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Remember this poll a while back, in the aftermath of the specialist games going away? Well, now we have our answer: the 58 people who voted for White Dwarf are the winners! But, now GW finds themselves in another crisis. Their position hasn't improved at all since the last poll, and now things are bad enough that they've made it into the financial report and caused an overnight loss of a quarter of GW's stock value. So far we've seen GW attempt to solve the crisis by releasing stuff as fast as possible, regardless of quality, and getting into microtransactions. But surely there will be new cuts. So, what next?



White Dwarf 2.0: does anyone really think that "reimagining" your well-known brand name and turning it into little more than a weekly catalog is a successful business plan? TBH the only real question here is when GW puts it out of its misery.

Games Day: a new addition to the list. What is the point of having Games Day anymore? All of the fun events are gone, attendance is a joke, and the only real reason to go is to pick up some Forge World new releases. GW even brags about the fact that the best part of Games Day is getting the opportunity to buy the same GW products you find in your local GW store at the same price. There's hardly anything worthy of the title "Games Day" left anyway, so why not make the cancellation official?

Warhammer World: the same analysis is still true here. Having an open HQ with tons of gaming space and awesome events is a nice prestige thing, but it can't possibly be a net profit for GW and only a tiny minority of their customers will ever go there. Even WotC couldn't keep their gaming HQ profitable and had to close it, and I doubt GW is doing any better. Closing Warhammer World (and moving GW into a more modest office space) cuts expenses without a noticeable impact for most of their customers, so it's win/win.

Retail stores: this is a pretty unlikely one given GW's dominance in the UK market, stubborn insistence on opening new stores in the US, and desire to move everything out of independent stores and into their own website or retail closets. On the other hand, maybe someone will finally step in and point out the obvious fact that it's better to let the dedicated fanboys lose money operating the retail stores than to invest your own money in it. Still, it's probably too much of a dramatic change for GW to be capable of considering it.

Forge World: still probably making a net profit (even if it's at the cost of doing nothing but space marines), but in this difficult economy can a responsible company justify employing all those people to make prestige products when they could be working on more plastic space marine kits with a much higher profit margin? Plus, FW has a habit of doing awful things like marketing and previews, and that makes GW management look bad. And now there's that rumor that FW is going to be brought into "main" GW to consider...

Black Library: probably safe since sales are great, books are a safe and predictable industry, and it gets GW's brand into mainstream stores. On the other hand, does GW really want to let you get into their world with a mere $10 novel? And think of how many space marines you could buy and build in the time it takes you to read that novel...

LotR/Hobbit: it's funny how nothing has changed here. The second movie was another disappointment, the game still isn't selling, and any profits are probably going straight into license fees. And now new releases are pretty limited, so it looks like even GW can't pretend to be interested in the game. Really, the only reason to keep the game is if the license included a commitment to keep it in production for a certain amount of time.

40k army: and a sudden reversal here in the wake of GW's discovery of microtransactions and day-one DLC. While business factors might interfere with the release of new models the rules, on the other hand, are pure profit. Not only can we expect to see every existing army continue to exist we can probably expect them all to get $30 supplements that were thrown together on someone's lunch break. Now that people are used to the idea of having digital-only products GW doesn't even need to waste shelf space on these "books", all they have to do is upload something to the digital store and watch the easy money come in. Bet on this one if you really want to surprise everyone.

WHFB army: same is true for WHFB. Sure, the game sucks and nobody plays it anymore, but it costs you 15 minutes of the janitor's time to release a new rulebook so that's just easy profit from the last few dedicated fans. Though it's probably a little more likely than getting rid of a 40k army since hardly anyone would notice if one disappeared. In fact, I'm not even sure GW hasn't killed off an army or two since the last poll.

Lawyers: they've been surprisingly quiet lately, so I guess this means that they're unlikely to go anywhere. You've got to have a legal department of some kind, and they've finally stopped doing more harm than good to GW.

Other: did I miss something that GW can cut?

None of the above: WOTC buys them first: the vultures are circling, and GW's stock price could completely collapse (even more than it just did) at any moment. So there's still hope that someone a little more competent buys GW and has the sense to see GW's neglected products as an opportunity to exploit instead of an expense to cut.

None of the above: GW goes bankrupt first: the vultures are circling, but why deal with buying the dead weight of GW's management and retail stores when you can wait a bit longer, let them collapse completely, and buy the IP at bargain prices? Meanwhile GW's management will be too busy giving themselves generous retirement packages to deal with pesky little details like running the company and everyone will continue business as usual right up until the end.

BINGO, WE HAVE A WINNER:
None of the above: GW goes bankrupt first: the vultures are circling, but why deal with buying the dead weight of GW's management and retail stores when you can wait a bit longer, let them collapse completely, and buy the IP at bargain prices? Meanwhile GW's management will be too busy giving themselves generous retirement packages to deal with pesky little details like running the company and everyone will continue business as usual right up until the end.

I hope the board gets smart and they finally sack Kirby, but i think it is to late.

 Peregrine wrote:

Retail stores: ....desire to move everything out of independent stores and into their own website or retail closets.

I chose "Other" and you touched on it here. No more independent retailers, either online or otherwise. All sales direct from GW.

White Dwarf: I give it two years tops, where the last iteration lasted for 16 months. I predict the weekly mag will sell poorly, while the monthly one a bit better but still not well enough.

Games Day: I expect GD 2014 to be the last one, so cherish it, GD lovers.

Warhammer World: don't see it closing down unless it's along with the whole company.

Retail Stores: they're here to stay. More stores will be reduced to the 1-man model.

Forge World/Black Library: these are safe investments and don't fail to bring in profits, so they're not going anywhere, either.

Hobbit: they will only release the bare minimum sets, and once the license runs out, poof it goes. Good riddance.

40K army: no army is getting stricken. SoB will continue to languish with more models disappearing from the store, but they'll keep their "codex".

WFB army: I expect Bretonnia and Wood Elves to be either incorporated into other armies or blasted into the sun. These are possibly the two least marketable armies in the two systems, next to Beastmen.

Lawyers: a company of this size needs a legal department, which means they're safe.

None: some of the above will come into effect before the company is sold or folds.

Goodbye "Games" Day, we hardly knew ye.

 FeindusMaximus wrote:
BINGO, WE HAVE A WINNER:
None of the above: GW goes bankrupt first: the vultures are circling, but why deal with buying the dead weight of GW's management and retail stores when you can wait a bit longer, let them collapse completely, and buy the IP at bargain prices? Meanwhile GW's management will be too busy giving themselves generous retirement packages to deal with pesky little details like running the company and everyone will continue business as usual right up until the end.

Despite the poor half year results, GW are still a long way from bankruptcy. As much as people have derided the low growth strategy of GW it dose make them financially resilient. They haven't even lost money, they just had smaller profits than previous years. They don't really NEED to do much.

I suspect we are not going to see big cuts, but stabilization of prices (Carrying on the no yearly price rise, and not getting a price rise with every new codex), an continued fast pace of release for 40k. I think there will be some big changes with WHFB. Not cuts, but something to try and get players back.

Oh, and LotR/Hobbit will be out the door the second the contract will let them.

Games day might be gone, possibly, but then it has become less and less relevant for many years. I don't think many people will miss it.

Most of it is the normal "GW is the evils!!!" and the like. I don't buy that they are in that bad a situation. Yes, they will probably upset a few shareholders with reduced profits, but I don't see it as a big problem. Unfortunately to some people GW can do no right. Hence this kind of thread.

"Games" day definitely, why even waste money on some event that could be used as advertising. I mean they won't even buy tickets to be advertised to so why bother.

The consensus is Games Day but that's really an invalid choice since that writing was on the wall for over a year now.

I voted Warhammer Fantasy. A guy that works at my local place said that there are maybe rumors of a cut to fantasy. As the OP stated, not many people play fantasy anymore and the stock at my local store is the same stock from two years ago, dust and all. It seems to be a dying game over all. Now, He can't guarantee this and there is no backing at the point, but he has been fairly accurate so far.

So many choices!
I think it is quite hard to say. They wouldn't want to alienate any of their specific fan bases by cancelling games, whould they :?

I have voted games day. I think their open days work better and are the way forward

Interesting that you put Forgeworld in the list (and the following opinion probably includes black library) and I will vote for FW. But we won't see it disappear in the way you explain, it will just be changed for the worse. Let me explain (or ramble):

Personally, I feel lessons can be learned by wider GW from Forgeworld and how they engage the community. For example: Facebook and youtube marketing, pre-releases, conferences, events, weekenders, etc etc. People are generally excited to keep tabs on what FW are up to and what they put out.

However, recently, I get the feeling that management have started to meddle a little too much in what FW work on and what they put out. Take this comment FW put out on facebook:

Q: Just curious does anyone know of the black fire pass project is still being worked on?
Forgeworld: Hi, I'm afraid it is on indefinate (sic) hold at the moment.

Now, did they [FW] make the decision to hold or were they instructed to? I reckon Tamurkhan was quite a nice earner and a welcome addition to fantasy (Chaos Dwarfs amongst other things). But the recent direction FW is going in feels like they are being "leant on" to take certain paths:

- No new Imperial Armour books rumoured or on the horizon other than the 2nd edition releases
- Warhammer Forge not planning much in the way of new releases (wasn't the K'daai Destroyer being worked on a while back)
- The huge focus on the Horus Heresy. The quality of the product is high undoubtedly but I always felt that FW was never about going for the easiest money but to explore the universes in ways that the main design studio doesn't. The heresy series does that, but I get the feeling that there's a little too much emphasis at present and it feels a little forced in some ways.

Personally, if management starts to pull in FW more and more and start to exert more and more control, then I fear that FW will start to loose a lot of what makes it attractive to the fans. I am a huge fan of FW. I love the Imperial Armour series of books, the resin models, the attention to detail, the more indepth exploration of the universe and so on. But I am more than a little disappointed at what could be in store should management feel the need to micromanage FW more and more.

Ruberu wrote:
I voted Warhammer Fantasy. A guy that works at my local place said that there are maybe rumors of a cut to fantasy. As the OP stated, not many people play fantasy anymore and the stock at my local store is the same stock from two years ago, dust and all. It seems to be a dying game over all. Now, He can't guarantee this and there is no backing at the point, but he has been fairly accurate so far.

I'd doubt even GW would cut Fantasy, since it is by far their oldest IP and it would send very bad signals to their stockholders if they were to drop it.

Games Day is already gone, if the last couple of years are anything to go by. I can see it being replaced with a Golden Demon event at WHW instead.

 zedmeister wrote:
Interesting that you put Forgeworld in the list

I tried to cover every possible option, even the unlikely ones. I don't actually think that all of those have any realistic chance of being cut.

Now, did they [FW] make the decision to hold or were they instructed to?

I don't know, but the trend of ignoring the WHFB stuff has been going on for a while. It seems like they had some ideas for cool monster models, but not really a sustainable interest in the game. We never (IIRC) heard any detailed rumors about upcoming WHFB book releases, so was there ever any solid plan to cancel?

- No new Imperial Armour books rumoured or on the horizon other than the 2nd edition releases

This is more of a concern IMO, but again it goes back quite a while. Even before the Heresy stuff started coming out it didn't seem like they had a very clear plan for the IA books. IA8 went from a two-part book to a single book and some vague "maybe we'll come back to it later" thoughts, and IA11 and IA12 seemed to change concepts quite a few times before settling on what we actually got. But the updates have been pretty solid, and when we did finally get it IA12 was awesome. So I can imagine that there just isn't a strong desire to get a particular book out, and the vague concepts are just sitting around waiting for something worth making to emerge from them.

- The huge focus on the Horus Heresy. The quality of the product is high undoubtedly but I always felt that FW was never about going for the easiest money but to explore the universes in ways that the main design studio doesn't. The heresy series does that, but I get the feeling that there's a little too much emphasis at present and it feels a little forced in some ways.

I don't know, the impression I get is that the Heresy stuff is something that a lot of people, FW staff included, have wanted for a long time. And if their quoted sales numbers are honest then people are buying it, the top 10 sellers for the past month are all space marine kits and the first Heresy book is still selling well enough to get on the list. It wouldn't surprise me at all if everyone at FW is just having so much fun with the long-awaited Heresy project that everything else has become a distant secondary concern.

Personally, if management starts to pull in FW more and more and start to exert more and more control, then I fear that FW will start to loose a lot of what makes it attractive to the fans.

I do worry about this though. If nothing else, two words should terrify any FW customer: finecast titans.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Krellnus wrote:
I'd doubt even GW would cut Fantasy, since it is by far their oldest IP and it would send very bad signals to their stockholders if they were to drop it.

I doubt we'll see a complete end to WHFB in the foreseeable future, even if the models are just plain stupid and the game should be replaced by the LOTR games, but I don't think the investors would be too worried if they killed off an army or two. They could pretty easily spin it as cleaning up under-performing product lines to focus on the core identity of the brand, and I doubt many of the shareholders know enough about gaming to have any kind of informed response to cutting a few model kits.

 Peregrine wrote:
even if the models are just plain stupid and the game should be replaced by the LOTR games

You wound me sir.

 Peregrine wrote:

It wouldn't surprise me at all if everyone at FW is just having so much fun with the long-awaited Heresy project that everything else has become a distant secondary concern.

I think this has more to do with the stopping of the IA books than anything. It is a lack of control centrally that is causing it rather than too much IMO. FW have always said they do what interests them and what they have ideas for. I think they have lots of interest and ideas for the the HH stuff and everything else has been forgotten.

As for the WHFB stuff, it wouldn't surprise me if it was not selling very well at all.

They'll introduce no-man stores. There will only be Space Marines for sale and everything else will be direct only with a computer and a card machine on the wall.

 Peregrine wrote:

This is more of a concern IMO, but again it goes back quite a while. Even before the Heresy stuff started coming out it didn't seem like they had a very clear plan for the IA books. IA8 went from a two-part book to a single book and some vague "maybe we'll come back to it later" thoughts, and IA11 and IA12 seemed to change concepts quite a few times before settling on what we actually got. But the updates have been pretty solid, and when we did finally get it IA12 was awesome. So I can imagine that there just isn't a strong desire to get a particular book out, and the vague concepts are just sitting around waiting for something worth making to emerge from them.

- The huge focus on the Horus Heresy. The quality of the product is high undoubtedly but I always felt that FW was never about going for the easiest money but to explore the universes in ways that the main design studio doesn't. The heresy series does that, but I get the feeling that there's a little too much emphasis at present and it feels a little forced in some ways.

I don't know, the impression I get is that the Heresy stuff is something that a lot of people, FW staff included, have wanted for a long time. And if their quoted sales numbers are honest then people are buying it, the top 10 sellers for the past month are all space marine kits and the first Heresy book is still selling well enough to get on the list. It wouldn't surprise me at all if everyone at FW is just having so much fun with the long-awaited Heresy project that everything else has become a distant secondary concern.

It's all speculation and random guessing from me. There's still a huge wealth of background that FW still have left to explore: Genestealer Cults, the long desired Ad Mech (finally being released), Adeptus Arbites, Exodite Eldar, alternative Imperial Guard regiments, even the Demirug! I do hope you are right that the recent focus on the Heresy is down to the FW studio being so enthusiastic that they can't help but work on it. And that is another aspect of FW that really shines through - everyone at FW are always so enthustiastic about their products and that enthusiasm is infectious.

Don't get me wrong, I really like what FW are putting out in terms of the Heresy. I've even started building a White Scars force as well as getting the Ad Mech stuff. It's just that the more management get involved the more concerned I get.

 zedmeister wrote:
There's still a huge wealth of background that FW still have left to explore: Genestealer Cults, the long desired Ad Mech (finally being released), Adeptus Arbites, Exodite Eldar, alternative Imperial Guard regiments, even the Demirug!

True, but I think the important question is how much desire is there to explore it? I don't think they have any interest in exploring just for the sake of exploring (at least I hope they don't), so that unexplored background wouldn't matter too much unless they had a compelling idea for using it. If you look at all of the IA books they've done there have been variant army lists and obscure new units, but all of that exploration has still had strong ties to the parent codex. Something like a genestealer cult or arbites wouldn't have that same connection.

 Howard A Treesong wrote:
They'll introduce no-man stores. There will only be Space Marines for sale and everything else will be direct only with a computer and a card machine on the wall.

This could actually be done. A consumer electronics chain in the US called "Best Buy" has electronic vendors in airports and malls all over the US where you can buy anything from a video game console, to an iPad, to cheap headphones. I've seen similar things in airports in Europe. Just set one of these bad boys up in a mall somewhere and the only person you have to pay is the guy that restocks it once a week. It would cost about the same as it does to place a vending machine in the mall. This could be a decent idea in larger or in markets where they have a limited presence and want to test the waters before they put in an actual retail store.

In the end though, this game is about getting people into a door and showing people the social aspects of the game.

LotR. I have yet to see anyone on here who plays. Now I know I'll find People in the dedicated area of the forums, but I've never seen the Hobbit stuff in anyone's sig.

 Overlord Thraka wrote:
LotR. I have yet to see anyone on here who plays. Now I know I'll find People in the dedicated area of the forums, but I've never seen the Hobbit stuff in anyone's sig.

Got to agree. While it was clearly popular during the original run of releases, I've never seen a single person at my shop try the system, nor seen anyone buy anything for it.

LotR/Hobbit are under contract that I'm sure has a buyout clause in it. With the last Hobbit movie still to be released, they have at least 1 more year on the contract; I would expect at least 2 more years to cover beyond the movie release and following DVD/home release. Can't be cut nor not supported without penalty.

Warhammer Fantasy is a core product that while I don't think the gaming community would care so much about seeing go away, especially after the most recent edition, I think the stock holders would see that as a major loss, thus devaluing the stock even more. Can't be cut due to stock crash.

Retail stores are what should be cut, but I think GW thinks that they can squeeze the most money out of it's customers by having them. I tend to agree that GW would go GW store or GW mail order only before they shutdown their retail arm.

Games Day and White Dwarf are low cost items that don't really impact the bottom line. I would expect them to go away, but even if they don't, it's not a huge impact.

Forgeworld and Black Library are probably profitable on their own and will stick around. It appears Forgeworld is now part of GWs high cost, high margin business model and is probably seen as key to keeping them in the black.

I vote lawyers, but they already got rid of Gill Stevenson, so don't forget that Peregrine. However, I think it is most likely that they'll fire Foley and Lardner and file a malpractice claim. In a financial state like this, not having to pay a million dollars in fees might seem like too attractive a possibility to pass up.

 Steve steveson wrote:
Despite the poor half year results, GW are still a long way from bankruptcy. As much as people have derided the low growth strategy of GW it dose make them financially resilient. They haven't even lost money, they just had smaller profits than previous years. They don't really NEED to do much.

Whilst you are technically correct, their cash position also declined by ~£4.7m over the half year (approx. 33%).

It must be depressing to be a GW employee, log onto the web (without GW approval of course), and see DakkaDakka's predictions of demise.

text removed.

reds8n

I hope they go bankrupt that latest codex was a donkey diorama turd

Well, I think it will be business as usual, they are a long way from bankruptcy and the end was nigh ten years ago, according to some, nothing new to see here.