Nigeria begins arrests after anti-gay law passed

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**easysauce**

hotsauceman1 wrote:
easysauce wrote:

but really, there are REASONS why so much of the world is in poor shape, at some point, we have to blame africans for why africa is in such a state, ME'terns for why the ME is in such a state and so on... stop all foregin aid, stop all interventions, just completly leave it alone.

Sometimes I have to wonder if that is what we need to do. as my Sociology teacher said "Sometimes societies need to collapse to a better one can rise later, some places are beyond repair"

yup, we find that in history, even the rise of the west was after its great fall into the dark ages.

things like sparta/greece rising to power after they kept getting there butts handed to them by the north african civilizations.

phoenix rising from the ashes and all that, or to quote an awesome movie "revolver" (watch it if you havnt!)

"you only get better by playing a better opponent"

**hotsauceman1**

Isnt that more like any game? IF all you do is crush newbies you do not change.

**AlmightyWalrus**

easysauce wrote:
Frazzled wrote:

gotta own up to the fact that every single civilization has done bad stuff in the past, and had roles been reversed, the same things would have been done.

Except for Switzerland of course. Any country that invents yodelling is a country thats Buddha would accuse of being too mellow....

hey hey... yodelling is awesome to rock out too... I DARE you to head bang to yodelling and not have fun

Seems like we cant acknowledge that western nations actually contributed to the developement of countries technology, and furthered human rights across the globe...

because africa was utopia before colonialism apparently, and nothing the west did helped anyone in any way... they dont need roads, technology, hospitals, democracy, human rights ect...

we must all feel the appropriate level of 1st world guilt for things we didnt do, dont support, while at the same time ignoring all the good stuff that also done at the same time...

Automatically Appended Next Post:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:
It's "not PC" because it's bonkers. The entire world system of trade, and thus the traditional road to improvement of living standards and all the things that brings with it, is rigged in favour of us (developed countries). How do you suppose you'll get any civil rights improvements when we're still using African countries to our own benefit?

so on the one hand, they have nothing we want, so we dont help them,

yet we are using them for things we want?

on the one hand, western influence is bad, on the other hand, western values are not the homophobic, mysogenitic, ect values that are indemic to muslim africa...

mmmhmmmm

and how did the "developed" countries get developed in the first place? can we somehow blame them for not waiting until the stone age civilizations of the world caught up to the steel age before they started exploring the world?

please, tell me more about how all the problems of the world were caused by western civlizations sucess, and how none of the good stuff that came about because of western civ's developement (IE modern medicine, science, technology, roads, human rights, democracy) matter...

I'm... not even sure were to start. You're ranting. I've said absolutely nothing about Western influence being bad by definition, that has to be the biggest Strawman I've ever seen. What I'm saying is that claiming that it's all Africa's own fault (culpabit victima!) is bonkers.

**Medium of Death**

We all know it's the fault of people that are born there that their country sucks.

I'm sorry dying African child, your corrupt leaders that you can't do anything about and didn't have a say in retaining aren't a concern for the West. Deal with it yourself... if you grow up.

It's hard for people in a position with nothing to stand up for themselves, and the West ends up picking up the pieces anyway. It kind of hard to ignore the innocent parties that get caught up in all the clusterfeths that go on in that region.

**easysauce**

Medium of Death wrote:
We all know it's the fault of people that are born there that their country sucks.

I'm sorry dying African child, your corrupt leaders that you can't do anything about and didn't have a say in retaining aren't a concern for the West. Deal with it yourself... if you grow up.

It's hard for people in a position with nothing to stand up for themselves, and the West ends up picking up the pieces anyway. It kind of hard to ignore the innocent parties that get caught up in all the clusterfeths that go on in that region.

so africans making african laws is the west's fault... and all of africa is "helpless starving children with nothing"... very stereotypical view you have there.

sounds like the only thing you know about africa is what you hear on tv "sponser a child" commercials...

just FYI, there are plenty of adults over there, who DO excercise their power to change... why do you think so many african cultures are commiting genocide/ethnic cleansing on themselves?

ok there!

so its bad to blame a coutry in africa for its decision to legally oppress gay people,

but you have 0 issues blaming western people, who also dont control their own corrupt leaders, for the actions of people who died hundreds of years ago... as well as the actions of other nations corrupt leaders...

sure that makes sense *rolls eyes*

I think I will go take a nap on this big pile of money I personally stole from the starving africans, with all their fine wives that I also stole, instead of fixing all their problems for them personally, as is my obligation.

**Ensis Ferrae**

Alexzandvar wrote:

Jihadin wrote:
Lol EQ Next. A game hardly played in Muslim countries due to all the Gods in the game

Alright m8 Ill bite, whats you beef with Muslims? Your from the USA yes? IS this just blind patriotism or trolling?

He, like me, has spent a considerable amount of time in the ME, where said Muslims were literally trying to kill us. Now, his experience is no doubt different from mine, but the locales where I was in Iraq both times, the extremist/terrorist/insurgent looks incredibly close to the same as an "average mohammed" And in fact, even if that average bloke wasn't actively shooting at us, laying bombs, etc. he sure as gak was supporting his local networks in any other way he could. It's just that, in my experience the excuse used here in the US that "Islam is a peaceful religion" is such a load of horse gak, even the flies won't touch it.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

easysauce wrote:
so africans making african laws is the west's fault...

Don't worry easy, I agree with you... At some point you gotta cut the apron strings and let them go. I honestly feel that we have given them enough of the benefit of the doubt, and given enough aid that only helps the corrupt, etc. that the whole continent is just beyond repair. (Well, South Africa has some hope, but they are moving at their own speed, and are obviously good enough off that we dont need to help them)

**LordofHats**

It's just that, in my experience the excuse used here in the US that "Islam is a peaceful religion" is such a load of horse gak, even the flies won't touch it.

Flies wouldn't touch the argument that Islam is to blame for all the Middle Easts problems either, which is what apologists in the US are really arguing against (poorly). A narrow interpretation of Middle Eastern culture to include Islam to the exclusion of any other regional or historical social influences isn't very convincing.

What is confusing for this case is the idea that Nigeria wouldn't be anti-gay if not for Western influence.Maybe religious influence from Christianity and Islam are playing a role in turning up the heat in Nigeria on this issue, but does anyone really think Nigeria would be a bastion of gay tolerance and acceptance were those two forces not present? That's horse gak.

**Ensis Ferrae**

LordofHats wrote:
It's just that, in my experience the excuse used here in the US that "Islam is a peaceful religion" is such a load of horse gak, even the flies won't touch it.

Flies wouldn't touch the argument that Islam is to blame for all the Middle Easts problems either, which is what apologists in the US are really arguing against (poorly). A narrow interpretation of Middle Eastern culture to include Islam to the exclusion of any other regional or historical social influences isn't very convincing.

What is confusing for this case is the idea that Nigeria wouldn't be anti-gay if not for Western influence.Maybe religious influence from Christianity and Islam are playing a role in turning up the heat in Nigeria on this issue, but does anyone really think Nigeria would be a bastion of gay tolerance and acceptance were those two forces not present? That's horse gak.

Lord, I also spent some small time, during my time in Iraq, with the Yazidi's who are one of the coolest minority groups in the whole damn country. But I will say that the large bulk of issues in the Middle East stem from beliefs held by Muslims, so by extension, Islam is a major contributing factor.

I do agree with your second paragraph though, IMO, if anything, if they had NO Western Influence, then they'd be even MORE homophobic than they already are... As we can see from previous reports that tribesman were/are hunting down albinos for their "magic properties" in many African nations.

**Medium of Death**

easysauce wrote:
Medium of Death wrote:
We all know it's the fault of people that are born there that their country sucks.

I'm sorry dying African child, your corrupt leaders that you can't do anything about and didn't have a say in retaining aren't a concern for the West. Deal with it yourself... if you grow up.

It's hard for people in a position with nothing to stand up for themselves, and the West ends up picking up the pieces anyway. It kind of hard to ignore the innocent parties that get caught up in all the clusterfeths that go on in that region.

so africans making african laws is the west's fault... and all of africa is "helpless starving children with nothing"... very stereotypical view you have there.

sounds like the only thing you know about africa is what you hear on tv "sponser a child" commercials...

just FYI, there are plenty of adults over there, who DO excercise their power to change... why do you think so many african cultures are commiting genocide/ethnic cleansing on themselves?

ok there!

so its bad to blame a coutry in africa for its decision to legally oppress gay people,

but you have 0 issues blaming western people, who also dont control their own corrupt leaders, for the actions of people who died hundreds of years ago... as well as the actions of other nations corrupt leaders...

sure that makes sense *rolls eyes*

I think I will go take a nap on this big pile of money I personally stole from the starving africans, with all their fine wives that I also stole, instead of fixing all their problems for them personally, as is my obligation.

I don't think I blamed Western people? I was suggesting that it isn't the fault of Africans that they are governed by despotic nutjobs. I'm speaking more generally here. I mean if 90% of people in Nigeria think it's fine for gay people to be imprisioned that's there business, we shouldn't deal with them. But your "Africa should sort itself out" attitude goes beyond that single issue. I also stated that frequently the West picks up the pieces, so why not help prevent situations before they become worse?

**Ma55ter_fett**

Ban their football team from playing anywhere that isn't Nigeria.

They'll sell their souls for a bottle of water once the fires break out.

**Ensis Ferrae**

Ma55ter_fett wrote:
Ban their football team from playing anywhere that isn't Nigeria.

This.... It woulda worked in South Africa with Rugby, and I'm fairly certain that it's worked before on other countries (but I have no idea what countries that is)

**marv335**

hotsauceman1 wrote:
Send in the troops I say and kill their leaders. But we wont because there is nothing of value there

Other than the absolute fethton of oil.

**Dreadclaw69**

Easy E wrote:
The original article is messed up. Now, let's compare and contrast it with Russia's laws.

Enjoy.

I was just thinking the same thing.

As far as Nigeria, well with Boko Harem still on the go there you'd be amazed by how little I am surprised at this development. And, as we can already see, people are already stretching to blame 'The West' for anything that goes wrong in Africa because colonialism (Nigeria has been independent since 1960), but some people would be happy for us to get involved and foist our own culture on the Nigerians (oblivious to the cultural imperialism that would entail)

**AlmightyWalrus**

Dreadclaw69 wrote:
Easy E wrote:
The original article is messed up. Now, let's compare and contrast it with Russia's laws.

Enjoy.

I was just thinking the same thing.

As far as Nigeria, well with Boko Harem still on the go there you'd be amazed by how little I am surprised at this development. And, as we can already see, people are already stretching to blame 'The West' for anything that goes wrong in Africa because colonialism (Nigeria has been independent since 1960), but some people would be happy for us to get involved and foist our own culture on the Nigerians (oblivious to the cultural imperialism that would entail)

Pointing out that the West still very much has a big influence on the development in Africa is not blaming the West for anything that goes wrong in Africa. Until you stop pretending that's the case this topic isn't going to lead to anything meaningful at all.

Just for the record, I'd blame most of this on Saudi Arabia. Wahhabism is not a very pleasant form of Islam, in my opinion, for the same reason that any extreme form of religion is unpleasant.

**Dreadclaw69**

I'll let you go back and re-read my comment, and those before it trying to blame the West for the current situation in parts of Africa.

Yes, the West can influence other nations. But whenever some people blame the West for things going wrong in a given country because of it's imperial and colonial past it strikes me as strange that these same people want us to start a process of cultural imperialism on these countries.

Until you stop distorting what I actually said then this topic isn't going to lead to anything meaningful at all

**Easy E**

When do we start seeing Emails that say...

"Hello, I'm a jailed Nigerian Homosexual and I need your help. I have a large $$$ amount at my estate but I can not get to it until I am freed from jail. Please send my bail money of $$$ and I will provide you a shar eof my wealth once I am released.

Thanks,
Jailed Nigerian Homosexual"

**AlmightyWalrus**

Dreadclaw69 wrote:
I'll let you go back and re-read my comment, and those before it trying to blame the West for the current situation in parts of Africa.

Yes, the West can influence other nations. But whenever some people blame the West for things going wrong in a given country because of it's imperial and colonial past it strikes me as strange that these same people want us to start a process of cultural imperialism on these countries.

...that hasn't happened in this thread.

Not meaningful indeed.

**Da Boss**

There are some disgusting paternalistic donkey-caves in this thread.
Rule 1 be fething damned.
Jesus.

**Frazzled**

Da Boss wrote:
There are some disgusting paternalistic donkey-caves in this thread.
Rule 1 be fething damned.
Jesus.

I'm sensing some boos from the peanut crowd.

**Steve steveson**

Odd to see so many people complaining about this when not that long ago it was illegal to be openly gay and in the armed forces in the UK and the US. I'm not saying this law is right, because it is sure as hell not, but all this screaming and shouting is a little rich...

**Ensis Ferrae**

Steve steveson wrote:
Odd to see so many people complaining about this when not that long ago it was illegal to be openly gay and in the armed forces in the UK and the US. I'm not saying this law is right, because it is sure as hell not, but all this screaming and shouting is a little rich...

I think though, that there is a HUUUUUGE difference between "you like dudes/girls, so we think you are unfit for military service" to "you like dudes, and you're a dude, so we're gonna put you in prison or worse"

As someone who's been in the military for almost 10 now, I'll tell you what has changed since it became OK for gays to openly serve..... Nothin. Infantry is still infantry, and everyone still does their jobs. The actual homophobes in the military were in reality, quite rare.

**Dreadclaw69**

AlmightyWalrus wrote:
...that hasn't happened in this thread.

Not meaningful indeed.

If you'd care to read the thread, you would in fact find examples of what I had mentioned. In fact my comment echoes part of your conversation with easysauce. Instead you'd rather go for some pithy comment, and complain about something not being meaningful.

**djones520**

Steve steveson wrote:
Odd to see so many people complaining about this when not that long ago it was illegal to be openly gay and in the armed forces in the UK and the US. I'm not saying this law is right, because it is sure as hell not, but all this screaming and shouting is a little rich...

Illegal? Hardly.

It was just a breach of policy. Being a homosexual in the military could not result in criminal charges (certain homosexual acts could, but simply being homosexual would not). Those found out were simply separated under a general discharge. They were not given bad conducts, or dishonorables. They were not sent to jail. They were not given NJP.

There was nothing illegal about it.

**Jihadin**

Upside of it...they're in jail with a bunch of other guys.....

**deoverbum**

This law doesn’t surprise me, much of my family is from Nigeria and I grew up in a neighbouring nation and homosexuality is without a doubt in the mind of most people living in west Africa(or the parts I have family in) a horrid crime.

It’s the sort of thing that if your mother found out you better not be coming home. But this move from what I have heard(from family mind you and my family or at least my step fathers family is pretty high up in Nigeria) rest more on political grounds than moral ones and is partiality an attempt to tell Europe(France in particular) to

off and that we can do what we want and are free to change our laws to match our culture. Secondly and perhaps more importantly it’s the leaders giving a carrot to the people.

Last year saw several deadly riots, acts of terrorism and general public discontent with the government due to corruption and poor distribution of wealth from Nigeria’s oil business. The Muslim minority in the north are the poorest in the nation and main group who are discontent, this law appeals to them as well as to the christen majority who hold much more power in terms of government than the Muslims( they don’t vote often) . hope this post was informative and not to complex or unreadable.

**sebster**

I find it fascinating that laws that were accepted an common across the Western world just a couple of generations ago are now being used to claim some other country is beyond help or needs to destroyed. The way in which revulsion to anti-gay bigotry can be turned in to anti-African bigotry is fascinating.

Jihadin wrote:
Key word. "Muslim" country

Nigeria is pretty close to 50/50 Muslim and Christian, with Muslims just slightly ahead.

And it isn't as though African Christianity has ever shown any kind of tolerance towards homosexuality, so your distinction is really very pointless.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Alexzandvar wrote:
Still, we have a long way to go in our own country in regards to gay rights. The rest of the civilized world has gotten past it, so should we.

Some parts of the civilised world have. Most of us are still struggling to full and proper acceptance, just as you guys in the US are.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Jihadin wrote:
Nigerian leaders are Muslims. Nigeria going down the road to a hardcore musloim country.

Goodluck Jonothan is a Christian. The name really should have given it away.

**Yodhrin**

Jihadin wrote:
In a hardcore muslim country. If a woman is raped she can be executed for committing adultry. Nigerian leaders are Muslims. Nigeria going down the road to a hardcore musloim country.

And Uganda's anti-gay laws are the result of fanatical evangelical christianity imported from America by missionaries, don't make this out to be "them crazy muslim barbarians!", it's what happens to a country when the populace don't have adequate access to education, and extremist versions of religious beliefs are imported in by people who've lost their culture-wars elsewhere.

**Skinnereal**

We're only a few years on from similar happening in 'civilised' countries.
Turing has only just been pardoned for being gay here in Britain, and we consider our laws and society to be fairly gay-friendly.

So, reports of anti-gay laws in other parts of the world are hardly surprising, and just shows how different societies are on certain things.
But as news and media gets around the world attitudes change, and in decades to come, there may not be any laws classed as 'anti-gay'.
Put that down alongside World Peace, though.

Until then, allow people to claim asylum for this kind of thing. Sitting back and watching is one thing, helping those who ask for it, it's a step towards 'doing something' about the problem of bigotry and closed-mindedness.

**Easy E**

deoverbum wrote:

Last year saw several deadly riots, acts of terrorism and general public discontent with the government due to corruption and poor distribution of wealth from Nigeria’s oil business. The Muslim minority in the north are the poorest in the nation and main group who are discontent, this law appeals to them as well as to the christen majority who hold much more power in terms of government than the Muslims( they don’t vote often) . hope this post was informative and not to complex or unreadable.

So you are saying this is a political move to focus the people's attention on a different threat instead of on how incompetent the government is? Man, I feel like their is a Godwin moment coming on.

In other news, a report on NPR says that torture is being used on the detained men so they will confess other "gay" people. In addition, unfair/illegal police processes to entrap/arrest people.

**Ensis Ferrae**

Easy E wrote:
In addition, unfair/illegal police processes to entrap/arrest people.

Perhaps a human rights violation for sure, but whether it's illegal is probably anyone's guess. I barely know half of our laws, much less any of the laws in some backwater African country. Unfair? Sure, but then life is generally unfair to people.