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yea...your only issue is that the rule doesn't care about that.

it only cares that you CAN re-roll your to hit dice.

it doesn't actually care that your not going to roll a to hit dice.

sirlynchmob wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:

chanceafs wrote:
How about you read the page you mentioned. Blast & Large Blast: Second paragraph, first sentence "When firing a Blast weapon, models do not roll To Hit."

You highlighted the exact correct part. In order to get that re-roll you have to roll a 1 To Hit, since no 'To Hit' roll was made, you didn't "roll 1 To Hit", therefor no re-roll was granted. Since no re-roll was granted the entry under blast weapons and re-rolls never enters into the equation. QED

And by that logic, everything barring Twin-linked does not give blast weapons a re-roll. For example, Prescience allows you to re-roll failed To Hit rolls. In order to get that re-roll you have to fail a roll To Hit, since no 'To Hit' roll was made, you didn't "fail a To Hit roll", therefor no re-roll was granted. Since no re-roll was granted the entry under blast weapons and re-rolls never enters into the equation. QED

I totally agree with this line of logic. It also solves the runt dilema. If you don't meet the initial criteria for a reroll, you do not have the ability to reroll.

runt, you already rerolled once this game you no longer have the ability to reroll.
if you don't roll a 1 to hit, you don't have the ability to reroll.

so yes only TL grants rerolls to blasts, I like it, nice and simple

Except that means they typed out the whole "Blasts and Re-Rolls" section for no reason other than to fill up space. Because Twin-Linked re-rolling blasts is already covered in its own rules.

I look at the ammo runt argument the same as the preferred enemy argument.
Does just having an ammo runt grant you a re-roll? No, you have to sacrifice the ammo runt to get the re-roll.
is the same as:
Does Preferred Enemy by itself grant you a re-roll? No, you must be shooting at your preferred enemy.

Steel-WOLF, I agree, and that is how I play it. However, for some reason, people are OK with "Re-roll failed To Hit" but not with "Re-roll To Hit rolls of 1". Despite the fact that neither requirement can be met when using blast weapons.

 Happyjew wrote:
Steel-WOLF, I agree, and that is how I play it. However, for some reason, people are OK with "Re-roll failed To Hit" but not with "Re-roll To Hit rolls of 1". Despite the fact that neither requirement can be met when using blast weapons.

Yeah I don't get it either. Its pretty straightforward.

because the rule of blasts and re-rolls doesn't care about what you need to have the re-roll, only that you could possibly re-roll your to hit dice.

if you can re-roll all failed to hit dice, you have the ability to re-roll

if you can only re-roll results of a 5, you still have the ability to re-roll.

the re-rolls and blast wepaons rule doesn't care about the conditional, only that you COULD re-roll any to hit dice.

as for prefered enemy, you don't have the ability to re-roll if you are not shooting the enemy to which you have preference.

 Happyjew wrote:
Steel-WOLF, I agree, and that is how I play it. However, for some reason, people are OK with "Re-roll failed To Hit" but not with "Re-roll To Hit rolls of 1". Despite the fact that neither requirement can be met when using blast weapons.

Indeed, this discrepancy - which is entirley ignored by the proponents of that position - is what is most puzzling.

Somehow they come up with a standard of "how good" your reroll to hit has to be for it to be allowed to reroll blast scatter, despite no such standard even being hinted at anywhere in the rules, ever. When presented evidence that the rules simply dont care "how good" your rerolls are, it is just ignored / hand waved away.

nosferatu1001 wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:
Steel-WOLF, I agree, and that is how I play it. However, for some reason, people are OK with "Re-roll failed To Hit" but not with "Re-roll To Hit rolls of 1". Despite the fact that neither requirement can be met when using blast weapons.

Indeed, this discrepancy - which is entirley ignored by the proponents of that position - is what is most puzzling.

Somehow they come up with a standard of "how good" your reroll to hit has to be for it to be allowed to reroll blast scatter, despite no such standard even being hinted at anywhere in the rules, ever. When presented evidence that the rules simply dont care "how good" your rerolls are, it is just ignored / hand waved away.

I like to ask about a BS 5 model with preferred enemy when they bring that up. The model only misses on a 1, but can re-roll 1's. So they can then re-roll all misses.......

Except any he has already re-rolled, and only if he actually rolled a one.

The problem with preferred enemy and blast weapons is that you are only allowed to re roll the scatter dice if you would be entitled to a re-roll if you made a to hit roll. In order for preferred enemy to entitle you to a re-roll you actually have to roll and get a one, with out that one you are not entitled to a re-roll. RAW you never going to be able to re-roll your scatter dice because of preferred enemy. HIWPI, roll a d6 allong with the scatter dice when firing a blast weapon at a preferred enemy, like you would for Gets Hot!. If that roll comes up a one then you may re-roll your scatter dice.

 DJGietzen wrote:
Except any he has already re-rolled, and only if he actually rolled a one.

The problem with preferred enemy and blast weapons is that you are only allowed to re roll the scatter dice if you would be entitled to a re-roll if you made a to hit roll. In order for preferred enemy to entitle you to a re-roll you actually have to roll and get a one, with out that one you are not entitled to a re-roll. RAW you never going to be able to re-roll your scatter dice because of preferred enemy. HIWPI, roll a d6 allong with the scatter dice when firing a blast weapon at a preferred enemy, like you would for Gets Hot!. If that roll comes up a one then you may re-roll your scatter dice.

So you're of the opinion that Twin Linked is literally the only ability that can reroll scatter?

rigeld2 wrote:

 DJGietzen wrote:
Except any he has already re-rolled, and only if he actually rolled a one.

The problem with preferred enemy and blast weapons is that you are only allowed to re roll the scatter dice if you would be entitled to a re-roll if you made a to hit roll. In order for preferred enemy to entitle you to a re-roll you actually have to roll and get a one, with out that one you are not entitled to a re-roll. RAW you never going to be able to re-roll your scatter dice because of preferred enemy. HIWPI, roll a d6 allong with the scatter dice when firing a blast weapon at a preferred enemy, like you would for Gets Hot!. If that roll comes up a one then you may re-roll your scatter dice.

So you're of the opinion that Twin Linked is literally the only ability that can reroll scatter?

I am, It makes a lot more sense than you get to reroll everything. Like ammo runts rerolling all game long, using preferred enemy against all other armies.

RAW you don't roll to hit, so anything that triggers off a roll to hit does not happen for blasts.

No, anything that entitles you to a re roll your to hit rolls with out conditions (like twin linked) or anything where those conditions can be satisfied would allow you to re-roll the scatter dice. From the BRB that means

Twin-Linked

Master Crafted

Prescience

Precognition

 DJGietzen wrote:
No, anything that entitles you to a re roll your to hit rolls with out conditions (like twin linked) or anything where those conditions can be satisfied would allow you to re-roll the scatter dice. From the BRB that means

Twin-Linked

Master Crafted

Prescience

Precognition

Master-crafted, Prescience, and Precognition all require a failed To Hit roll. Therefore they have conditions, and by your own volition do not work.

 DJGietzen wrote:
No, anything that entitles you to a re roll your to hit rolls with out conditions (like twin linked) or anything where those conditions can be satisfied would allow you to re-roll the scatter dice. From the BRB that means

Twin-Linked

Master Crafted

Prescience

Precognition

The conditions on those can never be filled either, as you can not roll a miss on your to hit roll because you never roll to hit.

Hence you are arguing nothing re rolls scatter except twin liked and the blast re roll section is just space filler.

 DJGietzen wrote:
No, anything that entitles you to a re roll your to hit rolls with out conditions (like twin linked) or anything where those conditions can be satisfied would allow you to re-roll the scatter dice. From the BRB that means

Twin-Linked

Master Crafted

Prescience

Precognition

Twin Linked has its own rules to cover this situation.
The other abilities require a failed To Hit roll - something that can never happen with blasts.
Since you've said PE can't roll a 1, there's no difference between that and failing to hit.

Why are you treating the abilities differently - allowing some conditionals to reroll but not others?

 DJGietzen wrote:
No, anything that entitles you to a re roll your to hit rolls with out conditions (like twin linked) or anything where those conditions can be satisfied would allow you to re-roll the scatter dice. From the BRB that means

Twin-Linked

Master Crafted

Prescience

Precognition

Again, you dont seem to fololow what you are saying

Everything bar twinlinked requires a failed to-hit roll. It has a condition. Reroll rolls of 1 to hit is also a condition.

Be consistent - pick either your position (no condition on the to-hit) meaning ONLY twinlinked works, and means they wasted a bit of ink writing a rule with no application, or pick the one supported by the rules.

The written rules require no condition on "how good" a reroll, jus tthat you HAVE the ability to reroll, were you rolling to hit. Do you have the ability to reroll your to-hit dice with BS6+? Yes. Answering "no" is impossible.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

nosferatu1001 wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:
Steel-WOLF, I agree, and that is how I play it. However, for some reason, people are OK with "Re-roll failed To Hit" but not with "Re-roll To Hit rolls of 1". Despite the fact that neither requirement can be met when using blast weapons.

Indeed, this discrepancy - which is entirley ignored by the proponents of that position - is what is most puzzling.

Somehow they come up with a standard of "how good" your reroll to hit has to be for it to be allowed to reroll blast scatter, despite no such standard even being hinted at anywhere in the rules, ever. When presented evidence that the rules simply dont care "how good" your rerolls are, it is just ignored / hand waved away.

Oh, and just to show prescience () on this - another attempt to handwave away that the rules do not place ANY conditional on "how good" your reroll is, jus that you have that ability.

Just bought the Iyanden Supplement and found this interesting little bit well flicking through it.

Iyanden: A Codex:Eldar Supplement ; pg 49 ; Hemloc Wraithfighter ; second paragraph wrote:Just remember that, as the Hemloc gains no benefit from a
Spirit Mark (it doesn't roll to hit in a conventional manner)
you don't have to worry about keeping a spiritseer near to
the enemy you want to obliterate.

Codex Eldar; pg 29 ; Spirit Mark ; second sentence wrote:All wraithguards, Wraithblades, Wraithknights,
and Hemloc Wraithfighters can re-roll To Hit rolls of 1
against spirit marked units.

Hemloc comes with 2 Heavy D-scythes ( i.e. Heavy 1, Blast weapons)

Already been found and discussed. "Fluff" or designers notes such as that are less than reliable.

When you have a rules system whetre the summary can be wrong trusting explicit non-rules (tactics, fluff, etc) to overturn a BRB rule? Nope.

sirlynchmob wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 DJGietzen wrote:
Except any he has already re-rolled, and only if he actually rolled a one.

The problem with preferred enemy and blast weapons is that you are only allowed to re roll the scatter dice if you would be entitled to a re-roll if you made a to hit roll. In order for preferred enemy to entitle you to a re-roll you actually have to roll and get a one, with out that one you are not entitled to a re-roll. RAW you never going to be able to re-roll your scatter dice because of preferred enemy. HIWPI, roll a d6 allong with the scatter dice when firing a blast weapon at a preferred enemy, like you would for Gets Hot!. If that roll comes up a one then you may re-roll your scatter dice.

So you're of the opinion that Twin Linked is literally the only ability that can reroll scatter?

I am, It makes a lot more sense than you get to reroll everything. Like ammo runts rerolling all game long, using preferred enemy against all other armies.

RAW you don't roll to hit, so anything that triggers off a roll to hit does not happen for blasts.

Also my position: Only TL, in RaW, will allow re-roll of the Blast Dice.


Now if we were to apply the "If you fail to roll a HIT" from the TL rule to the list:

 DJGietzen wrote:

Master Crafted

Prescience

Precognition

I wonder how the part "Fail To Hit" and "Deos not roll a HIT" interact... But then that would be thinking rolling 3 dice "To Hit" as part of scatter is not actually a roll to hit at all and then page 33 pops up...

 BlackTalos wrote:
Also my position: Only TL, in RaW, will allow re-roll of the Blast Dice.

So you've changed your position then - thanks for clarifying.

Now if we were to apply the "If you fail to roll a HIT" from the TL rule to the list:

 DJGietzen wrote:

Master Crafted

Prescience

Precognition

I wonder how the part "Fail To Hit" and "Deos not roll a HIT" interact... But then that would be thinking rolling 3 dice "To Hit" as part of scatter is not actually a roll to hit at all and then page 33 pops up...

Sure, if you change rules because you feel like it all kinds of things can happen.
But failing to roll a Hit is not the same thing as failing a To Hit roll - doubly so because Blasts never roll To Hit.

rigeld2 wrote:

 BlackTalos wrote:
Also my position: Only TL, in RaW, will allow re-roll of the Blast Dice.

So you've changed your position then - thanks for clarifying.

This never changed... I've always said conditional for 1s do not allow rerolls of blast.
I then interpreted it worked for the list below, in the way described below. But you were quite keen on disproving that in Raw, so the result would be your answer...

rigeld2 wrote:

Now if we were to apply the "If you fail to roll a HIT" from the TL rule to the list:

 DJGietzen wrote:

Master Crafted

Prescience

Precognition

I wonder how the part "Fail To Hit" and "Deos not roll a HIT" interact... But then that would be thinking rolling 3 dice "To Hit" as part of scatter is not actually a roll to hit at all and then page 33 pops up...

Sure, if you change rules because you feel like it all kinds of things can happen.
But failing to roll a Hit is not the same thing as failing a To Hit roll - doubly so because Blasts never roll To Hit.

So when you roll a scatter and 2D6, it is a?
Roll to miss?

I agrees it is not a To Hit roll (which is clearly defined as 1 Dice), but is it still a roll to Hit with your blast weapon...

 BlackTalos wrote:
So when you roll a scatter and 2D6, it is a?
Roll to miss?

It is a roll to determine scatter.

I agrees it is not a To Hit roll (which is clearly defined as 1 Dice), but is it still a roll to Hit with your blast weapon...

Yes you are rolling to see if you hit. The problem, is that everything (barring Twin-linked, of course) that allows you to re-roll, requires you to fail a To Hit roll.

 BlackTalos wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 BlackTalos wrote:
Also my position: Only TL, in RaW, will allow re-roll of the Blast Dice.

So you've changed your position then - thanks for clarifying.

This never changed... I've always said conditional for 1s do not allow rerolls of blast.
I then interpreted it worked for the list below, in the way described below. But you were quite keen on disproving that in Raw, so the result would be your answer...

You were asserting - repeatedly, and mocking any attempts to dissuade you - that Prescience was allowed allowed a reroll. This was in a RAW discussion, not a HYWPI discussion.
So you've changed your RAW viewpoint.

rigeld2 wrote:

Now if we were to apply the "If you fail to roll a HIT" from the TL rule to the list:

 DJGietzen wrote:

Master Crafted

Prescience

Precognition

I wonder how the part "Fail To Hit" and "Deos not roll a HIT" interact... But then that would be thinking rolling 3 dice "To Hit" as part of scatter is not actually a roll to hit at all and then page 33 pops up...

Sure, if you change rules because you feel like it all kinds of things can happen.
But failing to roll a Hit is not the same thing as failing a To Hit roll - doubly so because Blasts never roll To Hit.

So when you roll a scatter and 2D6, it is a?
Roll to miss?

Roll to scatter.

I agrees it is not a To Hit roll (which is clearly defined as 1 Dice), but is it still a roll to Hit with your blast weapon...

No, it is not. Blast weapons never roll to hit - they roll to scatter.

 Happyjew wrote:

 BlackTalos wrote:
So when you roll a scatter and 2D6, it is a?
Roll to miss?

It is a roll to determine scatter.

I agrees it is not a To Hit roll (which is clearly defined as 1 Dice), but is it still a roll to Hit with your blast weapon...

Yes you are rolling to see if you hit. The problem, is that everything (barring Twin-linked, of course) that allows you to re-roll, requires you to fail a To Hit roll.

Oh i do agree:

 BlackTalos wrote:
Also my position: Only TL, in RaW, will allow re-roll of the Blast Dice.

For the sake of the "page 33 & re-rolls paragraph" then being redundant, that was RAI to get models "with unconditional re-rolls" to re-roll blasts, unfortunately even the most unconditional one were conditional and that paragraph no longer applies, in RaW.
Unless you apply the TL statement of "not Rolling HIT" universally to mean "fail To Hit", as it is a roll of dice to see if you hit.

 BlackTalos wrote:


For the sake of the "page 33 & re-rolls paragraph" then being redundant, that was RAI to get models "with unconditional re-rolls" to re-roll blasts, unfortunately even the most unconditional one were conditional and that paragraph no longer applies, in RaW.
Unless you apply the TL statement of "not Rolling HIT" universally to mean "fail To Hit", as it is a roll of dice to see if you hit.

right so just so I am clear, in your mind, they would write in a rule that has no effect on the game at all? and you feel the need to justify that rule's existance?

or

could it be that your hypothasis on this rule is incorrect and the other side (who's arguement doesn't require any adaptation of a rule, or have a need to make the rule work since, well it does) could be correct and you are wrong?

 nutty_nutter wrote:

 BlackTalos wrote:


For the sake of the "page 33 & re-rolls paragraph" then being redundant, that was RAI to get models "with unconditional re-rolls" to re-roll blasts, unfortunately even the most unconditional one were conditional and that paragraph no longer applies, in RaW.
Unless you apply the TL statement of "not Rolling HIT" universally to mean "fail To Hit", as it is a roll of dice to see if you hit.

right so just so I am clear, in your mind, they would write in a rule that has no effect on the game at all? and you feel the need to justify that rule's existance?

or

could it be that your hypothasis on this rule is incorrect and the other side (who's arguement doesn't require any adaptation of a rule, or have a need to make the rule work since, well it does) could be correct and you are wrong?

Nahhhh!

Haven't you heard that old saying?: "The most complex, convoluted answer is usually correct."


Errr wait that's not how it goes......

 Steel-W0LF wrote:
Haven't you heard that old saying?: "The most complex, convoluted answer is usually correct."

Isn't that Rozar S'Macco?

 BlackTalos wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:

 BlackTalos wrote:
So when you roll a scatter and 2D6, it is a?
Roll to miss?

It is a roll to determine scatter.

I agrees it is not a To Hit roll (which is clearly defined as 1 Dice), but is it still a roll to Hit with your blast weapon...

Yes you are rolling to see if you hit. The problem, is that everything (barring Twin-linked, of course) that allows you to re-roll, requires you to fail a To Hit roll.

Oh i do agree:

 BlackTalos wrote:
Also my position: Only TL, in RaW, will allow re-roll of the Blast Dice.

For the sake of the "page 33 & re-rolls paragraph" then being redundant, that was RAI to get models "with unconditional re-rolls" to re-roll blasts, unfortunately even the most unconditional one were conditional and that paragraph no longer applies, in RaW.
Unless you apply the TL statement of "not Rolling HIT" universally to mean "fail To Hit", as it is a roll of dice to see if you hit.

except, and this is the part you keep handwaving away: the rule does not require you to be rolling to-hit, just to have the ability to reroll to-hit, were you rolling to hit. And a model which rerolls failed to-hit rolls of a 1 DOES HAVE, without a doubt, the ability to reroll their to-hit rolls

 nutty_nutter wrote:

right so just so I am clear, in your mind, they would write in a rule that has no effect on the game at all? and you feel the need to justify that rule's existance?

or

could it be that your hypothasis on this rule is incorrect and the other side (who's arguement doesn't require any adaptation of a rule, or have a need to make the rule work since, well it does) could be correct and you are wrong?

Obviously a rule with no effect would never be written... but one that was supposed to work but doesn't, that sounds familiar... So yes i feel the need to justify, even if it's a lost cause.

Or

the *hypothesis* (when discussing rules where words count for a lot, please be careful) of the other side leads to other issues, mainly allowing a lot more re-rolls than is intended.
The letters T F G then come to mind about then playing, say, a Riptide with Earth Cast Array (original issue that brought up the poll). And fielding army centred on using such an advantage.
/\
This has no effect on the argument. I understand your position fully, but cannot agree that the words:
"ability to re-roll its rolls To Hit" == "re-rolls failed To Hit (...) rolls of 1"
That you insist is right.

Your agreement isnt relevant.

You have the ability to reroll your to hit, as you can pick up dice showing "1" and reroll them. Is a "1" not a roll to-hit?

Given you are insisting there is some form of "quality" of reroll you must have, could you follow the tenets and produce some rules to back up your assertions?

You cannot actually produce them, however this is an attempt to get you to try to actually prove your case, rather than make unfounded, proven incorrect assertions.

(oh, and again - the quality of reroll is magically being discussed, despite the rules NEVER requiring any form of "quality" of reroll. Sure this was predicted by a few people, and its coming true again...)

 BlackTalos wrote:

the *hypothesis* (when discussing rules where words count for a lot, please be careful) of the other side leads to other issues, mainly allowing a lot more re-rolls than is intended.

Do you have evidence of what's intended? Or did you mean to say "... than what I think is intended." ?