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Alright, I am running a GK player who recently took on Eldar allies to compensate for the fact that I don't have a mobile army outside of taking interceptors and huge amounts of henchman to score. After adding the Eldar allies, I have gotten a good amount of different results with the Jetbikes with a Jetseer getting in back of enemy lines and the Wave Serpent with Fire Dragons loaded in it is able to shock my opponent but my GK forces still get torn to shreads because the one player I play quite frequently has taken Iron Hands and filled his heavy slots with Thunderfire Cannons and rips any exposed troops to shreds so he takes out my heavy weapons henchman squad quickly and then pops my rhino with 10 GKSS in it then the next turn rips them up. I have come up with some strategies to mitigate this primarily revolving around breaking the 10 man squad in two 5 man squads each with Rhino and taking that henchman squad from this:

2 Jokaero
3 Warrior Acolytes plasma gun power armor
3 Servitors multi-melta

To this:
2 Jokaero
3 Servitors multi-melta
Chimera with 2 Heavy Bolters

That way does it not only give people more things they have to shoot at with two rhinos and a chimera but it also puts those heavy weapons behind some armor making it a bit more difficult to get to them. Also, I have 2 psyriflemen dreads on the field and the Eldar forces with a Stormraven full of terminators waiting in reserves. Just wanted to see what some other people have done when going up against thunderfire cannons. I tried taking out the techmarine but with a 2+ save, he is almost as hard to take out as the cannon itself.

I'm not a GK or Eldar player but here are things that usually hurt my TFC:

-forcing lots of rolls (usually 3+ cover or 3+ armor on the gun) your Psyfleman Dreads should do a good enough job; at the very least, it'll force the TFC to stay hidden which hampers its accuracy

-along with previous point: mass poison and rending weaponry; your GK probably don't have much of that but your Eldar allies should

-psykers! Specifically, psychic shriek: the techmarine is only Ld8, very easy to force 3 wounds on it with no save whatsoever (learnt that the hard way against Fateweaver)

Finally, remember that per the new rule the TFC blasts now have the barrage rule, so if you can put your units under a ledge or obstacle of some sort it will completely protect them.

Hope this helps.

I am unaware of this Barrage Rule as far as being under something because I had asked about that and he said as long as he targets the correct level there is no penalty of him firing at my henchman when they have floors above them covering them.

And should I be targeting the cannon then itself with the Psyfleman Dreads instead of the techmarine with the 2+ armor save?

I was at the time moving my Farseer with a Jetbike into position to cause psychic havoc. Unfortunately, we had to conclude the game before my Farseer did anything fun.

1) Review the rules for barrage and blast weapons, the "level selection" applies to direct hit blasts (frag missiles, plasma cannons, etc...) and templates. If your unit is completely covered, he cannot target them with a barrage weapon.

2) While killing the techmarine is the quickest way to get rid of the TFC, If you lack AP2 weaponry, target the cannon to force the 3+ saves. You might kill the gun and not the techmarine but at least you got rid of the blasts.

Oh wow, if that is the case, then that battle should of went significantly different because they were definitely fully covered. That makes me feel a bit better that my henchman shouldn't have been taken out that easily in the place I decided to stick them but that doesn't mean that I will always have ruins/buildings that completely cover my henchman so I still might go forward with placing them in a tin can.

And now I know that I shouldn't waste anything on the techmarine unless it is AP 2 which would negate his armor save...

Alright, gives me a bit more handle on this and that the loss wasn't my list. I have done so many re-formatting that I almost considered an army change but I love my GKs and don't want to give up on them.

The TFC was a regular blast in the 5th ed codex, but now it can only hit the top level of any structure.

That would change how we have been playing these past games that he has always dominated against because he goes right for my henchman in ruins to make sure they don't stay around for long but they have always been in full encapsulated ruins with floors above their heads. Damn, kind of annoys me knowing this.

Henchmen should not shoot at a TFC. Find another way to deal with it such as.

Servo skulls 20" from the TFC means the edge of a strike or termie squad can deep strike 8" away from the TFC with only d6" scatter. Deploy the rest of the squad towards the tfc and it becomes closer to 5". Worst case scenario is scattering 6" back and only 1" on the run, but even then you need a 4 " assault next turn after moving. 1 deamon hammer hit and the techmarines goes squish. Just be sure to run instead of shoot because 3 tfc will tear up clustered teq or meq.

assaulting out of a storm raven is another option.

Could also flat out a wave serpent full of fire dragons into the back of his army so they get clean shots on the techmarine instead of the TFC. It's still t7, but now it's 1w with 5+ cover instead of the 2w gun with 3+ bolstered ruins.

Hi there,

I play marines with a TFC. I too were surprised by the barrage rule where hiding under a ledge confers protection from artillery.

Referrin to my DV rulebook pg 34, there's no mention that an artillery will hit the top most units only.

It makes sense that lobbing shots in an indirect manner would cause something to hit the top ledges first. I stand corrected as a noob but I can't find a rule in the DV rule book that tells me that I can't target a unit on the second floor of a three storey ruins.

If this has been covered somewhere else, I apologise for my lacklustre search skills.

I too am curious about this..
My understanding is that the TFC can not hit any models other than those that are in the same floor that i choose to place the blast marker.
For example, if a unit is spread across 3 different stories of the same ruin, i choose which level to target with the TFC and then i can only kill models in this level

My understanding is:

1) pick a target unit

2) place center hole of blast marker over the base of a model in that unit. This step is important because: with barrage, wounds are allocated from the center of the blast (read: "barrage sniping"), cover saves are also resolved from the center of the barage. For barrage weaponry you look straight down from above, which means if the unit is completely covered it cannot be targeted. If you see at least 1 base though, it still works (ie: the bomb drops where the hole is, then it explodes).

3) roll 1st scatter dice, resolve final location (remember that both the crew and the gun must see the targeted model to use BS to reduce scatter distance, otherwise it will scatter fully). Look straight down over the blast marker, if you hit at least 1 model partially then continue with the other blasts. If you hit nothing or if the hole hits a higher level (without hitting anyone) then you fail and don't get to roll the other blasts.

4) for the next blasts just roll the scatter dice. If an arrow is rolled then "flip" the blast marker in that direction and resolve wounds (again, in theory you wound from the center, but it can get tough to track the order of the casualties). As before, if the hole hits a higher level without hitting anyone then you fail to wound. If you roll a hit you can place the hole anywhere within the 1st blast marker's position (does not have to be where the 1st one was exactly, and this time the hole does not have to be over a base) but you still can't tuck it under the ledge, you gotta see the hole from above. Subsequent flips and hits will be solved from the 1st blast marker's position.

Couple more points: barrage weapons also force pinning checks, just like snipers. You roll 2 dices and pick highest for armor penetration.

Hope this helps. It took me a while to understand the intricacies of barrage weaponry.

Where exactly does it say that barrage weapons roll two dice for armor penetration??

Don't have the brb on me, could be mixing it up with ordnance. I believe some rules carry over, someone check for me please.

Hits are resolved on side armor, there is no rolling 2 dice.

Also, if the center of a Blast is over a lower level then the shot is resolved at that level.

Jaw of the World Wolf auto-kills the TFC if it hits.

 SlaveToDorkness wrote:
Hits are resolved on side armor, there is no rolling 2 dice.

Also, if the center of a Blast is over a lower level then the shot is resolved at that level.

Yep, that is exactly how i believe it works.
The TFC player chooses to place the blast marker on a specific level and only models in this level can be hit and killed

You dont get to choose. The shot lands on the highest level that the center of the blast is over.

The fact that the TFC has the barrage weapon type means that it will only ever hit on the highest level of anything. You may not pick a level. This makes since based on the fact that it is a barrage, meaning it is fired in a very high arching trajectory and usually strikes from directly above. The advantages of a barrage weapon is that it wounds from the center and thusly cover is decided from there. Yet the down falls are as said earlier. Also barrage does not allow 2d6 for armor penetration, that is from ordinance. There are parts of the rule book that cover the barrage effects on ruins.

Again, a barrage weapon can hit a lower level if the center of the blast marker is over the lower level of a Ruin.

This can be achieved by a scatter, placing the marker over it and hitting, or flipping a multi-barrage marker over a lower level.

There definitely is some dissagreement on how the TFC fires whether it can choose a level or can only hit the top level. Anyone have direct rule citation?

 Envihon wrote:
There definitely is some dissagreement on how the TFC fires whether it can choose a level or can only hit the top level. Anyone have direct rule citation?

It is really simple - it hits the highest level that the hole in the blast template is over. You don`t choose anything, but you can hit second story in a three story ruin if the hole is over second floor and not third floor.

No disagreement; it must follow the barrage rules.

 phoenix darkus wrote:
-psykers! Specifically, psychic shriek: the techmarine is only Ld8, very easy to force 3 wounds on it with no save whatsoever (learnt that the hard way against Fateweaver)

This is how I deal with them, although last time I faced a TFC (two of them), they were hidden behind a building deep in my enemy's deployment zone, and I couldn't get LoS on them until the start of turn three. I wound up just landing a Daemon Prince for each TFC and just killed them in CC. Most of the time they die quickly to Psychic Shriek. I just reserve my troops or other vulnerable units until I can get range on the TFC with my FMCs.

Hmmm, what school has access to Psychic Shriek because my psykers are my Inquisitor who uses Divination to support the heavy henchman squad and the Farseer who rolls off of the Runes of Fate.

Telepathy if memory serves.

just so it can come back to this thread from YMDC.

barrage rules are on p34 and the relevant p100.

the centre hole is what is important, if any of the hole is over a particular level or covers multiple levels (like clipping the 2nd floor) it will 'hit' the highest level that is covered.

that rule unto itself is very clear and self evident.

as for dealing with TFC's as grey knights, saturation. you have psybolt ammo...utilise it.

CC is the best answer...
Failing that, spamming high S shots on the gun will solve the issue quickly, or snipe-removing the techy.

volume of fire. It's only got 2 wounds and a 3+ save. I can see splinter rifles taking these out easily

Dalymiddleboro wrote:
volume of fire. It's only got 2 wounds and a 3+ save. I can see splinter rifles taking these out easily

Poison is good because it is T7 when you shoot at it so volume of fire can be tough.

 buddha wrote:

Dalymiddleboro wrote:
volume of fire. It's only got 2 wounds and a 3+ save. I can see splinter rifles taking these out easily

Poison is good because it is T7 when you shoot at it so volume of fire can be tough.

That's true. I often forget how awesome ranged poison shots are haha.