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 ChaoticMind wrote:

 Azazelx wrote:

 ChaoticMind wrote:

They want to de-retcon the squats. Problem is you need a slightly silly game to do that and GoA, Warpath, and Deadzone are serious settings. They work in Dreadball because it is fantasy football where every team has a shtick.

I don't see squats as needing a silly game. In any case, Warpath/Deadzone already has space orcs and dancing space goblins.

I meant the old squats style that wouldn't bat an eye at ork rock-stars as a unit. The bikes, dwarfs, burrowing tanks Etc. can stay but to fit they need to drop the over the top style GW had at the time and instead be a "new" concept from the ground up, not just Squats / Dwarfs in Spaaaace.

Original RT-era Squats were actually pretty well not over the top. Even the later-RT things on the outlier like Living Ancestors and Hearthguard in egg-armour weren't too bad. I'd suggest the most over-the-top aspect of the old Squats was the egg-armour. The rest of them were pretty grounded, and not overly-"dwarfs in spaaaace" anyway - it looked like that's where they were going to take them in 2nd Ed before they got canned, but the RT-stuff was pretty sober and grounded. Much less cartoony than the Orks turned in 2nd ed onwards. Check out the Red Book (Warhammer 40k Compendium 1989). Clannish Miners and Biker-engineer-grease monkeys isn't exactly on a par with Goff Rokkerz and <fill in the blank> Squigs.

I never played EPIC, but their vision of Squats didn't seem ridiculous, either.

And as TechMarine1 mentioned (but I forgot) - Veer'Myn/Skaven in SPAAAAACE don't really make the Warpath Universe more serious. Considering their 40k analogues seem to be Genestealers, they seem even less so...


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 Zweischneid wrote:
[
There was far too much high-flying rhetoric surrounding the GoA Kickstarter.

That said, it is (I think) legitimate to use Kickstarter to "test" the demand for a game, rather than sinking your own life savings into a dud. Just need to avoid all that "Kickstarter-like-it-was-truly-meant-to-be-BS", which made them (Rick?) look bitter not only towards GW, but also bitter towards people having success on Kickstarter.

I'll agree with you on this. KS is what it is. High horses have really no point. I'd much rather pay to help fund the production on a project that the creators have done as much as they can to turn into a reality by themselves - like Dreamforge, DeadZone, Zombicide, Red Box's latest, Secret Weapon Tables, etc than pay a year or more's wages for someone to develop a ruleset/background/etc - and I don't find the latter any more noble than the former.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kilkrazy wrote:
If the furry fans want a furry SF faction they should make a Kickstarter to build one. Frankly I am tempted to do it myself because it could make some decent money and it would be brilliant to annoy all the anal anti-furry players in GW-land and so on.

I don't know what the fuss is about, really. In the good old days we used to play Traveller with the Vargr and Aslan without batting an eye at "furryism".

The internet happened, and anthromorphic animals of all kinds outside of Disney/WB cartoons and their ilk became inextricably linked with actual furries. And yiffing.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Gallahad wrote:


I mean, somebody has to be looking at what Mark has done with the Dreamforge Games Eisenkern, and saying "Hey! There is a market for alternative sci-fi miniatures in injection plastic!" It has always puzzled me that the historical market is packet with true plastic kits from a variety of manufacturers (Fireforge, Perry, Conquest, Gripping Beast, Victrix, etc.) but sci-fi has largely been neglected. The sci-fi market for miniatures gaming has to be 10X the size of the market for historicals.

As others have said, the current showing for Gates of Antares is pretty poor.

I wonder why Sci-Fi is always taken to be so proprietary, especially compared to historicals. I mean, I know that you can't say claim the ECW or WWII as "your IP" (even though Battlefront Tried!), but outside of Battlefront's attempts, a 15mm PzIV is a 15mm PzIV and plays in whatever game you're playing. Same with a Renaissance Pikeman or a Spartan Phalanx. Yet all the rules developers and miniature designers seem content and accepting that people will use whichever figures with whichever ruleset they like. Fantasy is somewhat in the same vein, with WFB obviously being the big dog and highly invested in their own models, but Mantic and the other smaller fantasy rulesets mostly seem to understand that we'l play with the figures we like. But then we get into sci-fi, where.. I dunno. But the companies all seem to want to have their own universes that don't really fit others' figures in as much. Mantic again have allowed for people's existing Imperial Guard and Ork armies, but that feels more like wanting to sell their figures for use as 40k-proxies - which is the big "except-for" in the room on this topic.

I guess what I'm getting at here is that GoA and others want to sell rules in order to sell their specific models - even when their own models are years away. Eisenkern and even Mantic's Corporation come to mind as "sci-fi humans" that would fit into the Warpath or GoA universe reasonably easily, so why not make them "official proxies" for an undeveloped faction. LIkewise with Eisenkern for Warpath/DeadZone.

I dunno if my message is clear - it feels a little muddled, but it's hot and I'm tired. I guess I'm just thinking out loud about how nice it would be to see producers of non-historicals, and sci-fi in particular working together a little more rather then trying to put up fences around their IP like GW do (except that almost all of them seem to be happy to make not-40k models..)

Speaking of GWAR and space rats...

The members of GWAR used to play 40k at one of my FLGS. One of the members had a space Skaven force he converted to be riding skateboards.

 Azazelx wrote:
I wonder why Sci-Fi is always taken to be so proprietary, especially compared to historicals. I mean, I know that you can't say claim the ECW or WWII as "your IP" (even though Battlefront Tried!), but outside of Battlefront's attempts, a 15mm PzIV is a 15mm PzIV and plays in whatever game you're playing. Same with a Renaissance Pikeman or a Spartan Phalanx. Yet all the rules developers and miniature designers seem content and accepting that people will use whichever figures with whichever ruleset they like. Fantasy is somewhat in the same vein, with WFB obviously being the big dog and highly invested in their own models, but Mantic and the other smaller fantasy rulesets mostly seem to understand that we'l play with the figures we like. But then we get into sci-fi, where.. I dunno. But the companies all seem to want to have their own universes that don't really fit others' figures in as much. Mantic again have allowed for people's existing Imperial Guard and Ork armies, but that feels more like wanting to sell their figures for use as 40k-proxies - which is the big "except-for" in the room on this topic.

I guess what I'm getting at here is that GoA and others want to sell rules in order to sell their specific models - even when their own models are years away. Eisenkern and even Mantic's Corporation come to mind as "sci-fi humans" that would fit into the Warpath or GoA universe reasonably easily, so why not make them "official proxies" for an undeveloped faction. LIkewise with Eisenkern for Warpath/DeadZone.

I dunno if my message is clear - it feels a little muddled, but it's hot and I'm tired. I guess I'm just thinking out loud about how nice it would be to see producers of non-historicals, and sci-fi in particular working together a little more rather then trying to put up fences around their IP like GW do (except that almost all of them seem to be happy to make not-40k models..)

I think part of it is that each manufacturer wants the best seat in the house: Earth. If you're making a World War II game there's some balance between "America, feth yeah!" and the German's aesthetics, and Fantasy could have balance between the Empire and Bretonnia, but generally sci-fi has the Terran government, and those other guys.

The other is that Sci-fi diverges more. Historicals are a straitjacket, and anything outside the norm might as well not exist. Fantasy is more free and you do sometimes see something interesting (like Eberron's dinosaur-riding halflings), but apart from the elves it still tends to hit the same notes. But Sci-Fi... you can get anything from Starship Troopers' Mobile Infantry to Star Trek's redshirts to Stargate's modern Special Forces. Put a redshirt in his longjohns with an unergonomic pistol next to the rocket-jumping, nuke-throwing tank that is a Mobile Infantryman and things start to look silly.

A single, unified ruleset would be a good thing if done right, and you could always throw in some handwaving nonsense about multiverses and wormholes, but that will always be a fragile thing - it's only a matter of time before some dumbass fanboy tries to write a codex presenting the redshirts as being so much better than the longjohn-wearing, pistol-wielding mooks they are.

 judgedoug wrote:
Speaking of GWAR and space rats...

The members of GWAR used to play 40k at one of my FLGS. One of the members had a space Skaven force he converted to be riding skateboards.

They sold the GWAR game there, as well.


Miss that game.

The new preview of the Algoryn look great and are exactly what I want for a generic sci fi alien bipedal race - good Star Trek DS9 style alien makeup with cool armor and guns.

The Algoryn look much, much better than the Boromites. But then, that's not saying much.

The Algoryn look... pretty good, actually.



More at link. One thing that... well, concerns is probably the wrong word, something that stood out to me is that the Boromites have a very last century, hand-sculpted feel to them, while the Algoryn have the clean, sharp lines of digital design. Of course, we'll have to wait to see what the actual models look like before we know how that actually presents on the tabletop.

Heh, it's funny you mention DS9 Doug, because to me they seem more the inheritors of the Babylon 5 aesthetic of the Narn (perhaps with a bit of Minbari thrown in), not that that's a bad thing!

I'm glad at least one model in that group has an X-sling.

Now those I like; especially the helmets. I wasn't sold on the Boromites but these are a big improvement.

 Alpharius wrote:
I'm glad at least one model in that group has an X-sling.

And a rock. There's just not enough miniatures with their feet resting on rocks.

Just saw these on the warlord forum, really impressed, could easily imagine picking a few of these up, unlike the boromites.

Going by the other images on the warlord forum these look like they could be mutli-part head, arms and torso-legs similar to some of mantics stuff.

Agreed... these are a big improvement.

richred_uk wrote:

 Alpharius wrote:
I'm glad at least one model in that group has an X-sling.

And a rock. There's just not enough miniatures with their feet resting on rocks.

Lol, both comments made me chuckle.

I don't like the helmets, but everything else looks pretty good. It does look like some of the arms are of variable length so hopefully it is just the angle of the render shots.

They remind me of the Turians from Mass Effect.

Boromites were bad and still look bad, the concept and execution is way outdated, the Algoryn are a more realistic approach to what a modern consumer would demand.

Overall GOA has several issues, in all levels, deciding what it wants to be would be the biggest, but trying to be a new 40k should be the last thing it wants.

I feel some factions like the post apocalypse looking humans should be spirited away and center more on an organic modern sci fi look.

I stuck a thread up on the GoA forum regarding miniature materials and got a reply from Rick.

This is still a bit up in the air - if folks want resin models then that is something we can do - although the cost is considerably more than for metal, as you know. The Boromites have been mastered into our regular moulds for spin casting in metal, and we are making production moulds for spin casting sample sets. Unless there is something we can't make in metal, I'm sure we will make everything in metal and might make some models available in resin as well - as we did with Hansa. If the demand is there we will do it

I'd love to do plastics when we are ready for a full release - but this game is going to grow organically - bit at a time - so we're not going to worry about plastics right away. Making the models in metal allows us to try different things, tweak, and basically - if we see something we like or which is really popular more easily explore that by making more metal models relatively quickly. Plastics takes forever to do - and once it's done it's done - and you're stuck with it! 

There may be some things we simply cannot do in metal because they are too big or a shape that doesn't suit metal casting. I am guessing; most vehicles, larger weapons, buildings and terrain.

rick priestley 285 Sun Apr 20, 2008 8:04 am

and somemore info from the newsletter regarding the Algoryns

ALGORYN SPOTTED IN THE NANOSPHERE!

This week I’m very pleased to be able to reveal something of our work-in-progress on our next force for Beyond the Gates of Antares: the Algoryn. At Warlord HQ (otherwise known as the bicycle sheds behind the gas works) we’re all very excited about these, because these are the very first models that have been digitally sculpted for us, rather than produced in the time-honoured method by means of hand, spit and eye (other bodily parts may be involved… also fluids). Hence what we have to show you are 3D computer renders rather than the usual ‘greens’ with which you may be familiar. In other respects, what we have is entirely representative of the final pieces, which will be produced in metal just like our Boromites and other Antarean models.

The Algoryn Prosperate is a league of independent worlds that includes Algoryn colonies as well as affiliated worlds peopled by other pan-human types. The Algoryn are descended from root human types over many generations. They lack hair upon their heads, which are instead covered with crest-like keratinous growths. Similar nodules of keratin form a thick scaly layer upon their exposed flesh. This dense protective layer shields the Algoryn against the harsh rays of the twin suns of Algorya, which periodically bathe the planet in dangerous levels of heat and radiation. With that basic idea in mind we’ve worked to create a distinctive look that combines regular human anatomy with a unique twist, as you can see from these early concept renders.

Yeah, they look like Turians, but with less of a bird focus and more of a reptile one.

Think those latest renders are the most promising thing miniature-wise to come out of this yet!

 legoburner wrote:
How close is Rick to retirement? I remember the GoA outline stating that he wanted something that would fund him through retirement but if retirement is close and it has been a year already, is there a chance this could end up as a bit of a pump and dump from a rules and background perspective?

I suppose it depends if that old 'payment per Space Marine' legend was true.. although if it were, I guess they wouldn't have ever needed a Kickstarter, and we would already be playing with a fully-fleshed out games system

I think affiliating with Warlord Games is probably the best outcome for Gates of Antares.

I mean, it's more of labor of love thing for Rick Priestley, isn't it? He is trying to recapture the spirit of Rogue Trader in a hard SF setting - what 40k was rather than what it has become. Skirmish game, small stakes, a little rough around the edges, lots of room for individualization and improvisation.

I think the Kickstarter proved that he still has neat ideas, but lacks the focus and organization to connect all the dots and get a full game system up and running. So hand all the gruntwork of actually producing, distributing and supporting a game to his friends at Warlord. And honestly, I think adapting the Bolt Action rules is also a good thing. They are a fine, solid set of rules. I don't think the wargaming world is crying out for yet another way to stage 10-on-10 skirmishes. Pick an existing one to work with and move on to the weird stuff.

So let Priestley focus on the background and some fun tweaks and leave the other stuff to people who have done it before. Seems like a good result to me.

This is so much better than the space dwarves I was expecting. Like so much so.

warlord's metal prices are super reasonable, so it'll be interesting how these shake out.

 hubcap wrote:
I think affiliating with Warlord Games is probably the best outcome for Gates of Antares.

I mean, it's more of labor of love thing for Rick Priestley, isn't it? He is trying to recapture the spirit of Rogue Trader in a hard SF setting - what 40k was rather than what it has become. Skirmish game, small stakes, a little rough around the edges, lots of room for individualization and improvisation.

I think the Kickstarter proved that he still has neat ideas, but lacks the focus and organization to connect all the dots and get a full game system up and running. So hand all the gruntwork of actually producing, distributing and supporting a game to his friends at Warlord. And honestly, I think adapting the Bolt Action rules is also a good thing. They are a fine, solid set of rules. I don't think the wargaming world is crying out for yet another way to stage 10-on-10 skirmishes. Pick an existing one to work with and move on to the weird stuff.

So let Priestley focus on the background and some fun tweaks and leave the other stuff to people who have done it before. Seems like a good result to me.

I think you've hit the nail on the head there hubcap regarding how GoA should progress.

A nice slow monthly release of figures based of what customers are asking for along with a solid set of rules will help GoA grow organically into a cool system. I think I prefer this route to the bit hitters releasing a whole army in one go. Kind of like the old gw way of doing things. Plus it sound like there will be plenty of gamer feedback involved in the games developement.

I look forward to picking up something cool each month and growing a collection rather than the ks figure bombs I've recently being going for.

Much interested in this, the new renders look nice, and a whole army of metal guys would be awesome, considering that warlord do reasonable prices on their metals, aka roughly 50-60 aus for 20 odd figures in their metal BA range

That's more like it! Those I might be interested in buying. Just to clarify, are these renders final or WIP? The preview isn't exactly clear.

These look much better, and so does the idea of using a modified Bolt Action ruleset - I've written a few times about not wanting to see the wheel of basic rules reinvented over and over and over. My only concern with those models is they look very much to be multi-part models. While I don't mind separate-head-metals, and I'm completely fine with one-piece metal models, multipart metals are - and have always been - horrible to deal with. And even moreso for troops...

Still, they've at least gotten me interested again.

Pure speculation here, but somebody just sold over a million shares of GW stock. Maybe a former GW cornerstone employee dumped his stock in the company to fund GOA?

I still have yet to see something I don't like. Granted, I'm not keen on everything being metal, but beyond that, I like it all. Maybe I'll even buy a few at some point.

Things are looking up a bit. Those miniatures show there might be some life in the GoA model line yet (and honestly even if they were all crap it's not like there aren't other kickass miniatures out there cough *Dreamforge* cough. Only thing I don't like about these new models is the helmets, but that's easy to remedy.

I also like the sound of the supposed changes to the Bolt Action system. That ruleset has a lot of promise and if they expand on it in the right ways it will be a ton of fun.

The only thing that really bugs me so far is the background, namely genemodding things that you would normally just wear a suit (or a hat) to achieve. I don't care how good a mining job paid, I'm not turning myself into the thing just so I can walk around with no suit on. I'll take the environment suit thank you.

Also, will there be a "regular" human faction? Aka one that isn't genemodded into some sort of hideous abomination? I would like to see some sort of "traditional" society that has either shunned genemods or at least kept them to subtle changes. Not that I hate the idea of genemods in and of themselves. I just hate the idea of the only "human" factions being gorilla people, cat people, purple Thing/Hulk hybrids, etc. with no norm to show how different they've become.

The renders look the spitting image of some of the dream forge games stuff. Its a shame they will be in metal as a plastic release for the last lot would be rather cool

 MrMoustaffa wrote:
The only thing that really bugs me so far is the background, namely genemodding things that you would normally just wear a suit (or a hat) to achieve. I don't care how good a mining job paid, I'm not turning myself into the thing just so I can walk around with no suit on. I'll take the environment suit thank you.

Right, which is what I was saying about "pretty" gene mods. Or you might have a group like the One World Church from Cable and Deadpool who used body mods as a political gesture, rejecting racial discrimination by turning themselves blue.

Also, will there be a "regular" human faction? Aka one that isn't genemodded into some sort of hideous abomination? I would like to see some sort of "traditional" society that has either shunned genemods or at least kept them to subtle changes. Not that I hate the idea of genemods in and of themselves. I just hate the idea of the only "human" factions being gorilla people, cat people, purple Thing/Hulk hybrids, etc. with no norm to show how different they've become.

Yes. There are races with low key body mods, and also the Revers who have no body mods at all.

 MrMoustaffa wrote:
The only thing that really bugs me so far is the background, namely genemodding things that you would normally just wear a suit (or a hat) to achieve. I don't care how good a mining job paid, I'm not turning myself into the thing just so I can walk around with no suit on. I'll take the environment suit thank you.

It makes slightly better sense from a dystopian point of view. If you turn all the working classes into purpose-engineered abominations, you make social mobility impossible and help secure society against any kind of change. You'd always be able to tell who the "inferiors" were. Being a Boromite would be a yellow armband you could never take off.