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 Melissia wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Yeah, I play BA. I'm a real fan boy. What exactly are the marine advantages again? Because when I play BA against C:SM

So marines vs marines, you're surprised that they're samey or something?

No. What I'm saying is that I have the WORST army in the game and C:SM does not intimidate me in the least. That's how ineffectual the changes to C:SM have been to me. Tau/Eldar/Daemons are not even a game for me. I'm never even in it. It's me scooping red marines up. Not so with C:SM; they have to work hard to beat me, because their weapons and schemes are just lackluster. They just can't do the damage or take the damage like the good lists.

 Melissia wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Meganobz aren't "infantry".

They're a kind of infantry.

Martel732 wrote:
It's not how you use the "infantry" it's which "infantry" you use.

Only if you xhoose to use all infantry in the exact same way.

Martel732 wrote:
And battlewagons have always been a dubiously cheap source of AV 14

Amusingly, I've heard plenty of complaints of them being overpriced for what you get.

Martel732 wrote:
If marines could get a battlewagon, that would be a step in the dumb direction.

FTFY

Freaking marine fanboys wanting to rip off and steal the advantages every other faction has until there's no reason to use anything other than space borings.

Seriously space borings hahahahahhhahaha the imperium has THE most in depth fluff going and what's easily the best book series in the black library oh yes the Horus heresy which is marines killing marines pretty much all the way through

And eldar fluff is boring

Negron fluff got reversed

Nids are a straight rip off from aliens

Orks are copy and paste from fantasy just with guns

Demons- eldars fault

And tau have you actually read their fluff I mean seriously it sucks and I play them

Atsknf is the Xenos butthurt card? Funny looks like this whole thread is the space marine butthurt card..... Enjoy for the next edition marine players .... Us xeno players will just keep to Bizz as usual , know that gw has will never fundamentally change your poster boy selves besides make you a 1 Pts cheaper every year till you get guard prices marines

Though I'm sure us aliens with get our comeuppance next ed where they beat Xenos specific things into the ground with skimmer nerfs, and anything with a 4+ Save will probably just die after it loses a third of it's models

 Arthas367 wrote:
Atsknf is the Xenos butthurt card? Funny looks like this whole thread is the space marine butthurt card..... Enjoy for the next edition marine players .... Us xeno players will just keep to Bizz as usual , know that gw has will never fundamentally change your poster boy selves besides make you a 1 Pts cheaper every year till you get guard prices marines

Though I'm sure us aliens with get our comeuppance next ed where they beat Xenos specific things into the ground with skimmer nerfs, and anything with a 4+ Save will probably just die after it loses a third of it's models

You never did address how ATSKNF isn't even that good anymore. I have army swapped several times and never missed it. The game is too lethal for it to be a valuable ability.

 Arthas367 wrote:
make you a 1 Pts cheaper every year till you get guard prices marines

Don't tempt them.

brother marcus wrote:
Seriously space borings hahahahahhhahaha the imperium

Space Marines aren't "The Imperium".

They are merely a tiny, barely significant part of it.

For someone complaining about the lore, you haven't read much of it.

 Arthas367 wrote:
Atsknf is the Xenos butthurt card? Funny looks like this whole thread is the space marine butthurt card..... Enjoy for the next edition marine players .... Us xeno players will just keep to Bizz as usual , know that gw has will never fundamentally change your poster boy selves besides make you a 1 Pts cheaper every year till you get guard prices marines

Though I'm sure us aliens with get our comeuppance next ed where they beat Xenos specific things into the ground with skimmer nerfs, and anything with a 4+ Save will probably just die after it loses a third of it's models

Urm how many times have has ATSKNF helped me how about never !! They either stand and fight due to their high moral marines either stay and fight or get wiped out its that simple

And hell when I use my tau or guard I love to play marines it's a pretty much guaranteed victory these days and I never have a problem with models running away


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Melissia wrote:

 Arthas367 wrote:
make you a 1 Pts cheaper every year till you get guard prices marines

Don't tempt them.

brother marcus wrote:
Seriously space borings hahahahahhhahaha the imperium

Space Marines aren't "The Imperium".

They are merely a tiny, barely significant part of it.

For someone complaining about the lore, you haven't read much of it.

Okay then my book case says differently

The only reason that rule isn't your godsend anymore is because combat isn't as dominating as it was... When it returns and it will return you marine players will find something else to complain about while the rest of us experience getting cut down again like it should be, the rule isn't broke currently because the edition is about shooting you dead now, but that rule still makes your troops the most reliable outside of fearless

Firstly, rather than buffing the bolter's statline, id like to see it have an "ability" like Bladestorm or Gauss. There's already a stat increased rifle in the game, and the tau have it, and making boltguns similar plasma rifles (or just increasing their stats in general) would be boring, overpowered, And/Or counter-productive. Bolters are supposed to be brutal weapons, even in the universe of 40K, so make an effect that demonstrates the horrific wounds these weapons would cause. Some sort of morale effect probably, like if the squad has been reduced to 25% of their original model count by bolt weaponry, the units gains a permanent -1 modifier to their leadership. Failing that, unit interactions like DA banners that change the profile of the bolter would be a solid direction, just don't make it a straight port from the DA, they've suffered enough.

However, the problem is not so much the bolter as it is 40K as a whole. I see three things that need to be changed to fix this problem, the AP system, the Cover System. and Allies. Let's be honest, the current AP and cover rules are a complete flop. The AP system overvalues AP 2 and 3, undervalue anything with a 5+ or worse, while Cover should be a modifier for "to hit", not some independent save, since this means that units that don't pay for good armor saves can get them for free, with ignores cover weapons being far less prolific than AP 2 and 3 weapons. It also makes cover far less useful for anything with a decent armor save, except against the aforementioned low AP weapons. If AP doesn't "ignore" armor, but rather decreases it gradually as AP increases, then players wont feel the need to take AP 2-3 equivalent weapons, since they're not the only effective weapons against marines and therefore just as good against everything else. Weaker AP weapons will be more versatile, while still impacting marine armor to a not insignificant degree.

Finally, the Allies system is a mess. I would have less of a problem with the current game balance of super strong Xenos (they should be strong, otherwise the Imperium would have just wiped them out by now) if they weren't allowed to ally similarly to the new (and pathetic) Tyranids codex, forcing them to handle their own weaknesses and downsides without aid. Split the game into 4 factions (Chaos, Imperial, Xenos, and Neutral) and only allow allying within your own faction, with the exception of Xenos who could not ally without that aid of a "neutral" inquisition ally, or with a neutral army (imperial guard (they can be corrupted, mercenaries, brainwashed etc etc), Harlequins, Inquisition, etc). This way the Xenos are really powerful, but Chaos and Imperials can shore up their weaknesses with allies. Also helps avoid some of the ridiculously strange/dumb ally configurations in play currently.

All of this is a lot of work, coupled with big changes to the system, but these problematic situtions are going to keep popping up until the system itself gets fixed. Additional fixes like general balance work (both internal and external) and streamlining the game are both needed as well. The fact that the rules are in the hands of people who have an incentive to keep them imbalanced does not bode well.

Didnt read any of the replies. I think bolters should be salvo 1/2 at 24" range

brother marcus wrote:
Okay then my book case says differently

No it doesn't.

Most battles that the Imperium participates in are won or lost without so much as sniffing a Space Marine's flatulence as they pass by. Most humans live their entire lives without ever seeing a Space Marine. Including most guardsmen. Hive worlds produce so much military manpower and equipment every year that just a single year's output could crush an entire chapter of Space Marines. Uncounted trillions of guardsmen die every year in order to keep the Imperium alive, and without their sacrifice, the Space Marines would never have a chance to shine in the relatively few, vital battles that they DO participate in, where they DO manage to turn the tide with their skill, equipment, and heroism.

The Space Marine codex doesn't really disagree with any of these statements, nor does the BRB. The Imperium is unfathomably huge, amongst which Space Marines are such a tiny number. Even if Space Marines are each equal to a thousand guardsmen-- an assertion which even their own primarchs disagreed with-- the Imperial Guard's military power exceeds that of the Space Marines exponentially. And it has to, because the Imperial Guard and the PDFs are what holds the line, not the Space Marines.


Back on topic, however: Again, boltguns really don't need changes. What needs changes are the individual units. To give a blanket change to all bolt weapons would upset the balance, not create balance.

 Peregrine wrote:

I have no idea, because there isn't really a competitive environment that has sufficient LOS blocking terrain. Tournaments usually have lots of big open fields where gunlines can dominate because the TOs don't have access to enough terrain to make proper tables for everyone.

Fair enough.

It might be rising, but it's still limited to heavy/special weapons. A MEQ army is still going to take a lot of hits that it gets its T4 and armor save against, and that makes a big difference in durability compared to T3/4+ fire warriors or T3/no-save GEQs. Plus, the amount of melee AP 3 hasn't changed all that much and charges with anything short of a death star involve lots of STR 3/4 AP- attacks.

It's limited to heavy/special weapons, which are readily available to shooter armies like Tau and Eldar in huge amounts, *as well as* high-ROF weapons which also nullify +3Sv. And the latter is even MORE readily available. And again, you're not addressing the fact that the difference between 4+ armies and 3+ armies is that 3+ armies have much smaller model counts, so you don't NEED to have AP3 or better or high RoF weaponry on *every* model.

At short range, with squishy infantry units. Even against Eldar you're still going to face large amounts of AP 4+ weapons, and even against rending weapons a 3+ save is still useful against the 2/3 of the wounds that aren't AP 2.

Short range? Eldar out-DPS marines at longer ranges bro, because battle focus. Take a look at Dire Avengers. 18'' range, and their weapons are assault 2 rather than rapid-fire. So they can easily fire their full 2-shots and then dance away out of rapid-fire range. Even rolling 1's for your run every turn, it's literally impossible for a marine squad to get into rapid-fire for their double-tap, ensuring DA's will consistently fire off twice as many shots per turn,all of which are rending. That's just the type of shenanigans you face as a marine player.

Your appreciation of the 3+ save isn't realistic, and isn't really paying attention to the meta. There is far, far too much volume of fire and AP3 or better to make that save worth what you pay for it.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Which... ties in to what everyone's saying.

The problem with Marines isn't bolters, or really even marines. It's other factions and their power-creep. Too much access to low AP weapons, too much access to high rates of fire. Too much ignores cover, too much increased range (imo, no army should be able to shoot into the enemies' deployment zone turn one unless they're artillery), and yes, not enough cover and LoS blockers.

Fixing the rest of meta is the only way to really fix MEQ without buffing them into incredulous. Unfortunately, that's a lot of work, and it's not going to happen. Oh well.

 Melissia wrote:

brother marcus wrote:
Okay then my book case says differently

No it doesn't.

Most battles that the Imperium participates in are won or lost without so much as sniffing a Space Marine's flatulence as they pass by. Most humans live their entire lives without ever seeing a Space Marine. Including most guardsmen. Hive worlds produce so much military manpower and equipment every year that just a single year's output could crush an entire chapter of Space Marines. Uncounted trillions of guardsmen die every year in order to keep the Imperium alive, and without their sacrifice, the Space Marines would never have a chance to shine in the relatively few, vital battles that they DO participate in, where they DO manage to turn the tide with their skill, equipment, and heroism.

The Space Marine codex doesn't really disagree with any of these statements, nor does the BRB. The Imperium is unfathomably huge, amongst which Space Marines are such a tiny number. Even if Space Marines are each equal to a thousand guardsmen-- an assertion which even their own primarchs disagreed with-- the Imperial Guard's military power exceeds that of the Space Marines exponentially. And it has to, because the Imperial Guard and the PDFs are what holds the line, not the Space Marines.


Back on topic, however: Again, boltguns really don't need changes. What needs changes are the individual units. To give a blanket change to all bolt weapons would upset the balance, not create balance.

For all the wrangling, I agree with you. But marines are more miserable than you are making them out to be.

They're still in better shape then the army I use, so I don't have many [expletive deleted]s to give.

Then why are you in this thread, complaining about everyone else's posts?

 Melissia wrote:

brother marcus wrote:
Okay then my book case says differently

No it doesn't.

Most battles that the Imperium participates in are won or lost without so much as sniffing a Space Marine's flatulence as they pass by. Most humans live their entire lives without ever seeing a Space Marine. Including most guardsmen. Hive worlds produce so much military manpower and equipment every year that just a single year's output could crush an entire chapter of Space Marines. Uncounted trillions of guardsmen die every year in order to keep the Imperium alive, and without their sacrifice, the Space Marines would never have a chance to shine in the relatively few, vital battles that they DO participate in, where they DO manage to turn the tide with their skill, equipment, and heroism.

The Space Marine codex doesn't really disagree with any of these statements, nor does the BRB. The Imperium is unfathomably huge, amongst which Space Marines are such a tiny number. Even if Space Marines are each equal to a thousand guardsmen-- an assertion which even their own primarchs disagreed with-- the Imperial Guard's military power exceeds that of the Space Marines exponentially. And it has to, because the Imperial Guard and the PDFs are what holds the line, not the Space Marines.

I already know this and I don't know how it's relavent either. I have also said I have a guard army at 2500 Pts

I don't think you see how rubbish they actually are these days


Back on topic, however: Again, boltguns really don't need changes. What needs changes are the individual units. To give a blanket change to all bolt weapons would upset the balance, not create balance.

brother marcus wrote:

 Melissia wrote:

brother marcus wrote:
Seriously space borings hahahahahhhahaha the imperium

Space Marines aren't "The Imperium".

They are merely a tiny, barely significant part of it.

For someone complaining about the lore, you haven't read much of it.

Okay then my book case says differently

There are 1,000 chapters IIRC. Each chapter has a maximum of 1000 marines. That means that at any one time there can be only a maximum of 1,000,000 marines. The average hive city (not world) can have a population in the hundreds of millions. There are thousands, if not millions of hive worlds. That's only the hive worlds. Yeah space marines are a tiny potion of the imperium. I don't even knnow if they are reprsented with the high lords of Terra (could be though, no idea).

They are not.

 BlaxicanX wrote:
Then why are you in this thread, complaining about everyone else's posts?

And I think it's just what he/she does in pretty much every thread Ive seen


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 BlaxicanX wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:

I have no idea, because there isn't really a competitive environment that has sufficient LOS blocking terrain. Tournaments usually have lots of big open fields where gunlines can dominate because the TOs don't have access to enough terrain to make proper tables for everyone.

Fair enough.

It might be rising, but it's still limited to heavy/special weapons. A MEQ army is still going to take a lot of hits that it gets its T4 and armor save against, and that makes a big difference in durability compared to T3/4+ fire warriors or T3/no-save GEQs. Plus, the amount of melee AP 3 hasn't changed all that much and charges with anything short of a death star involve lots of STR 3/4 AP- attacks.

It's limited to heavy/special weapons, which are readily available to shooter armies like Tau and Eldar in huge amounts, *as well as* high-ROF weapons which also nullify +3Sv. And the latter is even MORE readily available. And again, you're not addressing the fact that the difference between 4+ armies and 3+ armies is that 3+ armies have much smaller model counts, so you don't NEED to have AP3 or better or high RoF weaponry on *every* model.

[quote[At short range, with squishy infantry units. Even against Eldar you're still going to face large amounts of AP 4+ weapons, and even against rending weapons a 3+ save is still useful against the 2/3 of the wounds that aren't AP 2.

Short range? Eldar out-DPS marines at longer ranges bro, because battle focus. Take a look at Dire Avengers. 18'' range, and their weapons are assault 2 rather than rapid-fire. So they can easily fire their full 2-shots and then dance away out of rapid-fire range. Even rolling 1's for your run every turn, it's literally impossible for a marine squad to get into rapid-fire for their double-tap, ensuring DA's will consistently fire off twice as many shots per turn,all of which are rending. That's just the type of shenanigans you face as a marine player.

Your appreciation of the 3+ save isn't realistic, and isn't really paying attention to the meta. There is far, far too much volume of fire and AP3 or better to make that save worth what you pay for it.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Which... ties in to what everyone's saying.

The problem with Marines isn't bolters, or really even marines. It's other factions and their power-creep. Too much access to low AP weapons, too much access to high rates of fire. Too much ignores cover, too much increased range (imo, no army should be able to shoot into the enemies' deployment zone turn one unless they're artillery), and yes, not enough cover and LoS blockers.

Fixing the rest of meta is the only way to really fix MEQ without buffing them into incredulous. Unfortunately, that's a lot of work, and it's not going to happen. Oh well.

Alright, keep it about the topic and not personal please.

 Melissia wrote:

brother marcus wrote:

Most battles that the Imperium participates in are won or lost without so much as sniffing a Space Marine's flatulence as they pass by. Most humans live their entire lives without ever seeing a Space Marine. Including most guardsmen. Hive worlds produce so much military manpower and equipment every year that just a single year's output could crush an entire chapter of Space Marines. Uncounted trillions of guardsmen die every year in order to keep the Imperium alive, and without their sacrifice, the Space Marines would never have a chance to shine in the relatively few, vital battles that they DO participate in, where they DO manage to turn the tide with their skill, equipment, and heroism.

The Space Marine codex doesn't really disagree with any of these statements, nor does the BRB. The Imperium is unfathomably huge, amongst which Space Marines are such a tiny number. Even if Space Marines are each equal to a thousand guardsmen-- an assertion which even their own primarchs disagreed with-- the Imperial Guard's military power exceeds that of the Space Marines exponentially. And it has to, because the Imperial Guard and the PDFs are what holds the line, not the Space Marines.

Just sayin', replace "Space Marines" with "Sisters of Battle" and it's the same story. Live and let live I say. There's not anyone in here raging about how dumb a concept Sisters of Battle are (note: this is not my opinion, if not for the dumb Allies Matrix I'd probably play some Sisters myself), so why do you feel the need to belittle people who like Space Marines at every opportunity?

 Melissia wrote:
Because you aren't paying attention to the fact that the balance for Blue Marines, Red Marines, Grey Marines, Silver Marines, Spiky Marines, Green Marines, Black Marines, Sisters, and Imperial Guard are very different. Especially the last two.

No such Codex anymore.


Back on topic: Dark Angels can turn their bolters into Salvo 2/4. That hasn't made them OP whatsoever. Sure, it's a banner with limited range and all that, but even army-wide I don't think it'd be too much. To avoid Henchmen getting out of hand, there could be some sort of rule only letting models in Power Armour (so all Loyalists, Sisters, Chaos Marines, and any Henchmen rich enough to pay for Power Armour) use them as such, justifying it with the built in servos, gizmos and doo-dads that Power Armour comes with.

Regarding Sisters: I haven't argued to the contrary yet have I? I'm perfectly okay with Sisters being elite specialists who are quite rare. I do believe them to be more common than others do (such as Lynata), mind you, but still not really much more common than Marines.


More on topic: I think that ability should stay unique to the DA.

lol Marines without ATSKNF are beyond trash. Small units with gak weapons and saves that don't matter. Hello why do you think C:SM suck so hard.