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So I couldn't really tell if this was already answered, but if you miss the with the first template, do you still get to make "template flips" per the normal multi-barrage rule?

No - if you miss you place mines and the shooting attack is over.

rigeld2 wrote:
No - if you miss you place mines and the shooting attack is over.

I agree that that is probably RAI, and that's how I would play it myself.
But I don't think anything actually says this one way or the other.

rigeld2 wrote:
No - if you miss you place mines and the shooting attack is over.

I didt see where that is written in the rules; can you check?

Codex: Tyranids wrote:If, when the final position of the first blast marker in the barrage is determined, there are no models (friend or foe) under it, place D3 Spore Mine models anywhere under the blast marker so that they are in unit coherency and not within impassable terrain or 1" of an enemy model (any that cannot be placed are lost).

We're told what to do when the final position of the first marker is determined and there are no instructions for continuing to resolve the Barrage with the second marker.

However there is no instruction removing the requirement in the barrage rules to continue placing markers.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
However there is no instruction removing the requirement in the barrage rules to continue placing markers.

It's inherent in the fact that you're told what to do with #1 and not told to continue.
Once you've placed the spores, cite permission to roll scatter.

So you are claiming it interrupts and ends the process? I have permission to roll scatter, via the blast rule.s Cite denial of this - specific denial is required, of course.

RAW you are not told either way.

It is HIGHLY implied you stop, but no specifically said that you do.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
So you are claiming it interrupts and ends the process? I have permission to roll scatter, via the blast rule.s Cite denial of this - specific denial is required, of course.

It's actually not.
You see, I've cited a rule that changes the normal process. For you to continue with the normal process you need permission.
Unless you normally place spore mines when you miss with a Barrage weapon.

No, it changes that specific part of the process. It doesnt alter other aspects of the process. to alter those other parts you would need something specific telling you so.

You have not rolled scatter, despite a rule telling you to do so. Where is the specific codex rule stating you are allowed to break the BRB rule?

nosferatu1001 wrote:
No, it changes that specific part of the process. It doesnt alter other aspects of the process. to alter those other parts you would need something specific telling you so.

So obviously I count hits and roll wounds on the newly generated spores? Is that your assertion?

You have not rolled scatter, despite a rule telling you to do so. Where is the specific codex rule stating you are allowed to break the BRB rule?

After placing the mines I have no rule telling me to roll scatter.

rigeld2 wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
No, it changes that specific part of the process. It doesnt alter other aspects of the process. to alter those other parts you would need something specific telling you so.

So obviously I count hits and roll wounds on the newly generated spores? Is that your assertion?

Sigh. Youre off tonight, creating a strawman argument.

No, because you have already placed the template and found there are no models beneath it. You dont get to go back and change that.

rigeld2 wrote:

You have not rolled scatter, despite a rule telling you to do so. Where is the specific codex rule stating you are allowed to break the BRB rule?

After placing the mines I have no rule telling me to roll scatter.

Yet you have a rule telling you to roll scatter for multiple barrage, and you havent cited a rule stating you dont follow the rest of the process. You have something that provides an additional step, but that isnt the same thing.

The way I keep thinking on this:
I have a Rule that informs me, instead of going onto the next part of the Shooting sequence, that I re-roll Failed To Hit Die... does this stop me rolling To Wounds simply because that Special Rule doesn't state to continue the rest of the sequence?

I doubt it was intentional for the barrage sequence to be completed as well, but with how badly written this Codex appears to be it is just another to add to the list.
Did the writer even pen their name to it, or did they realize it was that bad and distanced themselves as far as possible?

JinxDragon wrote:
The way I keep thinking on this:
I have a Rule that informs me, instead of going onto the next part of the Shooting sequence, that I re-roll Failed To Hit Die... does this stop me rolling To Wounds simply because that Special Rule doesn't state to continue the rest of the sequence?

Not the same. This completely alters the sequence - nothing in the Barrage rules says to evaluate anything with the first template if it doesn't have any models underneath it.
Twin Linked stays in the sequence.

How to explain this...
How do we know to return to the original Sequence of the rule doesn't state to do so, which is often the case?

For me it has always been if we have something left to resolve that would of occurred outside of the altered sequence. In the case of the Twin-Linked example I tried, it was the fact we have a pile of successful To Hit Rolls that still need to be Resolved. In the Barrage case we still have multiple shots remaining unresolved without instructions granting permission for us to discard them. Without that stated permission we have a problem, as Rules are not optional and we have two complete shots waiting to resolve.

I will meet you half way:
We can leave it as 'two shots, outside of the sequence, with no instructions on how to resolve them because the required instructions are missing?'
I don't know the exact instructions after all, and if it states that the first blast marker is removed/resolved then there is no way to resolve the next two shots as they require that marker....

rigeld2 wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
No, it changes that specific part of the process. It doesnt alter other aspects of the process. to alter those other parts you would need something specific telling you so.

So obviously I count hits and roll wounds on the newly generated spores? Is that your assertion?

You have not rolled scatter, despite a rule telling you to do so. Where is the specific codex rule stating you are allowed to break the BRB rule?

After placing the mines I have no rule telling me to roll scatter.

I don't believe the RAW support you, although I do believe the intent/FAQ eventually will.

The additional markers would come down because the weapon is still a multiple barrage type, and the rules governing it haven't finished resolving since the Spore Burst does not say they have. I don't understand why you think there has to be special permission given to return to the normal sequence of play. The way it's written, the Spore Burst rules occur "in addition to" and not "instead of" the regular multiple barrage sequence.

Do the Spore Burst rules have you remove the original marker at any point?

JinxDragon wrote:
Do the Spore Burst rules have you remove the original marker at any point?

Nope.

I started this thread last week, and it has all the relevant rules copied out:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/572728.page

As much as we hate seeing entire rules typed up here, it could get DakkaDakka shut down, it does seem that the other two shots can be completely resolved without issue.

Doubt it was intended though.

Ok I'm trying to follow here but the more I read the more I get confused so let's get to basic!

It says that once the final position is known, if there is no model under the blast marker we put D3 spore mines, fine!
Is the number of biovore in the brood relevant at all? Is it D3 spore mines no mater there's 1 or 3 biovore?

And what if the first marker land on top of models? It explode as a S4-AP4 large blast?

Lord_Tyrant wrote:
Ok I'm trying to follow here but the more I read the more I get confused so let's get to basic!

It says that once the final position is known, if there is no model under the blast marker we put D3 spore mines, fine!
Is the number of biovore in the brood relevant at all? Is it D3 spore mines no mater there's 1 or 3 biovore? Correct

And what if the first marker land on top of models? It explode as a S4-AP4 large blast? Correct

So yes, you could have a unit of one biovore scatter off target and place d3 mines.

Currently yes I think you CAN resolve the additional shots to see if they scatter onto a target, but I am reluctant to think that was the intent... So I would not do that in my games. I anticipate a FAQ on it since its a new rule.

 Steel-W0LF wrote:


So yes, you could have a unit of one biovore scatter off target and place d3 mines..

Thanx for the answer

Currently yes I think you CAN resolve the additional shots to see if they scatter onto a target, but I am reluctant to think that was the intent... So I would not do that in my games. I anticipate a FAQ on it since its a new rule.

As far as I'm concerned I'll definitely resolve the remaining 2nd. and 3rd. shot on a hit (for a brood of 3 of course).
I don't see how I would willingly let go 2 large blast shot especially with a codex that is already punishing me enough for playing Tyranids.

I, uh, don't think anybody's arguing that you wouldn't resolve the second and third blasts on a hit. It's on a miss that the question comes up.

To add to the massive confusion of what happens to the other 2: Multiple Barrages states:

"Once the first marker is placed, roll a scatter dice for each other (...)shot fired by the unit. (etc)"
Codex: "If, when the final position of the first blast marker in the barrage is determined(...)"

*Once the first is placed* seems to come before *it's final position*? (sequential A -B, or B- A, or simultaneous because we're in a To Hit Phase?)

In any case, and by the following paragraph ("Note that it is perfectly fine if some markers are placed overlapping(...)"), barrage blasts (by experience too) rarely overlap each other but touch, side to side.
If your first Blast covers nothing, that chance increases even more.

You then resolve all 3 Blasts, potentially placing 9 Mines (ooh the S10 max cap comes into play) if all 3 miss. I am aware this seems to break RaW at "the first blast marker(...)are no models under it." (not "them"). I would probably allow that interpretation as correct, making a 3-biovore Miss their strongest attack, but i like spore mines... Even if i'll only ever play the side that kills Nids...

Thoughts?

 BlackTalos wrote:

You then resolve all 3 Blasts, potentially placing 9 Mines (ooh the S10 max cap comes into play) if all 3 miss. I am aware this seems to break RaW at "the first blast marker(...)are no models under it." (not "them"). I would probably allow that interpretation as correct, making a 3-biovore Miss their strongest attack, but i like spore mines... Even if i'll only ever play the side that kills Nids...

This is specifically against the rules. Only the first marker can generate spores.

I'm on board the "first one misses, put some spores out, then roll scatter on the remaining shots" side though. Nothing tells us to ignore the remaining shots. It just gives us something additional to do when the first one hits nothing.

Yeah, i did state it was probably against RaW, but would give the Maximum S10 a meaning in my life...

What if the second shot is a complete miss? (Is that why we D3, for the possible 3 shots? <-RaI)

I think the reasoning for the "no greater than strength 10" is to account for future apocalypse datasheets. I know the Eldar vibro cannons are S7 and for each successful hit after the first adds 1 to a max of 10. At most you can have 3 hits total.

 DarknessEternal wrote:

This is specifically against the rules. Only the first marker can generate spores.

I'm on board the "first one misses, put some spores out, then roll scatter on the remaining shots" side though. Nothing tells us to ignore the remaining shots. It just gives us something additional to do when the first one hits nothing.

I'm with you here. I don't see anything that suggests that the rules for multiple barrage are ignored (resolving 2nd and or 3rd shots from the unit). We simply have an additional rule that tells us to place spore mines the first time one of the barrages miss.