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Hi Martel, thanks for the advice on what todo to beat my friends armies, I find it hard quite hard to win because I only play space wolves, he can tailor his force somewhat to try and mitigate any weaknesses he perceives that he has.

Could you not use scouts as sniper wit the always wounds on 4's or whatever and longer range, or use telion to get precision shooting to take out the specials and wolf guard, what about land speeder storms to use blind and try and debilitate them in hth that way.

Take out transports to slow them down or if drop podding take out the drop pods for easy kill vp's and first blood, just like normal marines we cant assault out of the drop pod so back away and keep firing, concentrtate on 1 threat at a time, try double team, 2 squads on one for numerical and weight of fire advantages and create your own kill zones

Shoot the transports out from under them so thay have to slog across the field getting heavy boltered and rocket launched at superior ranges.

Use scouts as sacrificial units to draw the wolves out of formation, and if they dont bite use th scouts to steal and contest objectives ie kill the wolf priest or wolf guard and the bloodclaws must charge the enemy unit in range so do that and plonk a unit 11" away and watch them fail the charge and shoot the crap out of them!!

Try and stay mobile and not get bogged down, again if it looks like they'll catch you try and use a small sacrificial unit to hold them up a turn... or combat squad so although you are bite sized ther is far too many of you for me to get to and you have more chancer of getting objectives linebreaker etc which WILL win you most games.

Use blessings on your troops to buff them as Rune Priests cant dispell those I believe to give you more of an advantage too, perfect timing for instance or prescience.

Use a redeemer because those things are tough and with AP3 flame storm cannons and an assault cannon which can rend and wound on 2's and twin linked it can put a serious crimp in a LD8 units day.

Dont go into it in a negative frame of mind, cos if you've already lost psychologically, you have almost surely lost physically too.

There are ways and means, its just finding what works for you and against your opponent. and sticking with it.

 dantay_xv wrote:

Use blessings on your troops to buff them as Rune Priests cant dispell those I believe to give you more of an advantage too, perfect timing for instance or prescience.

That's the thing; they can. It's part of the reason we're so annoyed, no one else can.

Ah that I didnt know, so my apologies... I never have, I always treated mine like normal psykers

 dantay_xv wrote:
anpu42 I suggest you hit the ignore button...

Whoa there's an ignore button?!

So there is! Awesome

Cheers dantay

Space Wolf players have the extraordinary ability to consider pointing out mathematically factual data as "whining".

If you guys ever army swapped with another meq list, maybe you'd join in the chorus of "whining".

Martel732 wrote:
Space Wolf players have the extraordinary ability to consider pointing out mathematically factual data as "whining".

If you guys ever army swapped with another meq list, maybe you'd join in the chorus of "whining".

The only Space Maraine Army I don't Play is the Black Templars, and that might change in the near furture as I am plying around with a Black Templar List. This includes Blood Angels, Dark Angels and Grey Knights.

Other than the change in play style I have never seen much real difrence in the actualy Power Level. The Space Wolves are better, but not THAT much better.

Martel732 wrote:
Space Wolf players have the extraordinary ability to consider pointing out mathematically factual data as "whining".

If you guys ever army swapped with another meq list, maybe you'd join in the chorus of "whining".

Saying "Space Marine + 1" is not mathematically factual data

No, but this is from my previous post:

"Okay here's thing: let's say I'm playing Tyranids. If my gaunts get a charge off against a tactical squad, I'm probably going to win that fight. If I get a charge off against a squad of grey hunters, I'm going to die like slime. The tactical marines and grey hunters cost practically the same. Why is that for a completely different outcome? What do grey hunters give up to be able to squash my gaunts? The answer appears to be nothing. Hence, special snowflake status. "

Getting TRIPLE CC attacks when charged is a mathematical reality. It basically means the SW never have to even think about assaulting. Ever. Nor do they ever care if they are assaulted. They can just stand and shoot and ignore that phase of the game.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Anpu42 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Space Wolf players have the extraordinary ability to consider pointing out mathematically factual data as "whining".

If you guys ever army swapped with another meq list, maybe you'd join in the chorus of "whining".

The only Space Maraine Army I don't Play is the Black Templars, and that might change in the near furture as I am plying around with a Black Templar List. This includes Blood Angels, Dark Angels and Grey Knights.

Other than the change in play style I have never seen much real difrence in the actualy Power Level. The Space Wolves are better, but not THAT much better.

So you're telling me that you haven't noticed against other lists that assault when assault element hit GH they disintegrate, and when they hit tactical marines they run them over? This has somehow escaped your notice?

If you really played BA to any extent you'd know that after the FC nerf, the BA basically can't beat SW. Although come to think of it, even with the 5th ed FC, I'm not sure I'd have the stones to bring power swords instead of axes anyway. Ugh the BA are terrible in 6th.

Martel732 wrote:
No, but this is from my previous post:

"Okay here's thing: let's say I'm playing Tyranids. If my gaunts get a charge off against a tactical squad, I'm probably going to win that fight. If I get a charge off against a squad of grey hunters, I'm going to die like slime. The tactical marines and grey hunters cost practically the same. Why is that for a completely different outcome? What do grey hunters give up to be able to squash my gaunts? The answer appears to be nothing. Hence, special snowflake status. "


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Anpu42 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Space Wolf players have the extraordinary ability to consider pointing out mathematically factual data as "whining".

If you guys ever army swapped with another meq list, maybe you'd join in the chorus of "whining".

The only Space Maraine Army I don't Play is the Black Templars, and that might change in the near furture as I am plying around with a Black Templar List. This includes Blood Angels, Dark Angels and Grey Knights.

Other than the change in play style I have never seen much real difrence in the actualy Power Level. The Space Wolves are better, but not THAT much better.

So you're telling me that you haven't noticed against other lists that assault when assault element hit GH they disintegrate, and when they hit tactical marines they run them over? This has somehow escaped your notice?

If you really played BA to any extent you'd know that after the FC nerf, the BA basically can't beat SW.

Well to be honest I have not played against Space Wolves since 2nd Edition.

As for Space Marines assaulting my Space Wolves, the other players just don’t do it, they stay at 25” and Blast my Grey Hunters with Orbital Bombardments, Heavy Bolters, Las-Cannons and Missile Launchers as much as possible.
The only Assaulting I receive from Marines is from Vanguard Vets with Storm Shields and Power Weapons.





Automatically Appended Next Post:
An attempt to get back on Subject:
Dreadnaughts:
I want them to be basically left alone, but with some minor things.
>Able to take a Second Power Fist
>Power Weapons as an option
>Wolf Claws an Option
>Venerable Dreadnaughts being able to Frost Weapons
>Björn getting either an extra Hull Point or a Belt of Russ [4++ Save]
>Björn getting his Wolf Claw back.

"Well to be honest I have not played against Space Wolves since 2nd Edition. "

You should do this, if nothing else to improve your own game. But you will also see the frustration of facing them with the lesser chapters.

"As for Space Marines assaulting my Space Wolves, the other players just don’t do it, they stay at 25” and Blast my Grey Hunters with Orbital Bombardments, Heavy Bolters, Las-Cannons and Missile Launchers as much as possible.
The only Assaulting I receive from Marines is from Vanguard Vets with Storm Shields and Power Weapons. "

Don't you think a "chapter tactic" that makes your list unassaultable by other meqs is a bit much?

Martel732 wrote:
Don't you think a "chapter tactic" that makes your list unassaultable by other meqs is a bit much?

Could you rephrase that?
It makes little sense to me.

 Anpu42 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Don't you think a "chapter tactic" that makes your list unassaultable by other meqs is a bit much?

Could you rephrase that?
It makes little sense to me.

Basically the CCW and counterattack of SW makes it impossible for other meqs to assault them. That is far more powerful than any chapter tactic in 6th edition C:SM codex.

Martel, Like I pointed out to you before there are ways and means to beat space wolves and grey hunters and often without needing to try close combat.

Its just whether you choose to use those ideas we gave you or not and just keep complaining.

The difference between a tactical marine and a grey hunter... The tac marine is a jack of all trades he can shoot pretty well , he has some longrange abilities and he also has special weapons for hitting hard in close at armour or orks, it depends how you choose to kit them out and specialise them.

Grey Hunters are specialists, they specialise in close quarters fighting, close in, shoot and mop up. Are they good at what they do... sure! But they also have their deficiencies... they lack combat squadding to maximise the chances to take objectives, they lack the abaility to take the heavy weapon which can snipe at tanks from a distance and again combat squadding, you snipe with the missile launcher take out the tank and use other combat squadS to hose down what comes out... A grey hunter runs up to the tank, getting shot at to thin them down, meltas or in some other way takes it out and is then standing there getting shot to bits by any support the opponent has and waiting for the assault.

You can take sargeants as part of your 10 and keep the special/ heavy weapon... Grey Hunters cant its either 10 guys and 2 special weapons or pay lots for wolf hunter upgrade and lose the extra special weapon... and yes oh woes combi-melta and power weapon.... combi meltas are a 1 shot deal and guess what?? your sargeant gets a power weapon too.... So qquit the snowflake marine gak will you?

And dont mention Long Fangs, they get split fire because they are the gakking veterans, they are the sargeant which should be in the grey hunter packs, but they arent tey got (because of fluff) lumped into 1 unit.
Standard devastators are just standard marines and you can bulk your devastator squads to 10 men, and you can combat squad so you can split the heavy weapons up and oh wow, you have your own form of split fire, and oh wow those extra guys without heavy weapons they can stand in front of the heavies and absorb the punishment instead keeping your big guns shooting longer and providing covering fire too.....

So Space Wolves and Marines are broadly equal, they just have different methods of getting the job done....

So instead of whining about how OP Space wolves are, how about you sit down and work on ways of beating them.... maybe change your play style because it obviously doesnt work for you!!

Out of curiosity, in the big tournaments when was the last time the wolves were at the top table or winning?

And dont even start on snowflake libbies, because yo have also done that one to death.

In 5th Blood Angels rules gave them a +1 to their initiative which meant if they charged grey hunters they went first and so could do damage before grey hunters could hit back.

It is a shame they lost tis in 6th, granted.

I am sorry Martel, but you are Fired!!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And on topic a +1 to Anpu's suggestion for Bjorn the Fell-handed

Martel732 wrote:

 Anpu42 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Don't you think a "chapter tactic" that makes your list unassaultable by other meqs is a bit much?

Could you rephrase that?
It makes little sense to me.

Basically the CCW and counterattack of SW makes it impossible for other meqs to assault them. That is far more powerful than any chapter tactic in 6th edition C:SM codex.

No not realy. The other Space Marine players just dont Assualt me. When I pull out my Space Wolves go into a Gun Line mode. All of a sudden all of thois useless Heavy Bolters, Las-Cannons and Missile Launchers in thier Tactical Squads start to kill me without having to move at range. One even uses a 4 HB Devistator Squad mixed with Imperial Fist Chapter Tactics so they don't miss much. this leaves me the choice of sitting back and take fire without being able to retaliate or advance. Once I advance I become subject to his AP3/AP3 weapons without Cover Saves. Once more the Imperial Fist Chapter Tactics makes shure there is not a lot of missing.
The other Player is a Salimander Player who takes Vulcan for every game. That makes most of his Tactical Squads, Combi-Flamer, Flamer, Multi-Melta, not a goos choice to Attault. The only PA unit that does not use Multi-Meltas is his Sternguard whoi is loaded with 2 Heavy Flamers and 8 Combi-Flamers, Even the Orks and Nids won't Assualt that.
Now if I pod in i can midiage this, but I still have to sit for a turn before I can Assualt geting shot up. If I survive I got a good chance of winning, High Risk, High Gain.

The single heavy weapon in tac squads often makes them worse, not better. Combat squads? You have to take more than six troop choices now until combat squads becomes useful.

Devastators are a bad heavy choice for marines. I honestly don't know what you are talking about here.

SW don't show up as tournament winners, because none of their advantages matter against Tau/Eldar/Screamerstars. But they do matter a LOT against other meqs.

As a marine player, I have *already paid for assault capability*. Simply stating "well, just don't use that" is supporting my argument, not going against it. SW invalidate the assault capability that marines have already paid for *just like Taudar do, just in a different way*.

I think part of the issue is that you and other SW players don't realize just how crappy tactical marines are.

Martel732 wrote:
Or how about you give me some advice about what I'm supposed to do against SW.

Just curious why it is the job of Space Wolf players to teach you how to defeat their armies? Figure it out. You have your codex, you obviously know a lot about the SW codex as well. There is always a way. Even the currently "Unbreakable" Tau gun line and supporting overwatch fire is being broken by plenty of players who took the time to figure out how to achieve it. If you expect others to detail it for you, then you'll never find a solution to the problem. Stop being a victim and work it out.

Yep there are some things in the wolf book that need toning down. NONE of those have anything to do with the reasons why Blood Angels are a poor army in the current edition of the game. I don't play blood angels for the same reason I don't buy into the "A khorne chaos marine army should be made up entirely of berserkers" mentality with my khorne chaos marines either: They are horribly self limiting and leave the army easily vulnerable to being wiped out before it gets close enough to do anything useful.

Skriker

So Space Wolves and Marines are broadly equal, they just have different methods of getting the job done....

Not really, ablative wounds for combat squadded devastators are expensive, and usually shot out quick.

Also as mentioned..You don't really combat squad in most cases, because why not just take another troop choice to maximize firepower? The GH specalist is what allows it to be far, far better then the Tac Squad, if they could take two specials or two heavys instead, but as they cannot they are just far poorer.

 Skriker wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Or how about you give me some advice about what I'm supposed to do against SW.

Just curious why it is the job of Space Wolf players to teach you how to defeat their armies? Figure it out. You have your codex, you obviously know a lot about the SW codex as well. There is always a way. Even the currently "Unbreakable" Tau gun line and supporting overwatch fire is being broken by plenty of players who took the time to figure out how to achieve it. If you expect others to detail it for you, then you'll never find a solution to the problem. Stop being a victim and work it out.

Yep there are some things in the wolf book that need toning down. NONE of those have anything to do with the reasons why Blood Angels are a poor army in the current edition of the game. I don't play blood angels for the same reason I don't buy into the "A khorne chaos marine army should be made up entirely of berserkers" mentality with my khorne chaos marines either: They are horribly self limiting and leave the army easily vulnerable to being wiped out before it gets close enough to do anything useful.

Skriker

Of course I know what to do to Space Wolves. Stay the hell away and try to outshoot them. Although taking on SW with a TAC list and not tailoring for them is a tricky proposition with meqs. SW are a very hard matchup for any meq list because you only have the one option: outshoot them. Last I checked, meq lists were notorious for lack of firepower.

I was asking that as a mental exercise to try to get these people to think about what its like the face their own lists.

Blast us from Range and from the Air. The Two Armies that give me a real hard time are Artillery Imperial Guard and Space Marines loaded up for Range.
Blood Angels have the tools:
>Stormravens
>Whirlwinds
>Devastators Loaded up with Las-Cannons, Missile Launchers and Plasma Cannons.
>Fire Raptor Gunship [IA]
>Predator Executioner [IA]

Or his us Quick and Hard
>Fast Ball Predators loaded with Dakka or Flamers
>Fast Vindicators
>Fast Predators
>Fast Whirlwinds
>Fast Predator Executioner
>Bike Squads
>Attack Bike Squadrons [IA]

 Anpu42 wrote:
Blast us from Range and from the Air. The Two Armies that give me a real hard time are Artillery Imperial Guard and Space Marines loaded up for Range.
Blood Angels have the tools:
>Stormravens
>Whirlwinds
>Devastators Loaded up with Las-Cannons, Missile Launchers and Plasma Cannons.
>Fire Raptor Gunship [IA]
>Predator Executioner [IA]

Or his us Quick and Hard
>Fast Ball Predators loaded with Dakka or Flamers
>Fast Vindicators
>Fast Predators
>Fast Whirlwinds
>Fast Predator Executioner
>Bike Squads
>Attack Bike Squadrons [IA]

But without list tailoring, am I going to have these tools in a TAC list? THAT'S my problem with SW. They are another matchup that screams "marines need to tailor".

This might clear things up a lot: are the SW posters on here tailoring their lists and having their opponents tailor their lists to them as well? Because if you play in a tailoring environment, you are not going to understand why the SW are so powerful against other meqs.

Martel732 wrote:

 Anpu42 wrote:
Blast us from Range and from the Air. The Two Armies that give me a real hard time are Artillery Imperial Guard and Space Marines loaded up for Range.
Blood Angels have the tools:
>Stormravens
>Whirlwinds
>Devastators Loaded up with Las-Cannons, Missile Launchers and Plasma Cannons.
>Fire Raptor Gunship [IA]
>Predator Executioner [IA]

Or his us Quick and Hard
>Fast Ball Predators loaded with Dakka or Flamers
>Fast Vindicators
>Fast Predators
>Fast Whirlwinds
>Fast Predator Executioner
>Bike Squads
>Attack Bike Squadrons [IA]

But without list tailoring, am I going to have these tools in a TAC list? THAT'S my problem with SW. They are another matchup that screams "marines need to tailor".

And none of the units I have listed above will work against any other army, but Space Wolves?

Martel732 wrote:

If you guys ever army swapped with another meq list, maybe you'd join in the chorus of "whining".

Your assumption that space wolves players only play space wolves and no other meq forces is an inaccurate one. I have played chaos marines from rogue trader days and have soundly beaten wolves in every edition of the game with every incarnation of their codex without difficulty even back in the days when they were allowed to use leman russ tanks. Wolves are also my *4th* loyalist army. The first 2 were straight C:SM forces, the 3rd Dark Angels and the most recent wolves. Don't have the first two armies anymore, but regularly have and use 5 other MEQ armies in addition to my wolves. I have found no inherent weaknesses in any of my meq armies specifically against space wolves that are not normal threats from other quarters as well.

Edit: Also had a Daemonhunters army of greyhunters, but don't fully consider them a true meq list as they were highly specialized for daemons at the time.

Skriker

 Anpu42 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Anpu42 wrote:
Blast us from Range and from the Air. The Two Armies that give me a real hard time are Artillery Imperial Guard and Space Marines loaded up for Range.
Blood Angels have the tools:
>Stormravens
>Whirlwinds
>Devastators Loaded up with Las-Cannons, Missile Launchers and Plasma Cannons.
>Fire Raptor Gunship [IA]
>Predator Executioner [IA]

Or his us Quick and Hard
>Fast Ball Predators loaded with Dakka or Flamers
>Fast Vindicators
>Fast Predators
>Fast Whirlwinds
>Fast Predator Executioner
>Bike Squads
>Attack Bike Squadrons [IA]

But without list tailoring, am I going to have these tools in a TAC list? THAT'S my problem with SW. They are another matchup that screams "marines need to tailor".

And none of the units I have listed above will work against any other army, but Space Wolves?

Not nearly as well in many cases. Too many enemy lists than can outshoot the units you listed. Didn't you say you don't have to play against Eldar?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Skriker wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

If you guys ever army swapped with another meq list, maybe you'd join in the chorus of "whining".

Your assumption that space wolves players only play space wolves and no other meq forces is an inaccurate one. I have played chaos marines from rogue trader days and have soundly beaten wolves in every edition of the game with every incarnation of their codex without difficulty even back in the days when they were allowed to use leman russ tanks. Wolves are also my *4th* loyalist army. The first 2 were straight C:SM forces, the 3rd Dark Angels and the most recent wolves. Don't have the first two armies anymore, but regularly have and use 5 other MEQ armies in addition to my wolves. I have found no inherent weaknesses in any of my meq armies specifically against space wolves that are not normal threats from other quarters as well.

Skriker

So you haven't found assault being off the table to be any kind of a problem at all? Or SW having superior special weapons loadouts? If not, I'm not sure what to say about that.

 Skriker wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

If you guys ever army swapped with another meq list, maybe you'd join in the chorus of "whining".

Your assumption that space wolves players only play space wolves and no other meq forces is an inaccurate one. I have played chaos marines from rogue trader days and have soundly beaten wolves in every edition of the game with every incarnation of their codex without difficulty even back in the days when they were allowed to use leman russ tanks. Wolves are also my *4th* loyalist army. The first 2 were straight C:SM forces, the 3rd Dark Angels and the most recent wolves. Don't have the first two armies anymore, but regularly have and use 5 other MEQ armies in addition to my wolves. I have found no inherent weaknesses in any of my meq armies specifically against space wolves that are not normal threats from other quarters as well.

Skriker

Mostly the same here
1989: Space Wolves, Space Marines, Imperial Guard
2nd Edition: Space Wolves, Space Marines
3rd Edition: Space Wolves, Space Marines
4th Edition: Space Wolves, Space Marines, Dark Angels
5th Edition: Space Wolves, Space Marines, Dark Angels, Blood Angels, Grey Knights, Imperial Guard
6th Edition: Space Wolves, Space Marines, Dark Angels, Blood Angels, Grey Knights, Imperial Guard, Chaos Space Marines and building a Tau Army.

Then maybe you should be spamming up other peoples threads abou how gakky tacticals are compared to every other type of army in 40K
Because they cant beat space wolves.... and are outshot by everyone else...
If you built a take on everyone Codex marine list, say Ultramarines wht would that list be like? Say 1500 points, or even your Blood Angels... I am curious, what list do you normally use?

Martel732 wrote:
So you haven't found assault being off the table to be any kind of a problem at all? Or SW having superior special weapons loadouts? If not, I'm not sure what to say about that.

If I find myself fight an army with superior Assault Army Yes! Assault goes out the window!
I don’t adapt my Army, I adapt my Play Style.

And no our Weapon Load Outs are not superior. It takes away Tactical Options. Verses Guard it is a big disadvantage. The guard player the moment I start to pull out my Space Wolves out of the box and placing them on the table KNOWS I am going to have to come to him and can start to plan for that.
I also KNOW that I am going to have to Assault him to win, therefore I automatically “Loose the Initiative” so to speak and have to play his game. The same with Tau. It is very easy to take away my tactical options. At least Space Marines can fake it.

Martel732 wrote:
As a marine player, I have *already paid for assault capability*. Simply stating "well, just don't use that" is supporting my argument, not going against it. SW invalidate the assault capability that marines have already paid for *just like Taudar do, just in a different way*.

I think part of the issue is that you and other SW players don't realize just how crappy tactical marines are.

The real issue here is that you just want to complain and that is all there is to it. You blow off any tactical suggestions that people have and pull reasons why out of thin air that had nothing to do with the discussion at hand. The simplest solution to units that are tough to assault: Pound them into paste with long range fire, yet apparently that simplest of tactical axioms is an imposition on YOUR army because you have already paid for assault capability as a marine player. Yeah sure.

Skriker

 dantay_xv wrote:
Then maybe you should be spamming up other peoples threads abou how gakky tacticals are compared to every other type of army in 40K
Because they cant beat space wolves.... and are outshot by everyone else...
If you built a take on everyone Codex marine list, say Ultramarines wht would that list be like? Say 1500 points, or even your Blood Angels... I am curious, what list do you normally use?

So for BA, I have distilled myself down to three main builds:

1) Light mech with a single ASM unit for counter-assault purposes.

Long fangs are custom made for crippling this list. As plasma guns can take out razorbacks, this doesn't work that well either.

2) Drop pod sternguard/fragnoughts with ASM jumpers for troops.

This list is pure suicide against SW.

3) Heavy mech (LR/pred/vindi) with Mephiston HQ.

Probably the best of the lot vs SW, but I don't use this that much anymore because of FMC/grav.

For counts-as-C:SM, the lists get a lot more varied. I haven't actually taken on SW with grav bikers yet. I suppose that's in the marine player's favor, but I haven't thought that hard about it. Dev cents are kind of a problem, since the long fangs can't usually hurt them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Skriker wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
As a marine player, I have *already paid for assault capability*. Simply stating "well, just don't use that" is supporting my argument, not going against it. SW invalidate the assault capability that marines have already paid for *just like Taudar do, just in a different way*.

I think part of the issue is that you and other SW players don't realize just how crappy tactical marines are.

The real issue here is that you just want to complain and that is all there is to it. You blow off any tactical suggestions that people have and pull reasons why out of thin air that had nothing to do with the discussion at hand. The simplest solution to units that are tough to assault: Pound them into paste with long range fire, yet apparently that simplest of tactical axioms is an imposition on YOUR army because you have already paid for assault capability as a marine player. Yeah sure.

Skriker

Actually, I'm not doing that at all. I had a simple question: are you folks list tailoring or not? Because I may not HAVE the long range fire to pound them into paste in a TAC list. And if you compare the firepower of a marine list to that of a Xeno list, it's an imposition on ALL marine lists whether you think it is or not.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Anpu42 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
So you haven't found assault being off the table to be any kind of a problem at all? Or SW having superior special weapons loadouts? If not, I'm not sure what to say about that.

If I find myself fight an army with superior Assault Army Yes! Assault goes out the window!
I don’t adapt my Army, I adapt my Play Style.

And no our Weapon Load Outs are not superior. It takes away Tactical Options. Verses Guard it is a big disadvantage. The guard player the moment I start to pull out my Space Wolves out of the box and placing them on the table KNOWS I am going to have to come to him and can start to plan for that.
I also KNOW that I am going to have to Assault him to win, therefore I automatically “Loose the Initiative” so to speak and have to play his game. The same with Tau. It is very easy to take away my tactical options. At least Space Marines can fake it.

Fake it with the same results. Realize that the IG were the proto-version of the Taudar armies of 6th edition. The guard don't CARE about your HTH tricks because that was never their plan to begin with. For the way the game unfolds in practice, I think SW weapon loadouts are superior, because the marines are supposed to be a mid-range list anyway, not long range.

So with your BA yuo like to specialise in your builds and forego some tactical flexibility?

Drop the light mech, bring in some of the heavier stuff, keep the counter assault squad back and build yourself a firebase behind an aegis line, or take a storm raven.
Shoot me down as come forward then mop up whatver gets into your lines. Use th drop pod with regular assault guys or if allowed death company, so I have to take them on before getting to you or ignore them and get shot/chopped up and let you hunt objectives.

How do these lists fare against other armies?

 dantay_xv wrote:
So with your BA yuo like to specialise in your builds and forego some tactical flexibility?

Drop the light mech, bring in some of the heavier stuff, keep the counter assault squad back and build yourself a firebase behind an aegis line, or take a storm raven.
Shoot me down as come forward then mop up whatver gets into your lines. Use th drop pod with regular assault guys or if allowed death company, so I have to take them on before getting to you or ignore them and get shot/chopped up and let you hunt objectives.

How do these lists fare against other armies?

Not well, because BA. However, it's interesting that SW are my hardest matchup behind Tau/Eldar/Daemons. I've done better against Necrons/C:SM than the SW.

BA costing makes for poor firebases and Stormravens have a tendency to show AFTER the drop pod SW have murdered everyone. And again, I'm not list tailoring. So I don't know to make the changes ahead of time. What if I draw an opponent where I need the assault elements?

How exactly does "mopping up" work against SW? How do I mop up troops I can't beat in HTH?

As I said, maybe things would go better with grav bikers. But SW can still drop pod them to death as well. The ability to drop pod in and not give a feth about counter assaults is absolutely amazing.