Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

This is an army-wide rule for the entire Tyranid codex.

At the beginning of the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th turns, if the Tyranid player has any reserves, he may choose a mutation from the list as a first stage, second stage, and third stage mutation. (select each stage before making reserve rolls for the turn they apply on.) Any codex:Tyranids units that arrive from reserve on turn 2 benefit from the stage 1 mutation for the remainder of the game. Any that arrive on turn 3 benefit from both the stage 1 and stage 2 mutation from the remainder of the game. Likewise, any that arrive on turn 4 benefit from all 3 chosen mutations for the remainder of the game.

(rules edit: Models which left the table to enter ongoing reserves do not gain any mutations past what they already had when they entered play the first time. This includes models returned to reserves from deep strike mishaps.)

mutations:
- +1 WS and I
- +1 A
- +1 T
- +1 armor save (any past 2+ has no effect)
- +1 invuln save (any past 3++ has no effect)
- +1 FNP (grants 6+ FNP if the model has none)
- +1 BS and S of ranged biomorphs
- +2 Ld (any past 10 has no effect)
- +1 poison attacks (grants poison 6+ if model has no poison attacks)
- +1 S
- Stealth

Any mutations gained are assumed to be part of the base stats of a model.

Design note: I wanted to finally get the "masters of adaptation" theme of the Tyranid army onto the tabletop, so I came up with this. With this rule, the local hivemind (player) can tailor his army mid-game against what he's fighting, just like what we see in the Tyranid fluff.

Seems OP at first thought, except that the basic reserves rule from the core book still applies. This means only half of your units could ever benefit from the rule. Further, you will be splitting your army into small waves to receive these abilities, which is generally a terrible battle strategy, allowing opponents to deal with one wave and then the next rather than the entire army threatening them at once. Therefore, it stands to reason that the mutations need to be quite good to offset the loss of playing with random reserve rolls and splitting into waves.
If anything, they might still be too weak to merit half your army waiting off the table for what could be 80% of the game, especially without mycetic spores existing anymore.

Thinking of playtesting this when we try out the new nid dex soon.

*tumbleweed rolls by*
>.>
<.<

It seems OP because it is. Don't think about it as ''over all most units won't benefit enough to make it OP'' but instead think of it as ''Hey, that single unit benefits enough to be OP, lets change this'' with my main example being Trygon/Mawlock who would *always* take the plus 1 save for a 2+ save T6 5 wound monstrousity right in front of the enemy army, possibly in multiples or a Hive Crone hitting with a strength 9 (!) Vector strike. How about Bs 5 Flyrants with strength 7 Brainleech worms? Or 2+ invul Zoans.

No, this is FAR to much of a buff to be granted to EVERY tyranid in reserve. I didn't even get to how stupid it would be with 2 or even 3 of those options! The whole idea would mean every tyranid model would have to go up at lest 15% which i assume you don't want.

How i would fit mutations into the rules would be like this.

Unstable Genetics. 25pts, effects whole unit/brood. A unit with unstable genetics treats all difficult terrain as dangerous terrain to show their frailty but for every 5 wounds a unit with this rule cause's OR sustains they gain a Mutation point which can be spent on the corresponding table for perminant buffs.

+1 I and A
Fleet and Ignore Difficult Terrain
May take its armor save against weapons with an AP equal to their own (E.G a 4+ save could be taken against AP 4)
Stealth and hit'n'run
+ 1 strength
Fearess

Alex

It seems OP because it is.

I highly disagree. I've been playing since 2nd, and if there's one thing that has held true in every game I've ever been in or spectated, it's that going heavy on reserves and splitting your army into waves is near suicidal. Out of maybe a thousand games, the amount of times I've seen heavy reserves without special rules (ie drop pods, daemon deep strikes etc.) played to a win is...well, I can't recall ANY.

A Mawloc unsupported in the middle of an enemy army is a dead mawloc. 2+ isn't going to change that. Even if I had 3 immortal mawlocs, they're hardly game-altering. Unless they somehow manage to sneak a wound past look out sir on a T3 warlord or something. I wouldn't have blinked if they were given 2+ armor in the new codex, and I doubt most other people would.

You mention 2++ zoans even though I had (any past 3++ has no effect) making me think you didn't actually read carefully and just kinda did some knee jerk comments.

S9 vector strike? Past s8, the AP of a weapon starts mattering a lot more than the strength. You go from wounding 90% of models on a 2 to...wounding 91% of them on a 2. You do improve your vehicle penning by 17%, so it at least has some effect, but once again, hardly worth noting.

BS 5 flyrants with s7 shots... Yeah that's pretty good. I think I'd probably want to kill those right when they came on, which isn't much of a change, because I've always targeted flyrants first anyway.

I think if you actually tried it out, you'd be surprised at how mediocre the results are.

We haven't gotten to do a battle with it, as a couple bug players are still examining their new book for the best way to make use of it, but my prediction for most of the games is either:
A: bugs get tabled with a ton of stuff in reserve.
B: super bugs show up just in time to watch the game end, or have most of the enemy army shoot them to death with everything they have.

Who said anything about going really heavy on reserve? There is no reason to put units that don't want to be in reserve (Termagants, Walking Warriors, Generally waking stuff) in reserve othewse you are asking to be tabled. A good kind of army would be a Tervigon and some gants with some help from a Venomthrope or two, that gives you good objective scoring potential and very little threat of being tabled before your stuff comes in. Then in reserve you will want your Flyrant, Crone and choice of Marlocks/Trygons and maybe Deathleaper and Shrikes (WS 10 anyone???) who will come in and put instant pressure on the enemy.

Who said a mawlock was unsupported? Unless just a single Mawlock comes in and nothing else does (Unlikely) there will always be something to play target saturation with. statistically that Mawlock can absorb 80 (!) Broadside missile shots (80 shots, 40 hits, 30 wounds), that's a enough to kill 2 non-upgraded Mawlock, you are doubling his survivability for no points. Then next turn you have deathleaper acting as a homing beacon. Apart from that, going full reserve is a CHOICE which has it's own PRO'S and CON'S. No one forces you to go full reserve, so why should 'Nids get a FREE upgrade just for going into reserve? Don't you think that the potential to have a 2+ save is worth some points? It is simply to much of a buff for no points, can you agree with that?

It costs time, not points. And time in a game that might only last 5 turns is precious.

On the mawlocs, you seem to think ap2 doesn't exist. Doubling his armor save isn't the same thing as doubling his survivability. The thing just popped up somewhere in your army, you should have plasma, grav, ion accelerators, anything rending, a thundernator squad, or one of the many special characters or monstrous critters that can quickly chop up a mawloc with an ap2 weapon, possibly with an instadeath effect, such as one hit from a nemesis dreadknight or a furioso librarian with force axe. If the opponent can't handle a 2+ armor, the issue isn't the armor, it's that guy's list-building that needs looking at.

The army split you mention could very easily be tabled by a suicide sternguard drop pod. They get first turn or seize, drop in, combat squad, half tear up the nearby venom with ignore cover ammo, the other half use their combi plasma on the tervi. Statistically that's only 4 wounds, but 6 isn't impossible. (A couple lascannon shots from the heavies could help finish it off, or, god help the tyranid player, if you just have a larger amount of drop pod assault.). And if that happens, your 30-gant squad (or squads) nearby (it has to be 30 now to make the mom a troop choice,) take a bunch of wounds and aren't in synapse anymore, so they might be heading for the hills. All that could be done on their first turn, before the bugs have had a turn. Again, god help you if you roll badly on turn two reserves. Statistics are fine and all, but if I can get perils every round on Mephiston and make him kill himself for the opponent with no help, I surely can fail a bunch of 3+ reserve rolls and end up with jack left to fight as my enemy takes turn 3.

I've seen 2k point armies table other 2k point armies before they got their turn two. What makes you think a 2k point army won't be able to table a 1500 pt army? It's actually pretty easy with bugs. Kill the synapse, then force ld checks on the hordes. I'll never understand why some people willingly try to fight the small bugs while ignoring a synapse nearby.

And the single points of stats really aren't that powerful.
Have you ever been playing a game, and someone remembers a stat on their unit wrong? Like after the game "oh, turns out my haemonculi are init4, those combats should've been simultaneous!" Or "oh man I should've been wounding your troops on 3's!" (In fact, one of the times I played against daemons, I thought bloodletters were T4, and I rolled as if they were all game. I was the more experienced player, so the other guy didn't question it when I said my fire warriors wounded them on 3's (this was previous Ed. Tau.) I won the battle and then realized I had buffed all the troops in his army by accident.)
In the grand scale of the battle, those single number variances aren't THAT ridiculous. Each number of the die is still just 17% success rate, until you get to the upper half where each point is worth very little. (BS going from 5 to 6 is only about a 2.something success rate added, for example, and nothing if you were already re rolling misses.)

Your actual battle plan can easily make up for a difference in stats.

If regular armies can bring down D weapon-toting super heavies (saw a game last week where a normal ultra marines list took down a war hound scout and won the game with a massive VP difference,) then they can handle a few stat points being thrown here or there.

I agree with Alex. It gives you too much flexibility and theres way too much book-keeping involved.

I like the basic idea though, however, I think it needs to be toned down, simplified, and/or made to roll on random tables like everything else in the game

A simple "all Tyranid units that enter the game from reserves recieve the Preferred Enemy special rule" would probably do it.

Also, have you read the new bugs? I have. They need some help.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Dakkamite wrote:
I agree with Alex. It gives you too much flexibility and theres way too much book-keeping involved.

Here's how our bug players have already prepped for it: make little 1, 2 and 3 markers. Then write what their choices are on the army list once they get to them. Done.

A simple "all Tyranid units that enter the game from reserves recieve the Preferred Enemy special rule" would probably do it.

The issue I have is I don't find that fun or engaging in gameplay. Having a lot of options is a lot more fun than getting a static buff. It gives you the chance to play it well, or play it poorly.

Maybe I'm just better at explaining this rule in person, because our whole gaming group wants to see it on the table.

niv-mizzet wrote:


On the mawlocs, you seem to think ap2 doesn't exist. Doubling his armor save isn't the same thing as doubling his survivability. The thing just popped up somewhere in your army, you should have plasma, grav, ion accelerators, anything rending, a thundernator squad, or one of the many special characters or monstrous critters that can quickly chop up a mawloc with an ap2 weapon, possibly with an instadeath effect, such as one hit from a nemesis dreadknight or a furioso librarian with force axe. If the opponent can't handle a 2+ armor, the issue isn't the armor, it's that guy's list-building that needs looking at.

You seem to think Orks don't exist, or other Tyranid players or Non Flying Circus Daemons. Unless you where tailoring these armies usually have very little AP 2 weaponry that is effective and regularly taken. Power Klaws won't cause enough wounds in one turn, neither will non daemon weapon princes who will both die by return hits (Strength 10 smash insta gibs princes) or the Mawlock will Hit'n'run out of combat. Maybe you don't know what Target Saturation is, where 3 T6 2+ save Monsters are at your door step and i doubt many balanced armies can bring that much fire power to bare in on turn. I realise them all coming in is at the roll of a dice but the potential threat to a gun line this poses would be ridiculous for no point cost. I bet a can name a lot more AP>2 weaponery then you can name AP 2 and under weaponery, ergo, you massively increased it's survivability. There is no wiggle room, increasing save increases durability.

As for my army that suicide sternguard army will in turn be blown out of he sky by interceptor tau. What if he takes 2 single Venom broods, would you waste a whole extra combat squad firing at that instead of the Tervigon? Every army has counters, but this list does Objective capturing well while putting pressure (E.G Monstrous Creatures) right up in the enemies face. Kill one Mawlock, fine. I am sure it did a fair bit of damage from below and I doubt you can handle the Flyrant/Other Mawlocks just as well, meaning BOOM, Gun lines are now in combat and usually royally screwed.

Saying single stat boosts mean little is a terrible way to look at things. There is a MASSIVE difference between a 4+ save and a 5+ save, as well as T 3 and T 4 which both help a lot vs small arms fire and in the case of toughness instant death. + 1 BS on the Hive Tyrant or Hive Crone makes them monster shooters, especially with + 1 strength and TL meaning very few shots will miss. A WS 9 Hive Tyrant is hit on 5's not 4's, big difference. You cant be serious with what you said.

Dakkamite has it right, simple rules are always better for game play then ones like these. If you want to make it more 'cinimatic' only us 3 that can only be applied once such as Proffered Enemy, + 1 for Poison to wound them (I.E 4+ Poison wounds them on 5+) and an option for Fleet+Move Through Cover. All 3 rules are easy to remember, make quite small differences but can be helpful. This is the kind of rule I'd like to play against rather then this where each monster will have different stats.

Honestly, your enormous variety of buffs just seems to me to be a conscious or unconscious way to make sure every single Tyranid gets precisely what you want it to have, in order to circumvent its counters, rather than actually forcing choices that could add depth to the game

"Oh no, he always ID my warriors with S8, good thing I can just give them T5 for free" etc etc

My advice is to tone it down a bit (a lot), and instead get your specific mutations from destroying enemies in melee or something.

Had a play test finally. Since I said that dakka was crying OP about the rule, a tau guy brought farsight/shadowsun bomb with triptides.

Bugs guy used +1 T first, then fnp 6+ second. (He had a big shrike unit that he wanted T5 on.)

Bugs were almost tabled on tau turn 3 (literally 3 gants left that didn't flee). Bugs got their reserves split between turn 2 and 3. Ended up getting tabled on tau turn 5.

I forgot how sickening the firepower is from the farsight bomb.