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Given what happened to the defenders of Armageddon after a relatively limited exposure to chaos i can't imagine that the Cadians will be spared with Erebus doing dark reituals and summoning demons. Oh and they've probably also figured out that the stuff about the fallen angels and traitor primarchs are far more than a myth.

The Cadians won't die thanks to their supreme plot armour technology that offers optimal resistance against large scale Chaos invasions.

Cadians already know a lot about the threat of chaos as they are the first line of defence. I guess that gives them a lot of leeway with the normal allowable amount of knowledge.

Cadia's entire population is millitary. They can all be mobilized should the need arise. They know this, and they need to (and do) know the enemy they face. The most common enemy is chaos, so they have to know it exists. It is unreasonable to expect them not to know it exists. It's even more unreasonable to kill them because they know it exists.

Armageddon is different. It's not a world that was meant to see heavy fighting and its population is mostly civilian.

supreme plot armour technology

Their last and best defense.

 Scipio Africanus wrote:
Cadia's entire population is millitary. They can all be mobilized should the need arise. They know this, and they need to (and do) know the enemy they face. The most common enemy is chaos, so they have to know it exists. It is unreasonable to expect them not to know it exists. It's even more unreasonable to kill them because they know it exists.

Armageddon is different. It's not a world that was meant to see heavy fighting and its population is mostly civilian.

To add to this, there is a reason why many Inquisitors go to Cadia when picking up recruits for their henchmen squads. How many times is it that Inquisitors make use of the Cadian Kasrkin for their henchman because they are battle hardened against Chaos? Cadia is a very different Imperial world with full knowledge of what Chaos is.

Let's not forget that Armageddon was visited by a primarch! Cadia didn't have that ''honor'' yet.

Yeah but Cadia is right next to the Eye and was at least visited by Failbadon and his Black Legion on more than one occasion.

 Envihon wrote:
Yeah but Cadia is right next to the Eye and was at least visited by Failbadon and his Black Legion on more than one occasion.

Its Abaddabbadoodons favourite holiday resort. Butlins for the Black Legion.

Ironclad Warlord wrote:
Given what happened to the defenders of Armageddon after a relatively limited exposure to chaos i can't imagine that the Cadians will be spared with Erebus doing dark reituals and summoning demons. Oh and they've probably also figured out that the stuff about the fallen angels and traitor primarchs are far more than a myth.

"What happened to the defenders of Armageddon" was in the aftermath of a gigantic daemonic summoning.

Cadia, while at the Eye of Terror, has not had something that extreme yet.

They're screwed so long as the plot advances. Until then, they're fine, because the timeline has been frozen stiff for over to fething decades.

As seen in the book Exile: Ahriman, Cadia regularly sends out starships not only near the eye but INTO the eye to gather information on the forces of chaos. They are perhaps the most educated force in the IoM about chaos short of the Grey Knights.

 changerofways wrote:
As seen in the book Exile: Ahriman, Cadia regularly sends out starships not only near the eye but INTO the eye to gather information on the forces of chaos. They are perhaps the most educated force in the IoM about chaos short of the Grey Knights.

And they should be, if they want to have any chance of keeping Chaos at bay.

As long as the Necron pylons stay activated the Cadians will be spared the worst of the incursion. Abbaddon cannot bring forth his greater daemonic allies and therefore the Cadians will not be exposed to the same degree as the citizens of Armageddon.

Worry not, the Black Legion will open their weapon lockers only to find that their guns have been replaced by Emperor class battleships. Which would take some kind of tactical gen-CREEEEEEEEEEED!

Cadia has been visited by a Primarch, Lorgar lead the first Imperial expedition there before the Horus Heresy. In fact it was the cults on Cadia that tipped Lorgar into Chaos in the first place.

 KorPhaeron77 wrote:
Cadia has been visited by a Primarch, Lorgar lead the first Imperial expedition there before the Horus Heresy. In fact it was the cults on Cadia that tipped Lorgar into Chaos in the first place.

I think Lord Spartacus meant Daemon Primarch?

If GW had not rolled back the results of the 13th Black Crusade world-wide campaign, Cadia would already be on the brink of falling....

.... but, of course, GW can't have a villain actually winning, so none of that happened.

If the timeline doesn't advance. Then the plot can't advance. There wouldn't be any need for any new fluff. Or even any fluff sections in any rule books either.

The timeline doesn't advance (and, in fact, sometimes goes backwards). However, with the time frozen at a given moment, there's 10,000 years of history to write. That is why most fluff in the books is about things that have happened already. They serve as illustrations for how different aspects of the setting have worked in the past and how one can expect them to act in the future.

 Psienesis wrote:
If GW had not rolled back the results of the 13th Black Crusade world-wide campaign, Cadia would already be on the brink of falling....

.... but, of course, GW can't have a villain actually winning, so none of that happened.

Except that the Chaos Space Marines got facerolled in Space.

Victory on the ground is pointless when the opposition nukes you from orbit afterwards.

 Kain wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:
If GW had not rolled back the results of the 13th Black Crusade world-wide campaign, Cadia would already be on the brink of falling....

.... but, of course, GW can't have a villain actually winning, so none of that happened.

Except that the Chaos Space Marines got facerolled in Space.

Victory on the ground is pointless when the opposition nukes you from orbit afterwards.

The Pylons were destroyed, the Eye of Terror was wide open, with Chaos fleets flying out of it every which way. The tactical value of Cadia was gone, so what happens on Cadia after that point is, frankly, irrelevant.

Also, from the reports the IoM did not control the space immediately around Cadia, it controlled the in-system space. Whether they had the power to take on the Chaos Fleet around Cadia, when a bunch of other Chaos Fleets were busy doing their thing in the rest of the Imperium is something we'll never know.

In the end, Team Disorder played a much better, much smarter game than Team Order (especially the Imperial armies) and figured out how to win much faster. As a result, they won.

Here's how it went:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/392010.page

And the official word:
http://redelf.narod.ru/w40k/eyeofterror/death_by_thousand_cuts.html

 Psienesis wrote:

 Kain wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:
If GW had not rolled back the results of the 13th Black Crusade world-wide campaign, Cadia would already be on the brink of falling....

.... but, of course, GW can't have a villain actually winning, so none of that happened.

Except that the Chaos Space Marines got facerolled in Space.

Victory on the ground is pointless when the opposition nukes you from orbit afterwards.

The Pylons were destroyed, the Eye of Terror was wide open, with Chaos fleets flying out of it every which way. The tactical value of Cadia was gone, so what happens on Cadia after that point is, frankly, irrelevant.

Also, from the reports the IoM did not control the space immediately around Cadia, it controlled the in-system space. Whether they had the power to take on the Chaos Fleet around Cadia, when a bunch of other Chaos Fleets were busy doing their thing in the rest of the Imperium is something we'll never know.

In the end, Team Disorder played a much better, much smarter game than Team Order (especially the Imperial armies) and figured out how to win much faster. As a result, they won.

Here's how it went:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/392010.page

And the official word:
http://redelf.narod.ru/w40k/eyeofterror/death_by_thousand_cuts.html

Chaos lacks military-industrial capacity which is why it always has to make do with less and inferior equipment and is part of the reason why Chaos Space Marines seem to get slaughtered in fluff much more easily than loyalist marines.

Much like Germany, any initial thrust will eventually give way to overwhelming materiel and manpower advantages and eventually be rolled back.

The threat of chaos is in subversion and the threat of spilling out daemons, militarily speaking the traitor legions and regiments are vastly outnumbered and outgunned and they know it. They don't have to build up for black crusades and scrape from the bottom of the barrel to launch offensives that the Imperium or Orks can launch casually by choice.

Not to mention, Chaos' lackluster performance in the Gothic war demonstrates a serious weakness in it's space doctrine.

So long as the forces of Order can destroy the fleets of Chaos, it's armies can be as big and bad as they want but they aren't going anywhere.

But the Imperium cannot assail the eye of Terror and Maelstrom due to their reality defying natures. So the eternal stalemate is maintained and nothing progresses.

Cool story, bro.

 Psienesis wrote:
Cool story, bro.

Concession accepted.

 Kain wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:
If GW had not rolled back the results of the 13th Black Crusade world-wide campaign, Cadia would already be on the brink of falling....

.... but, of course, GW can't have a villain actually winning, so none of that happened.

Except that the Chaos Space Marines got facerolled in Space.

Victory on the ground is pointless when the opposition nukes you from orbit afterwards.

It wasn't that simple. That was not only after the fluff got altered from the victory Chaos got to a lesser victory. Along with that, if memory serves me they had the space around the planet. Just didn't have it for the solar system (although they had blasted many of the planets already anyways so so much for that).

 StarTrotter wrote:

 Kain wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:
If GW had not rolled back the results of the 13th Black Crusade world-wide campaign, Cadia would already be on the brink of falling....

.... but, of course, GW can't have a villain actually winning, so none of that happened.

Except that the Chaos Space Marines got facerolled in Space.

Victory on the ground is pointless when the opposition nukes you from orbit afterwards.

It wasn't that simple. That was not only after the fluff got altered from the victory Chaos got to a lesser victory. Along with that, if memory serves me they had the space around the planet. Just didn't have it for the solar system (although they had blasted many of the planets already anyways so so much for that).

See above for why I'm skeptical that Chaos would make any gains that won't be reversed to return to the eternal stalemate and status quo.

Nobody makes any real advances anymore.

Hive fleet arrives, hive fleet gets tar pitted somewhere, changing nothing.

Necron Dynasty wakes up, something or other happens to get them stuck in a morass, thus nothing of value changes.

Orks go waaghin', orks get sent packing.

Eldar do something, turns out it was maintaining the status quo.

Tau expand, nobody cares.

Chaos goes crusading, chaos gets rolled back.

Imperium gets crusading, Imperium gets stuck midway through and has to call off the damn thing when something else happens.

Nobody wins.

The ultimate bleakness of 40k is that everything everyone does, from the mightiest Chaos god to the lowliest Grot, is entirely and utterly futile and pointless.

 Kain wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:

 Kain wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:
If GW had not rolled back the results of the 13th Black Crusade world-wide campaign, Cadia would already be on the brink of falling....

.... but, of course, GW can't have a villain actually winning, so none of that happened.

Except that the Chaos Space Marines got facerolled in Space.

Victory on the ground is pointless when the opposition nukes you from orbit afterwards.

The Pylons were destroyed, the Eye of Terror was wide open, with Chaos fleets flying out of it every which way. The tactical value of Cadia was gone, so what happens on Cadia after that point is, frankly, irrelevant.

Also, from the reports the IoM did not control the space immediately around Cadia, it controlled the in-system space. Whether they had the power to take on the Chaos Fleet around Cadia, when a bunch of other Chaos Fleets were busy doing their thing in the rest of the Imperium is something we'll never know.

In the end, Team Disorder played a much better, much smarter game than Team Order (especially the Imperial armies) and figured out how to win much faster. As a result, they won.

Here's how it went:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/392010.page

And the official word:
http://redelf.narod.ru/w40k/eyeofterror/death_by_thousand_cuts.html

Chaos lacks military-industrial capacity which is why it always has to make do with less and inferior equipment and is part of the reason why Chaos Space Marines seem to get slaughtered in fluff much more easily than loyalist marines.

Much like Germany, any initial thrust will eventually give way to overwhelming materiel and manpower advantages and eventually be rolled back.

The threat of chaos is in subversion and the threat of spilling out daemons, militarily speaking the traitor legions and regiments are vastly outnumbered and outgunned and they know it. They don't have to build up for black crusades and scrape from the bottom of the barrel to launch offensives that the Imperium or Orks can launch casually by choice.

Not to mention, Chaos' lackluster performance in the Gothic war demonstrates a serious weakness in it's space doctrine.

So long as the forces of Order can destroy the fleets of Chaos, it's armies can be as big and bad as they want but they aren't going anywhere.

But the Imperium cannot assail the eye of Terror and Maelstrom due to their reality defying natures. So the eternal stalemate is maintained and nothing progresses.

No it's really not even this. Simply put, CSM die because they aren't Imperial. Imperial factions are the main characters and so they die in droves. It's not really surprising, it's just how it goes. Along with that, Chaos is odd in that it does have industrial power, its just unevenly spread. On one hand, they have a massive number of CHAOS mechanicus members and many a forgeowrld. Abaddon, despite people constantly insulting him as Failbaddon, is actually successful in mobilizing these assaults. It would seem ludicrous that he wouldn't inscript the labor of the forge worlds. Along with that, if we want to talk about inferior tech, SM are more prone for higher ranking dudes to apparently wear inferior armour as a symbol of rank and pride.

Yeah its like Germany if they could strike pretty randomly, had the support of daemons, and had torn the pylons which were the only real things holding the Eye of Terror back

And yes, chaos is outnumbered. But also keep in mind that there is still Armageddon going on, ork raids, Eldar ambushes, Dark Eldar pilfering, increasing numbers of Necrons awakening, Tau expansionists, Tyranids invading, and the Chaos members not fighting alongside Abaddon are probably maximizing on their attempts to mobilize. Also it would likely take Imperial forces longer to reach. Finally, at least in current fluff, the goal is to spread the warp thus making it difficult for the enemies to fight them.

In short, Chaos is varied from scavengers to owners of forge worlds so the armor and technology they own is variable. Also they have a black fortress I think still and they had one that was possessed b slaanesh to capture the Eldar. Finally, Abaddon has had victories in space as well so it's not an instant GG in space (although he really needs to learn shoving guns on a space ship that can move at the speed of a snail is a bad idea)


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kain wrote:

 StarTrotter wrote:

 Kain wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:
If GW had not rolled back the results of the 13th Black Crusade world-wide campaign, Cadia would already be on the brink of falling....

.... but, of course, GW can't have a villain actually winning, so none of that happened.

Except that the Chaos Space Marines got facerolled in Space.

Victory on the ground is pointless when the opposition nukes you from orbit afterwards.

It wasn't that simple. That was not only after the fluff got altered from the victory Chaos got to a lesser victory. Along with that, if memory serves me they had the space around the planet. Just didn't have it for the solar system (although they had blasted many of the planets already anyways so so much for that).

See above for why I'm skeptical that Chaos would make any gains that won't be reversed to return to the eternal stalemate and status quo.

Nobody makes any real advances anymore.

Hive fleet arrives, hive fleet gets tar pitted somewhere, changing nothing.

Necron Dynasty wakes up, something or other happens to get them stuck in a morass, thus nothing of value changes.

Orks go waaghin', orks get sent packing.

Eldar do something, turns out it was maintaining the status quo.

Tau expand, nobody cares.

Chaos goes crusading, chaos gets rolled back.

Imperium gets crusading, Imperium gets stuck midway through and has to call off the damn thing when something else happens.

Nobody wins.

The ultimate bleakness of 40k is that everything everyone does, from the mightiest Chaos god to the lowliest Grot, is entirely and utterly futile and pointless.

Oh yeah, you are correct in that nothing will ever progress. That's how it will always be. Chaos advances to actually start to show the ends of time? Well let's roll it back to right before it happens and make it even more dramatic. Let's make sure the imperium has missing primarchs and rumours of healing primarchs not to mention whatever will happen to the Emperor if he were finally to die. The plot will never advance so its not like it really matters all that much. If Chaos advances, they'll get bogged down by this this or this, if Necrons awaken they'll be too busy fighting nids, nids will be too busy fighting necrons, tau's expansions will struggle when somebody glances, etc. That's quite true but that's really in the end because this is a setting and not really a story and so it will never progress much past the 41st millenia.

 Kain wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:
Cool story, bro.

Concession accepted.

It's not a concession. Simply that I have neither the time nor the inclination to point out why you are wrong in every point, when I provided you with the resources that indicate how wrong you are.

But you can go on comparing Evil Magical Space Soldiers to an... industrialized European nation in the 21st century that... possesses a competent, modern military force... really, I have no idea where you were going with that. Are you trying to Godwin the thread?

the 13th black crusade campaign was IMHO an utterly dumb decision on GW's part and something they reckongize. they've been not saying it but trying to move around it ever since.
you don't put the very future of your setting in the hands of your players because more often then not the side you figured would win... doesn't.