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The RAW are filled with lots of examples of nonsensical rules calls that no one actually attempts to use. Wraithguard not being able to shoot is a great one.

The OP asked, specifically, for what we think the RAW state. It's unambiguous, in my opinion, that the RAW give you the re-roll. I also think it's unambiguous that it was never intended to be that way, and so I'll never play it like that.

So then what would be the point of making a thread with a poll asking if wraithguard can shoot? That's what i'm getting at. If this poll has a flaw in the wording, then it's a flawed poll. If you're saying that "Based on the poll wording i MUST vote this way. However, if the wording was different, then i would vote another because i do not agree with it." then this poll as no reason to exist, since we are literally asking if something in a book exists.

AnonAmbientLight wrote:
So then what would be the point of making a thread with a poll asking if wraithguard can shoot? That's what i'm getting at. If this poll has a flaw in the wording, then it's a flawed poll. If you're saying that "Based on the poll wording i MUST vote this way. However, if the wording was different, then i would vote another because i do not agree with it." then this poll as no reason to exist, since we are literally asking if something in a book exists.

But it's not a flawed poll. In the thread which spawned this one, several people claimed that the RAW does NOT allow the re-roll. If everyone was saying 'oh, this is what the rules actually SAY, but we know what they really MEAN," (like with the Wraithguard) then you're right, there wouldn't be a need for this poll. But as the closeness in votes indicates, clearly this isn't the case. People do NOT agree on what the rules as written state. So the original poster is trying to find out how many people feel which way, and that's perfectly acceptable.

 Jimsolo wrote:

AnonAmbientLight wrote:
So then what would be the point of making a thread with a poll asking if wraithguard can shoot? That's what i'm getting at. If this poll has a flaw in the wording, then it's a flawed poll. If you're saying that "Based on the poll wording i MUST vote this way. However, if the wording was different, then i would vote another because i do not agree with it." then this poll as no reason to exist, since we are literally asking if something in a book exists.

But it's not a flawed poll. In the thread which spawned this one, several people claimed that the RAW does NOT allow the re-roll. If everyone was saying 'oh, this is what the rules actually SAY, but we know what they really MEAN," (like with the Wraithguard) then you're right, there wouldn't be a need for this poll. But as the closeness in votes indicates, clearly this isn't the case. People do NOT agree on what the rules as written state. So the original poster is trying to find out how many people feel which way, and that's perfectly acceptable.

If this was a clear cut RAW "does this exist in the book?" question, it would be unanimous like the wraithguard example. The fact that we have a close poll points to the fact that people do not feel that RAW this is how it is. There are people suggesting there is RAI argument to be made.

You said so yourself that you feel RaI you don't play it that way, yet since the question specifically asked RaW, you're forced to agree that it exists in the book. Which is why i suggest it's a flawed poll, and questioned why you voted one way, but felt differently. Unless i interpreted it wrong.

The reason i have a problem with this poll, and indeed this whole discussion specifically, is that people are suggesting that it's RaW and it must be followed. We have examples of that not always being the case, so it makes room for an interpretation, or RaI. When that is brought up, the argument then turns to, special rules trump general rules, and again, that's not always the case. One such example is the Ignores Cover rule.

We can look at the Ignores Cover rule, read it and see that it's mentioning specifically wounds on models. That's not even debatable, it's RaW. The conflict comes when you point out that vehicles do not take wounds, so RaW, Ignores Cover doesn't effect vehicles. Yet, we know that logically, a cover save ignored on a tiny guardsman would also be transferable to a huge tank sitting next to him, or RaI. So for the blast re-roll, we can not just say "it's RaW", nor can we say, "special rules trump general rules always" and leave it at that because neither is always true. This topic forces us to make a RaI position, because it's not entirely clear how it should work.

That's why i question the purpose of this poll. If it is not asking how a rule functions, then what is the purpose of asking if it exists?

You do know that people can have nuanced views on things? Communism great in theory, horrible in execution.
Wraithknights can't shoot RAW, can RAI.
salt good in small amounts, bad in large etc etc.

Words due to the limitation of human communication are subjective in their reading, do we agree on the meaning of the words before us is the point of the pole. It's like when judges rule on constitutionality in the British Isles, they look at the laws and derive a legal answer. In this case we're looking at the interaction of a range of rules and deciding is a re-roll of 1 a re-roll for the purposes of scatter dice. Like the law, there is the spirit of the rules and the word of the rules (RAI and RAW) both exist but we're only concerned in the poll about RAW. Expression of one doesn't preclude a different answer for the other.

AnonAmbientLight wrote:
So then what would be the point of making a thread with a poll asking if wraithguard can shoot? That's what i'm getting at. If this poll has a flaw in the wording, then it's a flawed poll. If you're saying that "Based on the poll wording i MUST vote this way. However, if the wording was different, then i would vote another because i do not agree with it." then this poll as no reason to exist, since we are literally asking if something in a book exists.

I made the poll so i can tell you the point: the link in the OP is the issue being discussed.

The exact wording in the book clearly states the answer is No here (for me anyway). However, Yes got 50% of Votes. This means that those many people are actually reading the book differently, or reading the same but somehow reaching a different solution. It's not as direct as "can a wraithlord see", so people are split between what is the answer to the question by how they read it.

If i'd made the same Poll with RaI, the No would probably be 99%, but we are not discussing RaI in that thread, but RaW, because that's where the issue is.

The exact wording gives "yes" , as pointed out the RAW is clear

I'm not saying that this is how it is, but my friend and I have played it so that the riptide with it can re-roll the gets hot dice when using the blast because that is how we assume it was meant to be.

Edit why is there even a debate on this? What I get for listening to other people.

Wagguy80 wrote:
There is no "to-hit" roll made so Twin-linked rule does not apply. It simply overheats.

So what you're saying is that you have no idea what the rules actually say and just wanted to post?
Because that's not even close to what the rules say.

It clearly says it can re-roll the gets hot roll on a blast weapon. Don't see why there is even this debate.

Wagguy80 wrote:
That's the twin linked rules and for blast weapons it is based on the scatter dice.

The gets hot rule says if you roll a 1 "blah blah blah....and that shot is not fired."

So what part of "Twin-linked" covers a model not even firing a shot?

Page 37, middle column, second paragraph - "Gets Hot and Re-rolls".
The last half of the last sentence should be of interest to you.

What I get for posting on a sick day. I totally missed the issue here and I apologize. Me and a buddy had a game recently where he over-heated his TL plasma cannon and said TL didn't let him re-roll the get's hot roll.

So that was what popped in my head as I skimmed through.
Since he's usually 100% spot on and I don't personally have anything with TL plasma I assumed he was correct.

However to be on topic now that I have taken the time to go back and read through my head cold here.

The rule in question only allows you to re-roll any die result of 1. That does not give permission to re-roll all the scatter dice if either come up a 1. You could only re-roll the die that came up a 1.

Which would only make sense if you really wanted to miss what you were shooting at.

Wagguy80 wrote:
The rule in question only allows you to re-roll any die result of 1. That does not give permission to re-roll all the scatter dice if either come up a 1. You could only re-roll the die that came up a 1.

Again, not an actual rule. You've clearly not read the rules in question and are assuming you know what they say.

The rule in question allows you to re-roll To-Hit rolls of 1. Blast weapons never roll To Hit. Blast weapons allow a re-roll of the scatter dice if the firer has the ability to re-roll To Hit (all of them, not just some).

Sorry if this counts as necroing this thread but one point in regards to this I wanted to ask was that if you are permitted to reroll 1s but are firing a blast weapon would you be allowed to reroll the die when checking for Gets Hot (eg when firing a plasma cannon or when a Riptide overcharges) if it comes up as a 1?

 CrashCanuck wrote:
Sorry if this counts as necroing this thread but one point in regards to this I wanted to ask was that if you are permitted to reroll 1s but are firing a blast weapon would you be allowed to reroll the die when checking for Gets Hot (eg when firing a plasma cannon or when a Riptide overcharges) if it comes up as a 1?

BS6 being one of the possible reason you'd be able to re-roll Gets hot! tests , I'd say yes

 B0B MaRlEy wrote:

 CrashCanuck wrote:
Sorry if this counts as necroing this thread but one point in regards to this I wanted to ask was that if you are permitted to reroll 1s but are firing a blast weapon would you be allowed to reroll the die when checking for Gets Hot (eg when firing a plasma cannon or when a Riptide overcharges) if it comes up as a 1?

BS6 being one of the possible reason you'd be able to re-roll Gets hot! tests , I'd say yes

That's how my friends and I play it (to my lasting regret ).

I do think it is funny that people are asking if the rule regarding blast weapons getting to re-roll the scatter dice based on if a model has an ability to re-roll dice when it does in fact have that ability in the form of re-rolling results of 1's as they know and yet are saying that because it is conditional re-roll that it would not get to.

(hint, this is an ability to re-roll dice, the only condition stipulated for the scatter re-roll)

for the record ALL re-rolls are conditional on the premise that they miss, you cannot re-roll a success (as far as I can recall anyway) therefore a model either has the capacity for a re-roll or it does not.

Not entirely true - fortune, from memory, used to let you reroll successes, which was situationally useful (more chance of harlies rending, from memory - 4th ed when it was on the to-hit)

And i do not believe you can blanket statement "rerolls". If the weapon has to miss, it has to miss, and you then get a re-roll. Twin Linked is quite clear on how the "Miss part" works for Blast/L.Blast.
If the weapon has to roll 1s, it has to roll a 1, which cannot be done on 2D6+scatter. No rerolls.

But the poll has made its point:
Pretty much exactly 50/50, so until RaW are re-Written, i'm just as wrong as anyone

 BlackTalos wrote:
If the weapon has to roll 1s, it has to roll a 1, which cannot be done on 2D6+scatter. No rerolls.

Then Twin Linked is the only ability ever to be able to re-roll.

Why? Because literally every other ability requries a roll to hit which Blast weapons never make. Ever.
Your argument renders dozens of rules useless and this has been proven before. Please stop asserting it like it's relevant.

 BlackTalos wrote:
And i do not believe you can blanket statement "rerolls". If the weapon has to miss, it has to miss, and you then get a re-roll. Twin Linked is quite clear on how the "Miss part" works for Blast/L.Blast.
If the weapon has to roll 1s, it has to roll a 1, which cannot be done on 2D6+scatter. No rerolls.

Except, as proven, the rules for rerolling blasts do not require you to reoll your to hit IWHEN ROLLING BLAST SCATTER, just that IF you were rolling to hit, you could reroll it

Please stop asserting falsehoods

rigeld2 wrote:

 BlackTalos wrote:
If the weapon has to roll 1s, it has to roll a 1, which cannot be done on 2D6+scatter. No rerolls.

Then Twin Linked is the only ability ever to be able to re-roll.

Why? Because literally every other ability requries a roll to hit which Blast weapons never make. Ever.
Your argument renders dozens of rules useless and this has been proven before. Please stop asserting it like it's relevant.

Twin-link describes how you Miss on a blast without a roll to hit. Done
Please stop asserting your opinion as truth.

 BlackTalos wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 BlackTalos wrote:
If the weapon has to roll 1s, it has to roll a 1, which cannot be done on 2D6+scatter. No rerolls.

Then Twin Linked is the only ability ever to be able to re-roll.

Why? Because literally every other ability requries a roll to hit which Blast weapons never make. Ever.
Your argument renders dozens of rules useless and this has been proven before. Please stop asserting it like it's relevant.

Twin-link describes how you Miss on a blast without a roll to hit. Done
Please stop asserting your opinion as truth.

For Twin Linked. It does not apply to any other ability. I bolded where I agreed TL would would still. It's not an opinion - it's fact.

and this does not change the Fact that unless you roll a 1, you don't get to reroll.

 BlackTalos wrote:
and this does not change the Fact that unless you roll a 1, you don't get to reroll.

So no rules based argument then?
Or are you asserting that TL is the only ability that gets to re-roll?

 BlackTalos wrote:
and this does not change the Fact that unless you roll a 1, you don't get to reroll.

That isnt a fact, but a made up rule with no basis in the written rules

If you can reroll 1s to hit, you can reroll blast as you have the ability to reroll your to-hit dice. It does not require you to have already rolled that 1 to hit, which is of course impossible when rolling blasts.

But you know this, of course.

rigeld2 wrote:

 BlackTalos wrote:
and this does not change the Fact that unless you roll a 1, you don't get to reroll.

So no rules based argument then?
Or are you asserting that TL is the only ability that gets to re-roll?

Let's use Preferred enemy for you:
"A unit that contains at least one model with this special rule re-rolls failed To Hit and To Wound rolls of 1 if attacking its Preferred Enemy."

Based on Raw and still a fact:
Roll a 1 to-Hit or to-Wound and you can reroll, not before.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
If you can reroll 1s to hit, you can reroll blast as you have the ability to reroll your to-hit dice. It does not require you to have already rolled that 1 to hit, which is of course impossible when rolling blasts.

But you know this, of course.

I know that is your assumption, yes, and the one done by 50% of people voting *Yes*

 BlackTalos wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 BlackTalos wrote:
and this does not change the Fact that unless you roll a 1, you don't get to reroll.

So no rules based argument then?
Or are you asserting that TL is the only ability that gets to re-roll?

Let's use Preferred enemy for you:
"A unit that contains at least one model with this special rule re-rolls failed To Hit and To Wound rolls of 1 if attacking its Preferred Enemy."

Based on Raw and still a fact:
Roll a 1 to-Hit or to-Wound and you can reroll, not before.

Yes or no: Are there abilities that you would agree can re-roll Blast scatter other than Twin Linked?
If so, please cite one.

Your answer is extremely relevant.

rigeld2 wrote:
Yes or no: Are there abilities that you would agree can re-roll Blast scatter other than Twin Linked?
If so, please cite one.

Yes: Prescience.