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Was that claimed?

Martel732 wrote:
Was that claimed?

It was. He said that a lascannon kills more than one marine a turn.

I completely missed that, lol.

 Anpu42 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
What superior range? What are you talking about? The single heavy weapon from tac squads? That's laughable firepower.

Well for some reason things like Las-Cannons kill at least one Marine a turn and Plasma Cannons 1-2 a Turn. Even with cover it still come out to an average of 2 Models aver 3 Turns.
So I have the choice of constantly loose Grey Hunter Models to sniping, or divert my Long Fang/Land Speeder fire to kill off Tactical Squads rather than big thing like Dreadnaughts, Predators or Devastator Squads.
Ignoring them and by the time his Assault Squads/Vanguard Vets getting there having about 4-7 Models left by Turn 5, where it is the most important.
Moving my Grey Hunters to go after his Tactical Squads opening myself to more fire.

When I am playing my Space Marines, I find my Tactical Plasma Cannons kill a lot of models and Transports.
My Heavy Bolters also kill at lot of models and even glance the occasional Transport when I have nothing else to shoot at.

So I find them useful.

This ^^

Probably the most incoherent defense of heavy weapons for tactical squads I've seen in a long time. I have quit using heavies in tactical squads because I find myself moving too often.

Martel732 wrote:
Probably the most incoherent defense of heavy weapons for tactical squads I've seen in a long time. I have quit using heavies in tactical squads because I find myself moving too often.

I use missile launchers, but that's because they're cheap as chips, versatile and I gunline my Black Templars (when you have Neophytes in your squad 1 less boltgun doesn't matter)

 BrotherOfBone wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Probably the most incoherent defense of heavy weapons for tactical squads I've seen in a long time. I have quit using heavies in tactical squads because I find myself moving too often.

I use missile launchers, but that's because they're cheap as chips, versatile and I gunline my Black Templars (when you have Neophytes in your squad 1 less boltgun doesn't matter)

I just don't like the temptation not to move just so I can fire one largely irrelevant heavy weapon.

Martel732 wrote:

 BrotherOfBone wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Probably the most incoherent defense of heavy weapons for tactical squads I've seen in a long time. I have quit using heavies in tactical squads because I find myself moving too often.

I use missile launchers, but that's because they're cheap as chips, versatile and I gunline my Black Templars (when you have Neophytes in your squad 1 less boltgun doesn't matter)

I just don't like the temptation not to move just so I can fire one largely irrelevant heavy weapon.

Can't blame you, I know how you feel. If I'm moving my Marines and I really have points to blow on heavy weapons I'll take a Heavy Bolter, because at least you can Snap Shot.

The point is is that the single heavy is damn joke. And some people, not just on this thread, try to act like the double special config of GH somehow makes the worse off. It doesn't.

C:SM can now simulate double special by taking two 5 man squads, but that takes two troop slots and they still don't get triple CC attacks when assaulted.

Martel732 wrote:
The point is is that the single heavy is damn joke. And some people, not just on this thread, try to act like the double special config of GH somehow makes the worse off. It doesn't.

C:SM can now simulate double special by taking two 5 man squads, but that takes two troop slots and they still don't get triple CC attacks when assaulted.

Meh. I like Black Templars Cursader Squads (sorry for going on about them but they're so much better than Tac Squads).
Las/plas in a 5 man squad.
I can have every member of a 5-man squad kitted out with special weaponry.
One with a power axe, one with a power fist, sarge with a power fist, lascannon and plasma gun. Not that I would, just saying.

Las/plas in a 5 man squad harkens back to 3rd edition. But that's a weird configuration for an assault army.

As for tac squads, it doesn't help that I have a heavy disdain for most Imperial heavy weapons available on marines. The only one I really like is the lascannon, even that is kinda bleh. This is why I've quit using devastators as well. That and helldrakes lol.

Martel732 wrote:
Las/plas in a 5 man squad harkens back to 3rd edition. But that's a weird configuration for an assault army.

As for tac squads, it doesn't help that I have a heavy disdain for most Imperial heavy weapons available on marines. The only one I really like is the lascannon, even that is kinda bleh. This is why I've quit using devastators as well. That and helldrakes lol.

Meh, most people don't assault with Crusaders.
I personally seem to do more with bolt pistols than I do with bolters, so yeah, even if I'm going shooty I still take BP+CCW.
Seriously, I took down a Carnifex, a Mawloc and a squad of warriors over 3 turns of shooting with 16 boltpistols. My opponent was not a happy bunny.
But anyway, I dislike the lascannon. I dislike anything that's one shot except meltaguns, because they're assault.

 BrotherOfBone wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
The point is is that the single heavy is damn joke. And some people, not just on this thread, try to act like the double special config of GH somehow makes the worse off. It doesn't.

C:SM can now simulate double special by taking two 5 man squads, but that takes two troop slots and they still don't get triple CC attacks when assaulted.

Meh. I like Black Templars Cursader Squads (sorry for going on about them but they're so much better than Tac Squads).
Las/plas in a 5 man squad.
I can have every member of a 5-man squad kitted out with special weaponry.
One with a power axe, one with a power fist, sarge with a power fist, lascannon and plasma gun. Not that I would, just saying.

You can have one Power Weapon, Fist OR Heavy Weapon, not all three at once.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 BrotherOfBone wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
The point is is that the single heavy is damn joke. And some people, not just on this thread, try to act like the double special config of GH somehow makes the worse off. It doesn't.

C:SM can now simulate double special by taking two 5 man squads, but that takes two troop slots and they still don't get triple CC attacks when assaulted.

Meh. I like Black Templars Cursader Squads (sorry for going on about them but they're so much better than Tac Squads).
Las/plas in a 5 man squad.
I can have every member of a 5-man squad kitted out with special weaponry.
One with a power axe, one with a power fist, sarge with a power fist, lascannon and plasma gun. Not that I would, just saying.

You can have one Power Weapon, Fist OR Heavy Weapon, not all three at once.

Realy? Must've misread that rule.

The only things I want are:
Rune Priest ML1 to be 70 points, ML2 to be 100
Psychic powers on a table with JotWW being 2 WC
AA for my long fangs
.... That's about it... I like how my wolves play, even against WAAC lists. I never give ground!

 Aleph-Sama wrote:
The only things I want are:
Rune Priest ML1 to be 70 points, ML2 to be 100
Psychic powers on a table with JotWW being 2 WC
AA for my long fangs
.... That's about it... I like how my wolves play, even against WAAC lists. I never give ground!

So basically. To stay overpowered with a debuff to JoTWW, and for everything else to get better.
Great.

So asking for some Anti aircraft is asking too much?
Asking for a table of powers to randomly generate your powers, like other librarians have is too much?
Maybe you are right Sw's should just get a lit like now and choose what they want.
A barebones level 1 rune priest (100 points)costs more than a level 2 librarian (90 points level 1 librarian 65 points)
A master of runes, level 2 is 15 points below tigurius(150 points as opposed to Tigurius at 165 points)
Get a grip man!
Yes cheaper rune priests, but maybe not as cheap as Aleph suggests.
Jotww is OP, but atleast hes saying make it 2 warp charge points so only level 2's can take it... Maybe weaken it or replace it with something less insane.
A lot of people have said and most SW players agree it needs tning down or gone.
Stop picking arguments for arguments sake.

At least in my area, there's a lot of hostility towards SW. Lots of players that have seen them be too good for too long. It's easy to end up picking arguments on this topic. Look how long this thread is.

As far as I'm concerned, you guys can have all the flakk missiles you want. Because they, along with MLs, suck hard in 6th.

 dantay_xv wrote:
So asking for some Anti aircraft is asking too much?
Asking for a table of powers to randomly generate your powers, like other librarians have is too much?
Maybe you are right Sw's should just get a lit like now and choose what they want.
A barebones level 1 rune priest (100 points)costs more than a level 2 librarian (90 points level 1 librarian 65 points)
A master of runes, level 2 is 15 points below tigurius(150 points as opposed to Tigurius at 165 points)
Get a grip man!
Yes cheaper rune priests, but maybe not as cheap as Aleph suggests.
Jotww is OP, but atleast hes saying make it 2 warp charge points so only level 2's can take it... Maybe weaken it or replace it with something less insane.
A lot of people have said and most SW players agree it needs tning down or gone.
Stop picking arguments for arguments sake.

You do get a far better anti-psyker defense (Best in the game) and anti-daemon force sword, +5 on a basic librarian is a bit cheap.

 dantay_xv wrote:
So asking for some Anti aircraft is asking too much?
Asking for a table of powers to randomly generate your powers, like other librarians have is too much?
Maybe you are right Sw's should just get a lit like now and choose what they want.
A barebones level 1 rune priest (100 points)costs more than a level 2 librarian (90 points level 1 librarian 65 points)
A master of runes, level 2 is 15 points below tigurius(150 points as opposed to Tigurius at 165 points)
Get a grip man!
Yes cheaper rune priests, but maybe not as cheap as Aleph suggests.
Jotww is OP, but atleast hes saying make it 2 warp charge points so only level 2's can take it... Maybe weaken it or replace it with something less insane.
A lot of people have said and most SW players agree it needs tning down or gone.
Stop picking arguments for arguments sake.

I rarely use JotWW anyways. I only use it against Tau. It's situational at best. In a game of dice, people complain about rolling a 6...

The prices on rune priests are high, but not by much. It's a second mastery level that hurts most. Oh, and Runic Weapons bring balance in a world of IRON ARM MCs, and INVISIBLE GRIMOIRE bearers, FARSEERS WITH RIPTIDES, AND FORWARNING SCREEMERSTARS.

Space Wolves aren't that OP anymore. They are fairly balanced right now. I rarely get tabled or table anyone else, even in tournaments. They are appropriately priced in an edition where prices keep dropping (sans the ML2 priests).

They are only balanced because Tau, Eldar, and Daemons ignore the aspects of SW that are OP. If you are Orks, BA, C:SM, or anyone that may want to assault someday, SW are as bad as ever. You just last a little longer than you do against Eldar.

As I said above, GH need to be at least 17 pts.

 dantay_xv wrote:
So asking for some Anti aircraft is asking too much?
Asking for a table of powers to randomly generate your powers, like other librarians have is too much?
Maybe you are right Sw's should just get a lit like now and choose what they want.
A barebones level 1 rune priest (100 points)costs more than a level 2 librarian (90 points level 1 librarian 65 points)
A master of runes, level 2 is 15 points below tigurius(150 points as opposed to Tigurius at 165 points)
Get a grip man!
Yes cheaper rune priests, but maybe not as cheap as Aleph suggests.
Jotww is OP, but atleast hes saying make it 2 warp charge points so only level 2's can take it... Maybe weaken it or replace it with something less insane.
A lot of people have said and most SW players agree it needs tning down or gone.
Stop picking arguments for arguments sake.

No I just think it's stupid that the person thinks JOTWW is the only thing unbalanced about the SW codex.

Yes zebio, but isnt a 35 points difference a bit high?

 dantay_xv wrote:
Yes zebio, but isnt a 35 points difference a bit high?

Not for a 4+ psychic denial bubble. It's the only way in the game to stop blessings.

Martel732 wrote:

 dantay_xv wrote:
Yes zebio, but isnt a 35 points difference a bit high?

Not for a 4+ psychic denial bubble. It's the only way in the game to stop blessings.

This Is okay. I understand the point level for the denial bubble. But if they lose the denial bubble (likely) they need a price drop bad.

17 points for a GH? REALLY? Why aren't C:SM 17 points? They have chapter tactics! THE EQUIVALENT OF OUR COUNTER ATTACK AND ACUTE SENSES! And they are 14 points, we are 15. +1 points for a CC weapon? Noise marines pay the same price for a CC weapon. Fair, even.

 Aleph-Sama wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 dantay_xv wrote:
Yes zebio, but isnt a 35 points difference a bit high?

Not for a 4+ psychic denial bubble. It's the only way in the game to stop blessings.

This Is okay. I understand the point level for the denial bubble. But if they lose the denial bubble (likely) they need a price drop bad.

17 points for a GH? REALLY? Why aren't C:SM 17 points? They have chapter tactics! THE EQUIVALENT OF OUR COUNTER ATTACK AND ACUTE SENSES! And they are 14 points, we are 15. +1 points for a CC weapon? Noise marines pay the same price for a CC weapon. Fair, even.

It's the interaction of CCW and Counter-attack.

"THE EQUIVALENT OF OUR COUNTER ATTACK AND ACUTE SENSES! "

But it's not.

None of the chapter tactics are nearly as good as counter attack/extra CC weapon. Except White Scars. In practice, some of the C:SM tac marines should be 12 or 13 because their chapter tactic sucks.

I said at least as well. GH might even justify 18 because they absolutely wreck assault armies.

GH deserve a either a 1pt bump, more expensive upgrades, or just charge them +1pt to buy a CCW.

I think the best solution for GH is to drop them to 2 attacks when they get charged. Trying to balance them otherwise is just a headache.

Drop them to 2 attacks when they get charged or any turn they didn't charge, 3 attacks when they charge.

Otherwise you're never going to get people to agree on their worth because their worth varies wildly depending on who you play against.

Martel732 wrote:
None of the chapter tactics are nearly as good as counter attack/extra CC weapon. Except White Scars. In practice, some of the C:SM tac marines should be 12 or 13 because their chapter tactic sucks.

I said at least as well. GH might even justify 18 because they absolutely wreck assault armies.

Like Whom? Zerkers give me fits, my wife's DCA with Uriah get me everytime, 30 boys hitting me hurts, my brother's Death Company hits like a load of bricks... Plague marines don't charge me, noise marines shoot me, tau shoot me and avoid combat, eldar shoot and run away, DE scoot and shoot, grey knights psycannon me or dreadknight me in CC, Daemons drop princes in my face as well as screemers leaping over me, I can't catch a wave serpent to save my life, dakkafexes and flyrants drop 12+ str6 shots into me before charging, riptides and broadsides blast me off the map, whip coils irritate me, tesla kills for overwatch... PLEASE tell me where I can get a nice clean charge on something that's squishy, or where the idiot is who charges squishy things into grey hunters is so I can teach him some basic tactics against wolves.