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I've been running a few variations on the relatively predictable CSM lists for a while now, and I'm looking to try something a bit different. Generally speaking, I wind up either throwing Slaanesh on everything for Noise Marines and Icons/Marks or I wind up dropping lots of plague marines to annoy my opponents. I know what the standard response to this thread will be (3-4 helldrakes, season to taste) but I'm curious what else people have gotten out of the CSM codex.

Assume Helldrakes aren't an option - what interesting / clever / novel lists have you seen or run?

Spawns are great. Espetially accompanied by biker lord/sorc. Not too expensive, fast, rather durable and not bad in mellee by themselves and when they got lord or sorc - they're fearful.
Cheap ml3 sorcs with some telepathy goodness.
Nurgle Obliterators - better than ever.
Plague marines - expensive but usually worth taking like 6-7 of them with 2 plazmas/meltas in a rhino or as a retinue to your indep in a landraider.
Even regular marines in a landraider can be threatening in mellee. I've run 8 with ccw, mark of slaanesh, icon of excess and melta + serg with combi-melta and lightning claw sitting in a landraider with a dirge caster and dozer blade accompanied by a cheap ml3 sorc with spell familliar. And they did great against tau. The enemy just couldn't down that landraider for too long and than puppet-mastered hammerhead with submunition shot in the midst of firewarriors and killed 10.
Zombies! Best point-holders.
Lazpreds, ac havocs, maulerfiends all not bad and playable.
Actually, marines in a rhino are somewhat playable if you can hide them behind a landraider and/or terrain long enough. They got 2 special weapons of choice unlike loyalists that have to take 1 assault 1 heavy. But usually csm are mediocre.

C: CSM is probably not the top dex atm but they're still viable and have many options - not just drake spam. Also with new nid's mass mc/fmc spam drakes will be vulnerable to hive crones everyone's gona run en masse.

Add some renagades allies for some flavour

Yeah, the most interesting things I have seen / been playing recently are as follows:

1) Typhus and Zombies - take a lot of them, like 100. They are cheap and hard to kill.

2) Biker Squads - large biker squads (up to 10) are hard to kill.

3) Black Legion Chaos Lords - load them up with multiple artefacts to get 3+ invulnerable rerolling 1s. Take the spineshiver blade to hit first in combat.

I have become convinced recently that CSMs really benefit from the use and abuse of cover. On the one hand, any time you can grab cover with part of your unit, do that. Have units behind units at all times. Further, keep units together so they can close off your firing lanes towards opponents. Laspreds are better at taking out markerlights, for instance, when they can only see the models doing the markerlights and focusfire on them.

So I guess positioning in the key here.

As said above but spawns are generally >> than bikers.

3 squads of havocs with 4 ac each is a decent anti-air option. Combine with adl and quad gun you got a mini gunline. Any lord with bs5 lets you hit on 2+ and the quadgun is already twin linked. Otherwise you can just use the havoc champ.

Well, I'm currently experimenting with Shooty MoK CSM units as troops, how is that for different? As MoK grants counter-attack (as well as Rage), you can advance and unload on your opponent, and then let him charge you if he wants. It's kind of the Space Wolf Grey Hunter unit of the Chaos codex.

10+ CSM, MoK, 2 plasma + combi plasma or 2 melta + combi-melta. Rhino or not is up to you, as is extra ccw or not. Boltguns are probably essential to keep this working.

Havocs and Preds are probably my favourite HS choice, I havent used oblits but im sure i will include some eventually. But My havocs have been doing me well in most games. I was running typhus and zombies and my friends couldn't beat me so i stopped and just been switching it up running different things. Nurgle bikers is probably my signature unit i run, all my friends run snipers just to take them out. I tried running a fun Slaneesh list with 3 sqauds of noise marines left as elite choice (I know im stupid but there was a reason.) and ran 2 Sorcs trying to get sypmthony of pain so you can get str 6 shots from your blasters, which would be mighty deadly.

 koooaei wrote:
As said above but spawns are generally >> than bikers.

Ditto. Spawn will always outperform bikes.

If there's one thing that is constant in a CSM armylist it is to always take spawn.
I'm also convinced that you should always give Mark of Nurgle to your spawn whenever you can. It makes them literally twice as durable against bolter and S7 fire.

 Guitarquero wrote:
I tried running a fun Slaneesh list with 3 sqauds of noise marines left as elite choice (I know im stupid but there was a reason.) and ran 2 Sorcs trying to get sypmthony of pain so you can get str 6 shots from your blasters, which would be mighty deadly.

Pretty cool idea, although I guess too random as it depends on getting the correct spells, and getting both off at the same unit at the same time. I would say a far more mainstream approach would be two-three Noise marine units (as Troops as you choose a Lord as Warlord) and one Sorcerer casting Symphony of Pain. S5 Sonic Blasters with 3 shots each would still be very lethal.

I like infiltrating Obliterators. Huron can make sure they infiltrate. It'd great when you go first (most players want to go second) because you can deploy 2 units of obliterators in optimal position for an alpha strike after your opponent has deployed and go first to shoot him.

There is nothing like hell on earth as an invisible Maulerfiend. An invisible Maulerfiend will take down the Swarmlord. Give it tendrils to reduce the attacks by 2 and send it in. Swarmlord will need to smash to damage it and with the tendrils he's only got one attack hat hits on a 5.

I'd run some allies. I like using a Herald of Tzeentch and giving prescience to forgefiends and the like. Soulgrinders also work well, and flamers are amusing depending on what your opponent plays. Lots of flamer hits to toss about.

I like to play a hammer and anvil Army, Flying Daemon Prince, allied Lord of Change, Bikes, Heldrake are the hammer. 2-3 squads of PM, cultist blob are the anvil.


With 3 fliers, it really can be a pain to catch and I'm nearly always in combat by turn 2 (turn one if my opponent puts his men too far forward). Who says assault armies are dead?

My usual list is ;

Kharn +7 Chosen with dual LC champ, IoW, MoK, 2 powerweapons and 2 meltas in a LR with Dirgecaster.

Recently i added Cypher to this unit, to add Hit&Run and Shrouded, plus 2 additional Plasma shots and I8 S7 Ap 2 Attacks.

I also did add in my last game a "Chaos-chimist" a LV2 Sorceror, no marks, full Biomancy and spell familiar.

this way i can give Endurance to the Squad.

i ALWAYS take a JuggerAxeLord, with Gift of Mutation, its always fun when i fget a multiple boon with EW and Fleshbane or +1 save or +1T.
there is nothing more impressive then an HQ char that can dish out 13 S7 AP2 Attacks.

Each time when i'm finished with the Lord attacks and proceed to make the bikers attacks, my opponent is like "...wait..., was that all from this ONE dude?..." "yup"

The Axelord is usually in a 5man Bike squadron, Champ dual LC, IoW, MoK, 2 meltas.

Then 2 squads of 8 Zerkers in Rhinos with Dirgecasters.
i love Dirgecasters, i can't imagine taking tanks without this, specially Vs Taus, the look on my Tau opponent face when i said to him that he couldn't Overwatch with the units in a 6"...priceless!

A Heldrake, nearly always do the work you expect from him, sometimes he shows up late to the party though.

A Maulerfiend who provides support/cover for the Bikes and Juggerlord.
the Mauler is really an helpfull engine of Wrekin doom if played right, usually people doesn't take the Mauler too seriously, and then they are astonished when this things cross the table in a 24" speed and engage the LR and pulverize it.

Last 4 games He always managed to destroy one to two LR per game, now my usual adversaries hates him from there guts and concentrate a large portion of their fire power on him, wich gives a breather to the rest of my units.

and a Defiler.

I can say that i have a 60 to 70% succes rate with this list, depending on the opponent army, Vs SM i'm pretty succesfull, DE, Eldars and Tau it depends on a number of factors but my succes rate goes down to 50%, IG, Orks and Nids, its just luck, if the dice rolls are on my side and if my opponent makes mistakes, typically there is too much targets for my poor fusillade skills, but if i can hit hard the key elements, then the rest crumbles apart, even though my succes rate is closer to 35-40%.

Occasionnaly i change my list to include a Stormeagle in the place of the LR, or a Dreadclaw in place of a Rhino and a Contemptor dread in place of the Defiler to have some variations.

I posted a lot of my thoughts here; http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/568384.page#6352225

Cliff Notes Version; CSM thrive on synergy, not spamming units. I prefer a mix of; long range anti armor (Havocs/Oblit/Preds), mid range scoring anti-infantry (Noise/Plague/Marked Marines), fast and effective tie-up units (Bikers/Talons/Spawn) mixed with whatever you damn well please.

If you ever feel your inspiration slipping, remember, not only do you have the coolest friggin' models in the game, you are the hardest mofo this side of Ghazzy Thraka. CSM are not for scrubs or beards, you win by outsmarting, out stabbing and out playing your opponent. Let the noobs have their Tau; we play hardcore!

I don't understand why everyone says 4 Heldrakes is the way to go, 4 is overkill 3 is the most you should ever bring and even then it's questionable. But they are the only thing keeping the book even half-way competative so I can see people making that assumption.

Heldrakes are far from the only thing keeping the book competitive. They are powerful units, but they won't win you the game on their own unless your opponent is an idiot.

 Veteran of The Long War wrote:
I don't understand why everyone says 4 Heldrakes is the way to go, 4 is overkill 3 is the most you should ever bring and even then it's questionable.

Because they are dumb and lazy.
"Hldrakes are the only viable units in the book!1!"
...followed immediately by...
"I spammed drakes and lost to a Tau line THIS CODX IS TERRBBILE!!!!"

I actually love Slaaneshi bikers, they are far, far more effective than I've seen them described on this site.

my list

belakor
lord on bike

plagues n rhino
plagues rhino

spawn nurgle

oblits nurgle
heldrake

ally daemn

GUO
plaguebear
plaguebear

I am in the process pf converting a Nurgle DP to run along side my Khorne DP. Both would have Wings and Power Armour, BM for Nurgle and AoBF for Khorne. I'm trying to decided what to use with these two monsters though, almost certainly 2 Heldrakes will be flying around with them and probably a unit of Nurgle Spawn on the ground. I usually run PM, but since I don't want to dump anymore points in to a 2nd attachment and 3rd HQ, I'm going to stick with vanilla CSM or Cultist, but not sure which or how to arm them.

If you're not taking heldrakes, you still want to max out your FA slots, as it's one of the two good slots in CSM (the other being HS, with HQ in debatable running). Spawn or Bikes are the big thing here, and Spawn are generally going to be more durable, as I know there's a tournament CSM list that places very well that's a spawn-tide. Ideally you want Nurgle Spawn, as T6 means that even the S7 shots that are everywhere these days need 3+ to wound, and they don't get dinged by Tank Hunter or Monster Hunter from the Buff Commander. It's not as tough as Seer Council, but that's probably the toughest unit in the game to kill right now, so just having 45 T6 wounds will get you somewhere.

A list I've thought up (which likely is just a copy of the tournament spawn-tide list) is this:

2 x Nurgle Biker Lord (PF/LC, Sigil)
3 x 5 Plague Marines w/ 2 Plasmaguns
3 x 5 Nurgle Spawn
2 x Maulerfiends
1 x 3 Nurgle Obliterators

This list gets in the enemy's face very quickly, with everything but the 15 plague marines and the 3 obliterators moving 12" or more every turn. I don't play CSM anymore, but if I did, I'd probably bring something like this list.

It's lacking in troops, but troops are the weak point of CSM in my opinion, especially in this meta. Potential changes would be making room for Be'la'kor or a Black Legion DP, or Chaos Daemons stuff with either a backfield GUO or a LoC for Prescience, and maybe a DP too.

So yeah, my suggestions for good CSM lists are to max out your HQ, FA, and HS with the best options available, and figure out a troop that you're okay with playing with.

I am a rather vocal lover of Raptor deathstars; a maxed out squad of 15 with either MoS and Icon of Excess or MoK and Icon of Wrath is... well it's nice, let's say that. 2 melta-guns are compulsory, and the champ always takes a pair of lightning claws to grate some cheese. Add a MoS sorcerer to the slaaneshi raptors and roll Hysterical Frenzy, and you're set. Alternatively, an unmarked sorc putting everything into Biomancy is good all round.

I also run the Raptors pretty frequently, 15 with MoK, double Meltas, and a pair of Claws just like you said. I use a Khorne Lord with a Jump Pack and AoBF, adds a bunch of AP2 attacks to the squads already huge number of attacks, plus it he makes my Berzerkers troops.

I ran a deepstriking suicide list recently that did surprisingly well. 3 each of min squads of terminators, raptors, and obliterators with a couple cultist squads huddled behind an aegis with comm relay. You get a relatively small deepstriking footprint with those and all of it can pop out high damage for low cost. All of it marked nurgle, so its not that easy to wipe out squads. Took a jump pack lord with the burning brand and allied in some pink horrors to drop on objectives.

Gave mostly combi-plasma to the terms and meltas for the raptors with some combi-flamers here and there. With the comm relay most of it should come in turn 2, blow up all the enemy armor, and then weather a turn of shooting before charging. Nurgle raptors with defensive grenades are surprisingly tough, especially with 8 other targets also in charge range. There's definitely huge losses on both sides, just have to hit harder before they can hit back.

Yep, melta drop is good in many situations. But it falls apart the moment you meet a serpent in 2+ cover in the open that ignores a damage result. Or a fmc spam. So you should rely on something else. Preferably mellee oriented cause you don't have that many ignore-cover cept for a drake.

The trouble with of+PC Mon bike lords is that they get smooshed by daemon princes, greater daemons and any meld orientated MC. Now that's not a reason not to take them because they are plenty beast enough to take on gunlines,riptides etc. But I wouldn't take 2 (especially if taking maulerfiends too who instant loose to flighty MC)

I would go with 1 and maybe bel'kor (make the spawn invisible!) Or another more capable melee hero.

Biker lords are awesome but depending on your Meta, spamming them might be a bad idea.

Something cool ive seen is a biker lord of nurgle and 10 nurgle bikers all shrouded by Be'Lakor's invisibility for a 2+ cover save.

Vindicators can really, really shine. Against TeQ Dark Angles or Grey Knight lists taking 3 of them can really ruin your opponents day.

You can take the screamer star as your ally! Take a herald of tzeentch with a disk, grimoire, ML3, and a reward or two, 10 pink horrors, and 9 screamers for under 500 points as allies. This is a mini-screamer-star because you only have one herald instead of 4 and you dont have fateweaver to reroll the grimoire, but its still a very effective unit.

If you're having trouble with horde lists, infiltrating 3 helbrutes with 2 heavy flamers each up with huron or ahriman can really wreck face, as they have a chance when wounded to fire their weapons twice, giving the potential for 12 heavy flamer templates in a turn!

 changerofways wrote:
Something cool ive seen is a biker lord of nurgle and 10 nurgle bikers all shrouded by Be'Lakor's invisibility for a 2+ cover save.

Vindicators can really, really shine. Against TeQ Dark Angles or Grey Knight lists taking 3 of them can really ruin your opponents day.

You can take the screamer star as your ally! Take a herald of tzeentch with a disk, grimoire, ML3, and a reward or two, 10 pink horrors, and 9 screamers for under 500 points as allies. This is a mini-screamer-star because you only have one herald instead of 4 and you dont have fateweaver to reroll the grimoire, but its still a very effective unit.

If you're having trouble with horde lists, infiltrating 3 helbrutes with 2 heavy flamers each up with huron or ahriman can really wreck face, as they have a chance when wounded to fire their weapons twice, giving the potential for 12 heavy flamer templates in a turn!

Huron can only infiltrate infrantry (I believe) , he's no creed.
Make sure to get demonic possession for your vindicators so you can ignore crew stuned/shaken
I'd probably go for 20 flesh hounds instead of the Screamers (target saturation and all that). The book is pretty unreliable without fateweaver so would probably give it a miss (especially since your opponent CA. Focus on the spawn /bikes if it works and the dogs if it doesn't)