyles come with poison 6+ stock, so no upgrades are needed for them to wound the WK as well if you're lucky. Also the chance to blind it, maybe.
So, for the ablative wounds while getting to the enemy, as well as the protection from non character beaters that would challenge and punk the tyrant, i think the skytyrant swarm is definitely worth it. It also gives the SBT 18" synapse, which can come in handy for the rest of your army. Gargoyles are so cheap, and make the unit footprint so big, that it can even do well for grabbing different spread out objectives during maelstrom games.
Whilst I did initially wonder if the Atks were better than the Str, the 6s are factored in in my math above, so assuming I haven't ballsed up somewhere you still come out slightly ahead with Str. However, what is not considered in the math is the increased variance caused by getting more chances to hit 6s - and those 6s each causing D3 wounds. If you want to play a little bit riskier or need the thing dead, then the Atks are certainly not a bad choice, as you are (slightly) more likely to cause enough wounds to kill it dead (equally you will be more likely to fluff completely though). Str is reliable, Atks are risky but potentially higher payoff basically. It's not a huge difference either way in any case.
I agree that Skytyrant is definitely worth it tbh - whilst I don't necessarily disagree that the lone Superbeast can be very good, you gain a lot by being in a huge brood of Gargoyles.
2015/05/20 22:01:46
Subject: The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (Eldar Tactica p.318 & 319)
For what its worth, I would probably ignore the WK and send SBT (I'm happy to have coined that BTW, as is Rob Zombie) after the Eldar players supporting units.
Meta's are all different, tournaments not so much. I took a TAC list and found SBT to have his place among the other Tyrants and Tervigon units. Thats about 10 games with this list in a east coast meta, I enjoy the flexibility of it and what it can do.
I, however, am still a new player and think it could do a lot better in the hands of someone more gifted and skilled at 40k. In a meta devoid of the new WK, I still feel he's a solid pick.
tetrisphreak wrote: In my testing (not full blown statistical mathhammer, just tons and tons of dice rolling) you want to stay at S7 vs a wraithknight with the reaper.
ID does D3 wounds to Gargantuans and ignores their FNP roll. S7 Re-rolls results of 1-4, fishing for more 6's. S8 or 9 does more wounds on the average, but fewer are 6's as less dice get re-rolled (typically).
You are right that there are fewer 6's, but generally you do better anyways.
Wounds = unsaved normal Wounds after FNP.
Bonus = Wounds caused by ID results.
2015/05/20 22:16:21
Subject: The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (Eldar Tactica p.318 & 319)
Is this factoring in the fact that a 6 is ID, which ignores FNP and does d3 wounds?
If an OA tyrants with the reaper charges a WK for 6 S7 attacks, it should cause 3.94 wounds by my math. May be wrong here.
My working was: 4 hits, 5.3333 after OA. 1.7666 wounds, 0.8833 of which are ID. After shred, 1.1888 more wounds, 0.5944 of which are ID. So 2.95 wounds (think I did typo that one when recording these), factoring IDs in 4.425, then back to 3.94 after saves - so yeah you're right! Unsure where something went wrong there, and cba to go check right now tbh. I guess it means my figures are lower than they should be if anything?
Edit: Ninja'd, tag's analysis is better!
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/05/20 22:17:13
2015/05/21 02:12:34
Subject: The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (Eldar Tactica p.318 & 319)
So, I have a thought regarding Raveners. How does everyone feel about them if supported by Venomthropes (cover), The Swarmlord (furious charge/psychic support), and 3 deep striking dakkafexes in spores? Thinking of running about 18 of them, in a few squads.
More for a fun game, but it's something I've been wanting to try out, since Raveners can't get combat biomorphs.
Seeing how we've got some math going. I am still liking HyperToxic Node, and I am ruminating on the loadout...
Base: Winged Tyrant, Toxic, MawClaws, Thorax....230 points I am seriously considering Miasma Cannon. Because of the Special Rule, it might be viable....255 if I take it. Thoughts?
If you don't like MawClaws, Rending+ Old Adversary cost 20 points...? Base of 240...?
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/05/21 03:22:30
I have to take a trygon because of losing a big bet in a game.
(more)
(building)
(less)
. I use it is a fluffy subterranean assault list I run for new people cause it looks really cool.
Because of the Special Rule, it might be viable....255 if I take it. Thoughts?