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 Anpu42 wrote:

Grey Hunters need to go up a lot in terms of points or lose their counter-attack.

No they don’t, they are just fine were they are at. If we get a lot of other good options out there, there will be a lot less Grey Hunters out there for people to complain about.

Yeah, because the 10 pages of discussion on the topic totally didn't happen and GH are fine. /sarcasm

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

No they don’t, they are just fine were they are at. If we get a lot of other good options out there, there will be a lot less Grey Hunters out there for people to complain about.

Great, so instead we'll have things even worse then that, joy.

Also wow, that list got even more SM + 1 then before.

What I am talking about is with cheaper Blood Claws more of them would be feilded, Cheaper Predators, we would see more of them, Cheaper Land Speeders we would see more of them.

*cheaper.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
*cheaper.

Ceaper is correct, my spelling sucks!

No worries, don't mean to be a spelling Nazi, I just like it when people correct me if I'm repeatedly making the same mistake instead of letting me keep making it

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
No worries, don't mean to be a spelling Nazi, I just like it when people correct me if I'm repeatedly making the same mistake instead of letting me keep making it

No problems, thats why I use Word 90% of the time and then Copy/Paste.

...
'Our clearly overpowered troops choices are fine. If you made our other, underpowered options cheaper you'd make them OP, too and see less of our overpowered troops on the table! Great, huh?'
NO

 BrotherOfBone wrote:
...
'Our clearly overpowered troops choices are fine. If you made our other, underpowered options cheaper you'd make them OP, too and see less of our overpowered troops on the table! Great, huh?'
NO

Once more, Grey Hunters are not over powered becouse you can make their Counter Attack Worthless easy.
>Don't Assualt Them
>Shoot at them.
Grey Hunters can even make their Counter Attack Worthless by Assualting First.

The point that everyone is trying to make is that currently Space Wolves are vanilla marines +1 and are not costed to reflect that. Grey hunters either need a point increase or a reduction in ability. Making blood claws cheapre to promote use is not (imo) the proper solution to the simply fact that grey hunters are better than tactical marines when they should not be. Different? Yes but better no.

Wow, more Grey Hunter posts. I'm pretty sure if you took them out this thread would only be 15 pages long with stuff that actually would change how the codex looks like.

Personally, I've seen way too much of just change the point costs posts. Its like people don't actually want anything to change. Might as well not change anything then. Rather than fixing point costs, why not fix the unit itself so its worth the points it costs as of right now.

This will do two things. First the army stays elite and doesn't back down into the horde level of models on the table. Second it would help with the marines +1 comments since they obviously would be Marines +1 but wouldn't cost like marines and as such they might be a little more accepted over all because you couldn't just replace them with normal marines.

No I don;t want to start this again, but They are already Space Marines +1
Space Marines: Chapter Tactics [Your Choice], Combat Squads 14ppm
Grey Hunters: Chapter Tactics [Counter Attack], Add 1 CCW 15ppm

 Anpu42 wrote:

 BrotherOfBone wrote:
...
'Our clearly overpowered troops choices are fine. If you made our other, underpowered options cheaper you'd make them OP, too and see less of our overpowered troops on the table! Great, huh?'
NO

Once more, Grey Hunters are not over powered becouse you can make their Counter Attack Worthless easy.
>Don't Assualt Them
>Shoot at them.
Grey Hunters can even make their Counter Attack Worthless by Assualting First.

That doesn't stop them being
a) A hard counter to all assault armies
b) Amazing at 1 point more
c) Better at shooting than Tactical Marines

Also, why would you ever assault first against assaulting armies? There's literally no benefit when you could shoot your enemy for a turn, get the overwatch and then get the Counter-Attack, usually at higher initiative and wipe them out.
Against shooting armies you're still better in combat. My grouch is not even necessarily the fact that you have Counter-Attack, it's that you also have Acute Senses and Chainswords for 1 point more, and a free second weapon.

 Anpu42 wrote:
No I don;t want to start this again, but They are already Space Marines +1
Space Marines: Chapter Tactics [Your Choice], Combat Squads 14ppm
Grey Hunters: Chapter Tactics [Counter Attack], Add 1 CCW 15ppm

And you ignore all the other differences that you seem not to understand make an actual difference in combat ability...

We already know you play at a low level meta, your games should still be fine if they were were given an appropriate cost due to that.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 Anpu42 wrote:
No I don;t want to start this again, but They are already Space Marines +1
Space Marines: Chapter Tactics [Your Choice], Combat Squads 14ppm
Grey Hunters: Chapter Tactics [Counter Attack], Add 1 CCW 15ppm

And you ignore all the other differences that you seem not to understand make an actual difference in combat ability...

We already know you play at a low level meta, your games should still be fine if they were were given an appropriate cost due to that.

CCW is not equivalent to Combat Squads. People don't use Combat Squads...
Counter Attack is better than every Chapter Tactic in the SM book except White Scars.

 BrotherOfBone wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 Anpu42 wrote:
No I don;t want to start this again, but They are already Space Marines +1
Space Marines: Chapter Tactics [Your Choice], Combat Squads 14ppm
Grey Hunters: Chapter Tactics [Counter Attack], Add 1 CCW 15ppm

And you ignore all the other differences that you seem not to understand make an actual difference in combat ability...

We already know you play at a low level meta, your games should still be fine if they were were given an appropriate cost due to that.

CCW is not equivalent to Combat Squads. People don't use Combat Squads...
Counter Attack is better than every Chapter Tactic in the SM book except White Scars.

So by by that logic White Scars should cost more?

Combat squads is a pretty handy ability if you ask me. Losing it in exchange for Accute Senses which actually does nothing for almost every unit in the Wolves is worth factoring in to the equation.

I think 15 point Grey Hunters with their stats and rules as is are fine. It's the cheap Special Weapons that make them really hurt. If it cost 30 points to put two plasmaguns in the squad instead of the 10 it does now, a lot of the problem would be resolved.

As said by Jefffar, the special weapon cost change (up to current edition) will probably go a long way to fix some of the issue. That being said, I feel that if in addition the price was increased by a point, or counter-attack were removed, they might become a tad underwhelming. If they could do half points, they would be fine at 15.5 points, with the equipment changes.

But seriously, can we get away from the grey hunters for a moment? And the rune priests? And the "better" of the space wolf units?

Ogopogo wrote:
As said by Jefffar, the special weapon cost change (up to current edition) will probably go a long way to fix some of the issue. That being said, I feel that if in addition the price was increased by a point, or counter-attack were removed, they might become a tad underwhelming. If they could do half points, they would be fine at 15.5 points, with the equipment changes.

But seriously, can we get away from the grey hunters for a moment? And the rune priests? And the "better" of the space wolf units?

This is what we want from SW 6th Ed. SW to be brought down off their high horse to mid-tier along with all the other MEQs.

 BrotherOfBone wrote:

Ogopogo wrote:
As said by Jefffar, the special weapon cost change (up to current edition) will probably go a long way to fix some of the issue. That being said, I feel that if in addition the price was increased by a point, or counter-attack were removed, they might become a tad underwhelming. If they could do half points, they would be fine at 15.5 points, with the equipment changes.

But seriously, can we get away from the grey hunters for a moment? And the rune priests? And the "better" of the space wolf units?

This is what we want from SW 6th Ed. SW to be brought down off their high horse to mid-tier along with all the other MEQs.

Ok, I use army builder and forgot about the send free weapon part...
I would have no issue with paying for the Special Weapons.

CCWs for Chaos Space Marines cost 2 points, so even with just the CCW you're getting up to about 16pts (-1 point for the chapter tactic if we're comparing to Tactical marines). GH should be about 19pts if we call it 3pts for Counter-Assault and 2pts for the CCW.

 BrotherOfBone wrote:
CCWs for Chaos Space Marines cost 2 points, so even with just the CCW you're getting up to about 16pts (-1 point for the chapter tactic if we're comparing to Tactical marines). GH should be about 19pts if we call it 3pts for Counter-Assault and 2pts for the CCW.

Then what do we get for our Chapter Tactics, Loss of Combat Squads and the Sarg; the usless Acute Senses?

 Anpu42 wrote:

 BrotherOfBone wrote:
CCWs for Chaos Space Marines cost 2 points, so even with just the CCW you're getting up to about 16pts (-1 point for the chapter tactic if we're comparing to Tactical marines). GH should be about 19pts if we call it 3pts for Counter-Assault and 2pts for the CCW.

Then what do we get for our Chapter Tactics, Loss of Combat Squads and the Sarg; the usless Acute Senses?

The Sarg doesn't mean anything, we have to pay 10pts for our Sarg. Acute Senses is still a special rule, but because it's useless I'm leaving it out. It's a pro not a con. And, your Chapter Tactic is Counter-Assault. Chaos Space Marines are a basic marine, no combat squads, no ATSKNF and they cost 14ppm. +2pts for a CCW and +3 for Counter-Assault makes 19. You also have Acute senses and only pay 8ppm for a Sarg.

SM get a character in the unit, SW don't. A character brings Precision Shooting, Precision Hits and the ability to participate in challenges.

I feel that any ability that has a chance of failure (LD 8 on most SW units) is no way worth 3 points PPM.

But as with all things in this thread, this particular dead horse is now nothing but smashed bones at this point.

Its sad that people cant just agree to disagree on GH subject and talk about all the other things that could be changed.

Ok I have a new Thread for the Grey Hunter Hate, lets take that here.
Here: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/584311.page

 BrotherOfBone wrote:
CCWs for Chaos Space Marines cost 2 points, so even with just the CCW you're getting up to about 16pts (-1 point for the chapter tactic if we're comparing to Tactical marines). GH should be about 19pts if we call it 3pts for Counter-Assault and 2pts for the CCW.

So you want to make them cost the same as wolf guard? Right.....






One little neat upgrade for the long fangs would be for each long fang squad, one razorback may be upgraded to a long fang's personal transport. While the razorback is within 6" of the designated long fang unit, the long fang unit would gain a minor buff too it's shooting or survivability (see space wolves razorback entry for fluff).

Ogopogo wrote:

 BrotherOfBone wrote:
CCWs for Chaos Space Marines cost 2 points, so even with just the CCW you're getting up to about 16pts (-1 point for the chapter tactic if we're comparing to Tactical marines). GH should be about 19pts if we call it 3pts for Counter-Assault and 2pts for the CCW.

So you want to make them cost the same as wolf guard? Right.....






One little neat upgrade for the long fangs would be for each long fang squad, one razorback may be upgraded to a long fang's personal transport. While the razorback is within 6" of the designated long fang unit, the long fang unit would gain a minor buff too it's shooting or survivability (see space wolves razorback entry for fluff).

Long Fangs also should not have Couter Attack. As the 3rd Ed Codex put it "They are to Old to be bothered with such things.

 Anpu42 wrote:

Ogopogo wrote:

 BrotherOfBone wrote:
CCWs for Chaos Space Marines cost 2 points, so even with just the CCW you're getting up to about 16pts (-1 point for the chapter tactic if we're comparing to Tactical marines). GH should be about 19pts if we call it 3pts for Counter-Assault and 2pts for the CCW.

So you want to make them cost the same as wolf guard? Right.....

One little neat upgrade for the long fangs would be for each long fang squad, one razorback may be upgraded to a long fang's personal transport. While the razorback is within 6" of the designated long fang unit, the long fang unit would gain a minor buff too it's shooting or survivability (see space wolves razorback entry for fluff).

Long Fangs also should not have Couter Attack. As the 3rd Ed Codex put it "They are to Old to be bothered with such things.

On the note of counter attack, if it was to be kept, I would be tempted to say that it should be universal rule for all space wolves infantry (not in each profile). However, if overwatch shots are taken, the effects of counterattack are lost for the purpose of determining close combat attacks. Then, the counter attack special rule (without this clause) can be given to a few of the more elite units such as HQ choices, thunderwolf calvary, and the wolf guard.

Well to be honest about Counter Attack:
If we lost it I will not cry “The Sky Is Falling” Because it was a Rule Change.
I defend it now, because we have it and I see nothing wrong with it or game breaking.

I also don’t see the need for a “Special Ruling for a USR for one Unit”

MOVING AWAY FROM GREY HUNTER RANT:

I'd like for them to dump the whole "Feet on ground like Russ intended" fluff. That bit of fluff is so full of gak it's not even funny. Completely self-contradictory too. Every Space Wolf that's ever made it off of Fenris has gone against that bit of stupid philosophy.