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Hundred dolla challenge match!! JY2 calls Reecius out for the $100 dollar prize, his Nids vs. Reecius' Taudar. Can he do it?

Can't wait to see how this turns out... go go team Tyranids!

Great Batrep as always man.

Edited to put comments in spoiler field.

I was actually surprised the game came as close as it did. I thought it was going to be an easy win for Tau.

Really though it didn't look that fun though. The nids had a huge disadvantage in that table and were just completely outranged. Every turn broke down to 1.) Tau shoot or 2.) Nids hide.

@ Savage Convoy: Maybe not fun for everyone. But it's the nail bitingly tactical games that are the most interesting and immersive for me. Granted they're not always as fun to watch as a game where dozens of minis are lifted of the table every turn, but they're fun for the people playing them.

Personally, I thought that was a classy bat-rep. I learned more from watching that particular battle-rep than I have from any one of a half-dozen slaughter-fest bat reps.

Edited twice for spelling.

Very well played, guys. Too bad about that last roll!

The bugs are viable. They're just going to be one of those armies where a few mistakes have the potential to make it really hard to pull back that win.

Loving all these Tyranid batreps!

Man. Just seeing what taudar can bring at 1750 is enough to make me question if jy2 can win.

Alas, he pulled it off!

This is an example of why I believe winning in 40k is far more reliant on the player than it is with list hammering. Well played Jim I was really rooting for you to pull this one out so that Jeff and Frankie can endlessly torment Reece by never letting him live that down. Excellent batrep I really enjoyed this one!

1750 Hive Fleet Pandora

Flyrant - Wings, 2xTL-Brainleech Devourers
Flyrant - Wings, 2xTL-Brainleech Devourers

1x Venomthrope
1x Zoanthrope

Tervigon
30x Termagants
10x Termagants

23x Gargoyles
7x Raveners

2x Biovores
2x Dakkafexes

Bastion


About my list:
Originally, I was thinking about bringing a super-optimized Tyranid spam list. However, I finally decided to bring just a balanced and fast Tyranid list. This was mainly because of 2 main reasons:

1. I only wanted to play with the models that I had. I didn't want to proxy models that I didn't have. A super-optimized list would have required me to bring a lot of models that I didn't own.

2. I really didn't want this to be a battle between just the lists. Well, it is a battle between lists, but it is more a battle between the synergies of the list rather than the units themselves. More importantly, this is a battle between the generals. If I can win this battle, it's going to mainly be from the synergies of the list and my skills as a tactician rather than just running a list "that plays itself". Basically, it's going to take a lot of skill to make this list work, especially against Tau, and I was going to enjoy the challenge.

So now why raveners and gargoyles? We've discussed in depth how much better carnifexes and biovores were and how good the Heavy Support slots were, so why didn't I just fill up my Heavies with as many units there as possible? The answer is that I wanted a very fast army with some resiliency as well. That's why I went more heavy with the Fast Attack units. Raveners and gargoyles - especially the raveners - are really fast. They both complement my flyrants very well IMO. They also form a hammer and anvil combination. Gargoyles are the anvil and will help lock up units. The raveners are the hammer unit. They are the unit that will come in and wreck sh*t. In addition, you're talking about 44 wounds between the 2 units. With cover and if only I could have gotten Catalyst, they can actually be quite resilient.

They also help me with my strategy of Positional Dominance. Because of their speed, I use them (and the flyrants) to control my opponent's movements. Basically, I use them to keep my opponent off of the objectives so that I can get onto them. This gives me an inherent advantage, even if slightly, in that I already have the objectives and my opponent will have to be the one to have to shift me off of them. Thus, I actually don't have to play as aggressively as I normally do. Against an ultra-shooty army like Tau, I can actually sit back and dare him to come towards me. And if he does, I have the fast units that can make him pay, both with assault and with my shooting.


Pre-game Analysis:
This is going to be even more of an uphill battle than I had thought. Why?

1. No Catalyst. Against super-shooty armies like Tau or mechdar, you need Catalyst. It's what will give you a chance against them, because you're not going to be getting cover. With 2 flyrants and 2 other psykers, I actually had a very good chance to get at least 1 Catalyst. Well, I didn't.

2. Hammer & Anvil. Against a shooty army, this is perhaps the the worst deployment type for me. Although I had a fast army, I had nothing that can get really deep into my opponent's deployment zone. No trygons or mawlocs to deploy into his backfield to force him to deal with. No other flyers except for my flyrants. Thus, if I had advance, most likely my bugs are going to get shot down. Flyers don't mean that much to my opponent's army, not with all the twin-linking, skyfire and markerlights he had in his army.

3. My opponent was going 1st. That means he will get the alpha-strike.

4. Anti-air. His anti-air shooting was just too good. Both riptides have skyfire, he's got a quad-guns and almost all his shooters will be twin-linked. Commander will twin-link 1 riptide. Farseer will guide/prescience the other riptide and wraithknight. Broadsides themselves are already twin-linked. Then he's got the pathfinders which can help to increase the BS of his shapshots. Without Catalyst, my flyrants wouldn't even last 1 turn out in the open. Heck, he actually have the firepower to take out both flyrants in just 1 turn of shooting.

5. My list is balanced, but it isn't particularly optimized. Then again, I prefered to go with what I've got as opposed to what I really wanted.


However, it is not all doom & gloom. Despite a big mountain to climb, I have a few advantages:

1. Good terrain. Terrain was favorable to tyranids, though most of the terrain was quite far away from my opponent. The game would probably not even been this close if not for the central LOS-blocking terrain.

2. I'm going 2nd. I have the final say with regards to the objectives.

3. I'm hoping Reece will under-estimate my tyranids. I think I can surprise him with my gameplay. That sometimes happens when one person thinks that there is too big a rift between 2 armies. I know I've done it before also, under-estimating my opponent because I thought it would be an easy win and then losing because either he out-played me or because of a few bad rolls.

4. Synapse. It's not as big a crutch as most would think, especially if you do it right. So far in all my games that I've played, I've had no problems with Synapse. That is also why the bastion is sooooo good. 1 zoanthrope either inside or behind the bastion is all you really need.


So my prediction is that it will be an extremely tough battle for my bugs. This may even be tougher than Tyranids vs Venom-spam of yesterday's Tyranids, but it is still a winnable game for me. Now I won't guarantee a win for my bugs, but I will guarantee you that I will give my opponent, no matter who he is or what army he is running, a competitive game.



Coming up later.....Analysis of the Game and my Strategy.

Thanks Jy2. Really appreciate your adding your usual thoughts and analysis to this report.

This game was not even close. JY2 played as good of a game that he could, and Reese was caught napping and that is what made it seem close.


That being said I am thinking about coming up next weekend to get my $100,

I need to see if I can borrow some models though,

 Iechine wrote:
Great Batrep as always man.

Spoiler:

I'm convinced that Nid lists like this just dont work, I feel like its a requirement to have Mawlocs and Trygons, as well as outflankers because we are just so slow now. That list seemed suicidal and it was.

My list is still a Work-in-progress. At this stage, it is more experimental than anything else and I will be evolving it over time. I will most likely be using mawlocs, trygons and probably outflankers as well in future games.

 LeadLegion wrote:

Spoiler:

WOW! Okay Jim. You might not actually have won! But damn you should have. And you managed that without Catalyst! Granted it wasn't what some folks would call a "traditional game" and no doubt we're gonna get some whingers saying "that's wasn't a proper game, it proves nothing".

But me? I'm about 70% there. I only need to see a little bit more before I start putting cash down on a Nid army

@ Iechine: Yes, but this game is a perfect example of how a good player with a bit of savvy can win a game by playing to the missions even with a not very optimised list. Imagine what he could have done with some tunnelers but bear in mind that Mawlocs and Trygons are heavy support choices. In this particular case, bringing those to the table might have cost JY2 the game regardless by giving away points. Then again, the might have captured a few objectives for him but I doubt they would have survived.

Edited to put comments in spoiler field.

It was a very tough game for my bugs with some very strong handicaps against them. But what I really like about this game was that tactics was actually a much bigger part of the game than the list. It was probably 66% strategy and only 33% list, which made it all the more challenging. And despite the result, I came out of this game very satisfied with the performance of my bugs (I'm sure Reece felt the same way as well). A 1/3 chance to win in the end due to a calculated strategy on my part is a million times better and my chances of winning in a head-on battle against the likes of Taudar under the conditions that I was forced to play in.

 Savageconvoy wrote:
I was actually surprised the game came as close as it did. I thought it was going to be an easy win for Tau.

Really though it didn't look that fun though. The nids had a huge disadvantage in that table and were just completely outranged. Every turn broke down to 1.) Tau shoot or 2.) Nids hide.

Well, this game I was actually playing for the win and not for the cinematic glory. I can see how this would appear boring to many, but if you study it a little more closely, there were a lot of tactical nuances to the game that both Reece and I played that actually made it as tense as a cat-&-mouse game, at least to us.

Despite the relative "inaction" of the game, it was actually quite a tense game for the both of us.

 LeadLegion wrote:
@ Savage Convoy: Maybe not fun for everyone. But it's the nail bitingly tactical games that are the most interesting and immersive for me. Granted they're not always as fun to watch as a game where dozens of minis are lifted of the table every turn, but they're fun for the people playing them.

Personally, I thought that was a classy bat-rep. I learned more from watching that particular battle-rep than I have from any one of a half-dozen slaughter-fest bat reps.

Edited twice for spelling.

Thanks, and very well said. It was more of a psychological game between Reece and I, which actually made it very tense and exciting to us.

SBG wrote:
Very well played, guys. Too bad about that last roll!

The bugs are viable. They're just going to be one of those armies where a few mistakes have the potential to make it really hard to pull back that win.

Loving all these Tyranid batreps!

They remind me a lot about 3rd Edition Daemonhunters (the edition before the current Grey Knights). It was a very challenging army to play. It was also much less forgiving than most of the other armies, but man, it was just so much more rewarding when you can win with them than when you win with, say, Tau, Eldar, Necrons or any of the other really good (and easier-to-play) armies.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 McNinja wrote:
Man. Just seeing what taudar can bring at 1750 is enough to make me question if jy2 can win.

Alas, he pulled it off!

I didn't actually win, but I did score a moral victory in Reece's eyes.

 y0disisray wrote:
This is an example of why I believe winning in 40k is far more reliant on the player than it is with list hammering. Well played Jim I was really rooting for you to pull this one out so that Jeff and Frankie can endlessly torment Reece by never letting him live that down. Excellent batrep I really enjoyed this one!

I think I could have won much more easily if Reece were playing anything other than Taudar....but I didn't really want the boxed sets. I wanted to take his lunch money instead.

 LeadLegion wrote:
Thanks Jy2. Really appreciate your adding your usual thoughts and analysis to this report.

My pleasure!

 Blackmoor wrote:
This game was not even close. JY2 played as good of a game that he could, and Reese was caught napping and that is what made it seem close.


That being said I am thinking about coming up next weekend to get my $100,

I need to see if I can borrow some models though,

Don't under-estimate my play. I did the best that I could in what were some really adverse conditions for me. My strategy to play for Turn 5 wasn't a coincidence. Rather, it was actually a calculated strategy on my part. A 1/3 chance to win it on Turn 5 is a million times better than a suicidal attempt to take on his army head-on. Thus, I wasn’t kidding when I said I was playing for Turn 5. It was a gamble, but it was also my best chance at winning in what would have been an otherwise lopsided game in favor of Taudar.

Great match!

Good Batrep, thank you.

Great looking TauDar - Is there anyway to buy some raffle tickets to win that army if your not going to LVO?

Thanks

 jy2 wrote:

 Blackmoor wrote:
This game was not even close. JY2 played as good of a game that he could, and Reese was caught napping and that is what made it seem close.


That being said I am thinking about coming up next weekend to get my $100,

I need to see if I can borrow some models though,

Don't under-estimate my play. I did the best that I could in what were some really adverse conditions for me. My strategy to play for Turn 5 wasn't a coincidence. Rather, it was actually a calculated strategy on my part. A 1/3 chance to win it on Turn 5 is a million times better than a suicidal attempt to take on his army head-on. Thus, I wasn’t kidding when I said I was playing for Turn 5. It was a gamble, but it was also my best chance at winning in what would have been an otherwise lopsided game in favor of Taudar.

I did not underestimate your play. When faced with an overwhelming amount of firepower you have to play the mission. You did as best as you could with what you had, and what you were up against.

I am thinking about taking Tyraninds to the LVO because I do not want to be another Eldar douche-bag, and I am not taking it too seriously. I am there to have some fun and hang out.

And are you up for a game next weekend?

Sure.

BTW, I didn't know that you had a bug army. You can borrow units from Reece's army to challenge him with them.

Fun bat rep, thanks Reece and jy2!

Seemed like the Carnifexes didn't do much but get shot (one killed a few jetbikes, I think). That was a little discouraging. In this kind of list, would you take 2 Mawlocs instead next time, or will you sick with the Fexes?

 jy2 wrote:
Sure.

BTW, I didn't know that you had a bug army. You can borrow units from Reece's army to challenge him with them.

Yup I do. I even won the Golden Gargant with it up at Kubla Con around 2006 when it was a 2 day GT.

I have not played it since early 4th edition and have been meaning to sell it but I have never gotten around to it. I am missing the models that have come out in 5th edition and 6th (think Hive Guard, Tervigons and Tyrgons) so it needs updating.

Good job Jim.

Jim played that mission the best he could have, but it really is telling that it took Reece "napping" and second turn and he STILL only had a 1/3 chance to win.


Again, not undermining your play jy2 but just illustrating how much of a disparity there really is between the two.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 y0disisray wrote:
This is an example of why I believe winning in 40k is far more reliant on the player than it is with list hammering. Well played Jim I was really rooting for you to pull this one out so that Jeff and Frankie can endlessly torment Reece by never letting him live that down. Excellent batrep I really enjoyed this one!

Yes and no. The better player lost here. Being the better player with an optimized list from a different yet sadly brand new army and all your looking at is a 33% chance on turn 5 or definite defeat? Props to jim for getting as much luster outta that turd as he did but this is just telling of the state of 40k currently.

"My list is still a Work-in-progress. At this stage, it is more experimental than anything else and I will be evolving it over time. I will most likely be using mawlocs, trygons and probably outflankers as well in future games."

I think outflanking could make a big difference in this type of deployment—it will give you some disruption units to take the heat off the rest of your army and buy some time to move in to key positions... Just need the right balance.

Very well played!

Jy2,

Great job playing to the mission. I have a question: Ever thought about dumping one of your Flyrants? I know they are the best unit in the codex, but you could use the points for more ranged Heavy supports like a mawloc, exocrine, or a tyrannofex. And you could fit another Zoanthrope.

The Ravagers seemed disappointing. What about shrikes instead?

Thanks again for all this experimentation.

 Dozer Blades wrote:
"My list is still a Work-in-progress. At this stage, it is more experimental than anything else and I will be evolving it over time. I will most likely be using mawlocs, trygons and probably outflankers as well in future games."

I think outflanking could make a big difference in this type of deployment—it will give you some disruption units to take the heat off the rest of your army and buy some time to move in to key positions... Just need the right balance.

Very well played!

Totally agreed, this game really opened my eyes to the need for some disruption units like that. And I do think the raveners weren't worth it here. Very helpful to see this all in action.

Well played JY2 but I have to say i was not a fan of the Taudar build. I think it would be a worse match-up against Eldau. That middle piece of terrain was huge for keeping you alive. I originally questioned you leaving the board with your big guys. Well played though and some decent luck to make it as close as you did.

Jy2, why go for the Relic turn 5? I feel like it would have been better as a turn 6 gamble and would've kept the Tervigon safe. Instead of playing for a major turn 5 win, you'd be playing for a minor turn 5 win and the chance to get a turn 6 win if you could kill a riptide and grab the relic, or cause a FW squad to fall back with the Biovores. I just think the game couldve gone another turn, even if Taudar had a major advantage at that point.

Edit: Riptides aren't heavy, ignore that part.

I think this game really highlights the shortcomings of Tyranids in terms of a total lack of ranged firepower and a lack of speed/resiliency. I understand Nids are not supposed to be a shooty army like Tau but you can only do so much when you face the proposition of just removing buckets of your army due to decent quantities of cover ignoring firepower.

When Tyranids are forced to withstand what Tau and Eldar can dish out, the Hivemind might as well go back home and watch "As the imperium turns" on daytime TV...

I think the only way to do it is have enough units that pose an immediate treat like maybe 40 infiltrating stealers followed by fasting units like gargoyles/shrikes/flyrants and a continual stream of things to drown your opponent in wounds... Though, like I said, I think Tau and Eldar have the firepower to do enough damage each turn to destroy the Nids :(.

If the "ignores cover" rule wasn't so prevalent in 40k ATM the nid codex would be fine IMO (aside from some minor issues but meh).

That was an extremely well played game. You really deserved that 1 or 2 Jy2.

Thanks to both of you for a very nice tactical game. Definitely worth watching.

Reece sorry to say I was definitely hoping Jy2 would come out 100 usd richer.

Jy2 how much do you think your more optimized list would have helped in this match?

This is the reason that I like 40k. Friends competing hard against each other and a victor emerging who acknowledges a lucky win. One of the more exciting reports I've seen for how little happened.

You can sum it up as "Hubris vs Cunning"

Really enjoyed it. Thanks both. See you in Vegas.

Great game and great advert for what Los blocking terrain brings to the game. The problem is unless tournaments are clear upfront about what you can expect from their terrain taking nids is a risk against the big hitters imo.