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I'd like to start a discussion into why there seems to be so much WHFB hate on these message boards and others. From the "what is GW going to drop next" thread, to the thread discussing GW's recent financial shortfalls, several posters across the internets seem to think WHFB is a bad system and a bad game.

While I think there are issues, I'm of the opinion that it is leaps and bounds better system than 40k is right now. Most legit complaints seem to focus on things like magic and cavalry, which most armies are on a level playing field with, and it's rare to see individual codex complaints, or threads about a certain army being completely broken in respect to the meta like Tau and Eldar detractors claim.

Is it just ignorance to the system from players that tried it many moons ago? Is it really just a terrible system and I'm oblivious?

Where I live in Texas, both systems share equal prominance. The consensus in our group is that Fantasy is a better game, but the start up is more than 40k, and that limits some players involvement.

As someone who has played both games I have to agree in that Fantasy has always been far more enjoyable and rewarding to play. Every single edition of fantasy and 40k to date has had elements that could be improved upon, we'll never get an edition that every person loves. I haven't played 40k in this recent edition, but personally this edition of fantasy has been my favourite by a mile and I have been playing since mid 5th. I don't think it's necessarily anything new for players who play one system exclusively to state that the other is 'broken'. A lot bring their own preconceptions about fantasy/sci-fi settings and judge solely off that, even without having much experience actually playing the game.

I think another thing to consider is that complaining is really easy. People with something to complain about are probably more likely to pipe up and create threads to discuss/rant these frustrations than someone with positive things to say. Some people actually do this well and offer thought provoking issues. More often than not though these people come off as petulant whingers.

Really, it's not for anyone else to decide how much enjoyment you can get for the hobby though. Don't second guess your own enjoyment for the sake of someone else who hates it.

Cost is the main reason Fantasy catches a lot of flak the larger unit sizes and the smaller quantities in boxes tend to turn people away. However I noticed that with the Lizardmen GW is trying to remedy this with larger unit portions in boxes. That being said it still costs a pretty penny to field your more "elite" choices like Empire long swords, High Elf Sword Masters, ect.. being that they only come 10 in a box. With the current direction that GW seems to be going I can see them fixing this in the next edition with the new Army Books.

Also a big reason for Fantasy hate is the current edition. First off let me say I LOVE the current edition I feel that it balances the game, makes it to where basic Infantry is the central focus, cavalry acts like I don't know cavalry and not a tank, and even tho the Magic is Super powerful it is still random and can back fire just a easily as it causes devastation. However these are some of the reasons the current edition gets some hate. As well as some special rule changes that made the game more tactical instead of a power gaming type game like 40K can be at times. Granite you still have your units that you avoid like the plague because they will cut you so bad that you wish they didn't cut you so bad, but over all the rule changes made the game more fare at times. For example one can no longer field a monstrous creature move it close to an enemy unit forcing them to take a LD test and if they were a low LD army they would fail break and run off the board that happened to me when I played Gobbos all the freaking time!!

Any way....

The way I see it is this it all comes down to personal taste and how you feel about the rule set. I feel the game gets hate for all the wrong reasons, but to each their own live and let live ect...

I agree. The issues with the rules span the entire game, and not from army book to army book. Everyone is in the same boat so to speak. Magic is powerful, but outside of Dwarfs, everyone has access to it and can reap it's benefits and pitfalls equally.

I also feel there is a greater premium on actual tactical prowess over 40k, particularly in the movement phase.

I completely understand not liking it from a cost perspective, but that is true with the hobby overall. 40k might be cheaper, but it's still not cheap.

everyone has access to it and can reap it's benefits and pitfalls equally.

that would be true if the number of kill spells that kill through an I test was the same as those that kill through a str test. Right now all high I armies have a better chance to survive most deadly spells .


As to bad vs good . all WFB sells seem to bring in less then just space marines , so atleast using their wallets people seem to be thinking that w40k is better , even if it isn't clear why they think so .

riburn3 wrote:
I agree. The issues with the rules span the entire game, and not from army book to army book. Everyone is in the same boat so to speak. Magic is powerful, but outside of Dwarfs, everyone has access to it and can reap it's benefits and pitfalls equally.

Except if you wan't the game result to be inferred by your decisions during the game instead of if you managed to roll the right dice on the right spell.

riburn3 wrote:

I also feel there is a greater premium on actual tactical prowess over 40k, particularly in the movement phase.

You can't have tactical prowess in the movement phase if said movement is random, that doesn't make any sense.

riburn3 wrote:

I completely understand not liking it from a cost perspective, but that is true with the hobby overall. 40k might be cheaper, but it's still not cheap.

WHFB was the "mature" game compared with 40K in previous editions because games hinged on precise manoeuvring of your troops and on the use of actual tactics, but since 8th edition can be resumed to: move huge blocks on infantry straight forward, roll buckets of meaningless dice, whoever gets the right spell off first wins the game, this caused almost all players that where actually interested in having a tactical game to look for other options.

I don't really think there is a lot of fantasy hate. I think people who complain or think it will be dropped is people who haven't played it or only seen it played a few times.

As for the complaints about magic...I kind of agree haha Not that there is bad balance with it or anything but I find that sometimes during larger games 2000-3000 points that it ends up being wizards just casting fat spells everywhere haha.
On the other hand I think that 40k kind of lacks magic, there is some but it isn't the same....I really like rolling for winds of magic and dispell dice. 40k you just roll a leadership test

phantom viper points make no sence, if you just move troops forward you would lose every game.

phantom viper has been playing with people who think the Deathstar is the ultimate in tactical thought. So either the deathstar pushes straight over everything in it's path, or it gets killed by a super-spell.

His mates have never discovered the possibilities of MSU, chaff, and redirectors to keep that deathstar from ever seeing a worthwhile combat. So naturally he thinks his group is typical of all groups everywhere.

 Vulcan wrote:
phantom viper has been playing with people who think the Deathstar is the ultimate in tactical thought. So either the deathstar pushes straight over everything in it's path, or it gets killed by a super-spell.

His mates have never discovered the possibilities of MSU, chaff, and redirectors to keep that deathstar from ever seeing a worthwhile combat. So naturally he thinks his group is typical of all groups everywhere.

Actually PhantomViper doesn't play Fantasy any more because myself and almost my entire meta dropped the game shortly after this abomination of an edition came out.

But, hey, you guys must be right, there is absolutely nothing wrong with 8th edition! The edition that has dropped Fantasy from 2nd to 4th most sold game in the US, has seen entire gaming groups vanish into thin air and that has GW itself talking about axing entire armies if not the game itself surely is the best ever!

i play both and collecting tau and WOC but in 40k is not this edition bad? i can sit back with riptides and table a player in 2-3 turns? i enjoy both very much even thou i rarly play

WFB is not, IMO any more tactical - its more about precision and angles. The tactical element of the games, again IMO, also suffer from the mono nature of the sceanrios, lack of objectives / and the terrain being usually ignored or pointless..

One of the reasons I don't like it along with the "chaff" aspect and the comparative power of magic - even if I thought it was ok when it came out - got proved wrong there big time.

8th was a good step forward for me with pre-measuring (like most good games) and some other changes.

but if you play tau you ignore the cover any ways

PhantomViper wrote:

 Vulcan wrote:
phantom viper has been playing with people who think the Deathstar is the ultimate in tactical thought. So either the deathstar pushes straight over everything in it's path, or it gets killed by a super-spell.

His mates have never discovered the possibilities of MSU, chaff, and redirectors to keep that deathstar from ever seeing a worthwhile combat. So naturally he thinks his group is typical of all groups everywhere.

Actually PhantomViper doesn't play Fantasy any more because myself and almost my entire meta dropped the game shortly after this abomination of an edition came out.

But, hey, you guys must be right, there is absolutely nothing wrong with 8th edition! The edition that has dropped Fantasy from 2nd to 4th most sold game in the US, has seen entire gaming groups vanish into thin air and that has GW itself talking about axing entire armies if not the game itself surely is the best ever!

PhatomViper also thinks that the US is the only country in the world and that Americans are always right and that their opinions and tendencies reflect those of the rest of the world's (although The Shadow is curious and would like to see some solid statistics on this).

From most people The Shadow has talked to online and around his gaming group, 8th edition Fantasy is widely seen as one of the best editions of Fantasy ever. Of course, with every new edition you'll p. off some people, because they're upset that their uber-army doesn't work anymore, or because they lost 20 guys to one spell in their first and only game of the edition, but there'll be many more people who will have enjoyed the edition because of such things.

PhantomViper wrote:

riburn3 wrote:

I also feel there is a greater premium on actual tactical prowess over 40k, particularly in the movement phase.

You can't have tactical prowess in the movement phase if said movement is random, that doesn't make any sense.

Movement is not random. Charging is.

And even then, its on a bell curve and there are distances where a charge is guaranteed. So you can play the odds.

Its a risk vs reward type of skill. Which is actually more fun than simply being good at judging distances like 7th was(and 7th was an abomination of an edition with so much more broken crap)

Agreed

I find that pre-measuring only enhances games - plus people don't try and find work arounds (or even just cheat)

I don;t understand WarMachine where they have their wierd - we don;t allow pre-measuring but have a work around actually in the rules to allow it - very odd.

I think the people who say fantasy is non-existent and underplayed are in stores that don't promote the game.

Like I pointed out in that terrible article about the "Inevitable death of WFB", in the Midwest at least, Fantasy is as strong as 40k and considered by my store at least to be the superior game.

 Grey Templar wrote:

PhantomViper wrote:

riburn3 wrote:

I also feel there is a greater premium on actual tactical prowess over 40k, particularly in the movement phase.

You can't have tactical prowess in the movement phase if said movement is random, that doesn't make any sense.

Movement is not random. Charging is.

And even then, its on a bell curve and there are distances where a charge is guaranteed. So you can play the odds.

Its a risk vs reward type of skill. Which is actually more fun than simply being good at judging distances like 7th was(and 7th was an abomination of an edition with so much more broken crap)

The random charging is actually a benefit. Back before it, when you knew this unit could charge 8" and this unit could charge 10", it really turned into a shuffling and guessing distances match. Once you'd got the knack of judging it, it really shafted lower movement models.

Risk vs Reward is the best type of tactics you're gonna get in a game which involves dice, i.e. luck. I could have the best tactics in the world, and my opponent the worst, and I could still lose, because of luck. It's highly improbable, but it could happen. Yes, you may have a 24.35% chance of failing that charge, but it's the Risk vs Reward aspect which will tell you whether or not it's a good idea, same goes for casting a spell with X dice, for example. The main skill in games like these is tilting the odds in your favour.

kyle foster wrote:
phantom viper points make no sence, if you just move troops forward you would lose every game.

Thanks, when I read Phantom Viper's nonsensical post I was going to reply, but everyone else did a good job. BUT, Phantom Viper does very much represent the player or person I am talking about in my OP.

I guess the answer to why WHFB gets hated on tends to be ignorance.

riburn3 wrote:
I guess the answer to why WHFB gets hated on tends to be ignorance.

Haha, well said!

The local players I've found that tend to hate-on Fantasy the most part are generally all;

a) Bandwagon hoppers who can only compete when they're abusing the latest and most broken combos in 40k.
It's amusing to listen to the guy running double Riptide + Buffmander + Eldar allies to rant about how Fantasy is too childish & simplistic because all you apparently need to do is 6-dice P.Sun each game to auto-win...

b) The 'push it forwards' or 'sit in a gunline' & roll a bucket of dice types who will never be able to understand the finer points of the movement phase such as chaffing and/or bait-and-flee tactics.
(though admittedly Dwarf players are kinda shoehorned at the moment to play a gunline-based game because their rules are so damn ancient!)

PhantomViper wrote:

 Vulcan wrote:
phantom viper has been playing with people who think the Deathstar is the ultimate in tactical thought. So either the deathstar pushes straight over everything in it's path, or it gets killed by a super-spell.

His mates have never discovered the possibilities of MSU, chaff, and redirectors to keep that deathstar from ever seeing a worthwhile combat. So naturally he thinks his group is typical of all groups everywhere.

Actually PhantomViper doesn't play Fantasy any more because myself and almost my entire meta dropped the game shortly after this abomination of an edition came out.

But, hey, you guys must be right, there is absolutely nothing wrong with 8th edition! The edition that has dropped Fantasy from 2nd to 4th most sold game in the US, has seen entire gaming groups vanish into thin air and that has GW itself talking about axing entire armies if not the game itself surely is the best ever!

Ah. So you admit you never did explore alternate ways to beat those pesky deathstars that just stroll ahead and destroy everything they touch.

I'll grant you there are issues with the game; major issues at that. But 'push units straight forward and roll buckets of dice' will get you a bottom-rank placement in any tournament. Tactics are REAL. Units MOVE. And if you're not prepared to account for their movement, you LOOSE.

I don't hate WFB - quite the opposite - I just think its had a bad edition and needs a shake up.

People dont like change so when there are major changes like 7 to 8 they hate it more.


8th has its problems but every edition has. Some people think whfb will be canned due to poor sales, not because they hate or even care about the game.

riburn3 wrote:

kyle foster wrote:
phantom viper points make no sence, if you just move troops forward you would lose every game.

Thanks, when I read Phantom Viper's nonsensical post I was going to reply, but everyone else did a good job. BUT, Phantom Viper does very much represent the player or person I am talking about in my OP.

I guess the answer to why WHFB gets hated on tends to be ignorance.

Yes, I only played Fantasy from 1996 up until 8th edition came out, I'm completely ignorant about it...

And through all the praise singing of the game, not one person in this thread explained why the game had huge drops in sales numbers after such a great edition like 8th came along... weird...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Grey Templar wrote:

PhantomViper wrote:

riburn3 wrote:

I also feel there is a greater premium on actual tactical prowess over 40k, particularly in the movement phase.

You can't have tactical prowess in the movement phase if said movement is random, that doesn't make any sense.

Movement is not random. Charging is.

And even then, its on a bell curve and there are distances where a charge is guaranteed. So you can play the odds.

Its a risk vs reward type of skill. Which is actually more fun than simply being good at judging distances like 7th was(and 7th was an abomination of an edition with so much more broken crap)

Charging is random, ignoring march blocking units is random, even allowing your units free reforms is based on a random roll...

So what if its a probability bell curve, its still RANDOM!

And no, its not risk vs reward skill, its taking game changing decisions away from the hands of the players and putting them exclusively on dice rolls.

And 7th edition was definitively not full of broken crap, even though I much preferred 6th edition, 7th's only problem were the codexes that where released in the end, most notably the abomination that was the Daemon codex, the core game rules were perfectly fine and much better than this one's...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Vulcan wrote:

PhantomViper wrote:

 Vulcan wrote:
phantom viper has been playing with people who think the Deathstar is the ultimate in tactical thought. So either the deathstar pushes straight over everything in it's path, or it gets killed by a super-spell.

His mates have never discovered the possibilities of MSU, chaff, and redirectors to keep that deathstar from ever seeing a worthwhile combat. So naturally he thinks his group is typical of all groups everywhere.

Actually PhantomViper doesn't play Fantasy any more because myself and almost my entire meta dropped the game shortly after this abomination of an edition came out.

But, hey, you guys must be right, there is absolutely nothing wrong with 8th edition! The edition that has dropped Fantasy from 2nd to 4th most sold game in the US, has seen entire gaming groups vanish into thin air and that has GW itself talking about axing entire armies if not the game itself surely is the best ever!

Ah. So you admit you never did explore alternate ways to beat those pesky deathstars that just stroll ahead and destroy everything they touch.

I'll grant you there are issues with the game; major issues at that. But 'push units straight forward and roll buckets of dice' will get you a bottom-rank placement in any tournament. Tactics are REAL. Units MOVE. And if you're not prepared to account for their movement, you LOOSE.

Off course we explored alternatives, the first few months off the new edition was nothing more than trying to find ways to use our old MSU armies to try and counter the "new" death star tactics. And guess what: even with all the redirection and small sacrificial units, the game still came down to getting the right spell off to deal with the death star, because that is all that 8th edition is.

PhantomViper wrote: the game still came down to getting the right spell off to deal with the death star, because that is all that 8th edition is.

alex87 wrote:

riburn3 wrote:
I guess the answer to why WHFB gets hated on tends to be ignorance.

Haha, well said!

Astute.

Fenrir Kitsune wrote:
I don't hate WFB - quite the opposite - I just think its had a bad edition and needs a shake up.

QFT

And as others have said, regardless of gameplay, right now the game is just untenable. It needs a shake up, and badly... hopefully it comes this summer, letting it languish another year would be a bad business decision imo.

PhantomViper wrote:


And through all the praise singing of the game, not one person in this thread explained why the game had huge drops in sales numbers after such a great edition like 8th came along... weird...

So, you are saying that the main reason the game is having problems is due to the rule set? So, we just need to forget that 8th edition now has had a full circulation of numerous armies being updated with ten model boxes? It's not hard for players to look at a box of ten skellies and begin to do the math of how much this is going to hurt. When many of these people were 40k players and looked at it like 'Yea, buying a Space Marine box set isn't cheap, but at least its the full squad. I'd have to buy 3 to 4 boxes to make one decent unit.' When you add in the fact that 8th edition wants to be a game with massive armies playing out some form of epic battle, then there is a problem within its core that to me is beyond the difference between person A hating the rules and person B enjoying the rules.

I don't know what it was like for other areas. My area dried up in fantasy back in early 7th anyways to where it was only my core group of friends that still played. Another area that was a two hour drive had some form of competitive scene were having issues during the 'Era of Darkness' of DE, VC, and Daemons utterly tearing new holes in people with the OP from Shade-stars to the over-abundance of Fear routing units easy. Fortunately, I took a sabbatical during that time because if I had played up there for tournaments, I probably would have cashed out if I saw this as the future of Fantasy. While 40k also had their little dark era themselves when Grey Knights and other books started wrecking the tourney scene in both areas, the difference between Fantasy and 40k is that Fantasy did not seem to recover from it.

Now, 8th edition drops and some new excitement seems to be brewing. I hear that the people that were playing OP lists decided to shelve or cash out their armies because they threw up their hands and said 'it doesn't work anymore' after playing a few games. A number of people were also getting somewhat disillusioned with 40k because of GK at the time, so I decided to capitalize on it and bring down my stuff. No telling how many of these people were saying 'but I heard these people saying that 8th edition is the worst edition EVAR!" then I put out the stuff and we start playing informing them not to listen to the vocal minority. It didn't take long for people to start having fun again. And that seemed to be the main thing about 8th edition - a return to much more of a laid-back 'fun' game. If those who consider fun to be just cramming units of flame-breathing Tzeentchies down their opponent's throat, then this was not the game for them.

The store was able to sell quite a few number of Isle of Blood boxes as well when they came out later....... and then nothing. I could only get people to play if they had their IoB stuff or wanted to use my stuff. Between someone playing 40k and Fantasy, the money is most definitely going to tilt toward 40k.

Does 8th edition have problems? Yes. But the main problems seem to me just need tweaking rather then re-doing. Magic lores need to be tweaked. Cannons need to be adjusted accordingly. Steadfast needs more counters put in it. March blocking much stricter. As for the random charges not movement, it really isn't that bad once you get used to it and start planning your army into redirecting and supporting it as much as possible if said charges fail. Some people also get this idea that you have just have to lawnmower your guys down the field, but these people have obviously never faced a guy that actually chooses the 'flee' option to try to get certain enemy units to over-extend themselves and leave them open for you.

TL: DR So, I am of the opinion that 8th edition's main stumbling block is the prices per model rather then the rules. A lot of this so-called 'hate' seems to be more just the internet group-think of the vocal minority having their say stick to people's minds.

I thkink Goldshield is right. There are a lot of little tweaks that need to be done. I really think the minimum rank number needs to be brought back down to four. Steadfast invalidates cavalry and most elite troops. Magic just needs a spell redesign, but I like the mechanics of the phase. And I'm sorry, if you want to make an army with any kind of variety and choice the cost and model count goes up.

PhantomViper, hate to break it to you but 7th edition was all about death stars see ChosenStar, GraveStar, LionStar, etc. The pass or die spells that got rolled out in 8th were IMO introduced as a way for players to combat these hilariously overpowered units that destroyed anything they touched.

And now that a majority of armies have had their books updated you don't see as many death stars as before moreover it's easier for competent players to deal with these units to the point that i'd say a majority of competitive players don't rely on them. Chaff them the entire game, 6 spells, or just outmaneuvering them are just some of the ways one has to deal with said hassle.

I personally think the reason your butt hurt about 8th is because you had an army that worked in 7th and when 8th edition came out, you didn't adapt your list or even your tactics and struggled with the change. It really is a great system and the new books coming out (with the exception of DoC) have really good internal and external balance, banner of the world dragon notwithstanding.