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My gaming group wants to adjust some rules to tweak the balance of 40k and make it more fun. These are the house rules we've come up with:

Units coming from normal reserves are allowed to assault in the same turn, this excludes special reserves (e.g. deep strike, outflank, flank march and webway portals)

Infiltrating units are allowed to assault in the first turn


Units are allowed to assault out of a non-assault vehicle if the vehicle does not move that turn. A charge done in this way counts as a disordered charge.


If a non-assault transport vehicle gets destroyed then units that were within the transport are still allowed to assault, however this will count as a disordered charge.


Units are allowed to move their charge distance, even if it is not enough to make the charge.


Ignores Cover does a -2 modifier to the target's cover save, templates still ignore cover completely.


Units with the Interceptor special rule need to declare in their turn that they aregoing to intercept. They are not allowed to shoot that turn, but can shoot during the enemy turn as described in the rules.


Tau and Eldar are Allies of Convenience, not Battle Brothers.

Feedback would be appreciated

elzadar wrote:

Tau and Eldar are Allies of Convenience, not Battle Brothers

You'd have been better off not mentioning your pet-bias.

 DarknessEternal wrote:

elzadar wrote:

Tau and Eldar are Allies of Convenience, not Battle Brothers

You'd have been better off not mentioning your pet-bias.

I think it's fairly safe to say this is less a bias and more a general issue with the current state of 40k.

Allies should be reserved for narrative games in my opinion, as execution of what could have been a good idea is extremely flawed and unbalanced, but Taudar is a pretty extreme example of allies abused to the maximum.

XenosTerminus wrote:

 DarknessEternal wrote:

elzadar wrote:

Tau and Eldar are Allies of Convenience, not Battle Brothers

You'd have been better off not mentioning your pet-bias.

I think it's fairly safe to say this is less a bias and more a general issue with the current state of 40k.

Allies should be reserved for narrative games in my opinion, as execution of what could have been a good idea is extremely flawed and unbalanced, but Taudar is a pretty extreme example of allies abused to the maximum.

On that subject, SM should be either allies of convenience or desperate allies with tau (KILL THE XENO SCUM!) and IG should be battle brothers with tau (Gue'vessa).

Hows about downgrade all allies to AoC with very little exception to BB like Imperial guard (really the only one i can imagine)


In the grimdarkness of the far future there are no friends.

 Desubot wrote:
Hows about downgrade all allies to AoC with very little exception to BB like Imperial guard (really the only one i can imagine)


In the grimdarkness of the far future there are no friends.

Gue'vessa dammit!

That fault does not lie in the ally matrix, but in the codexes. It does show why the ally matrix is a bad idea to begin with, though. What do I mean with that? With regards to the ally matrix, you either take it or leave it, don't do half arsed attempts at game balance to something that's inherently a narrative and/or fluffy rule suggestion. One that is, for once I should add, not a random dice chart.

--

Why is a Webway Portal a special reserves? It's fairly limited in it's execution as well.
Does that apply to the Daemon portal as well?

Assaulting out of stationary vehicles, while mitigating some things, does not help all mechanized-mandatory assault units to do what they need to do.

Regarding the destroyed transport; how about only allowing them to assault if the transport was wrecked and if they did not need to emergency disembark? Makes a bit more sense since that's a fairly orderly disembarkation as if from a stationary vehicle. Obviously without disorderly assault penalties.

I'd say "units forced to move their charge distance". Something that always bothered me about failed assaults.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Desubot wrote:
Hows about downgrade all allies to AoC with very little exception to BB like Imperial guard (really the only one i can imagine)


In the grimdarkness of the far future there are no friends.

Eldar race as a whole are pretty decent chums with each other. Except or Saim Hann. Those guys are weird.

When a player removes models due too overwatch, he should be free to take from the back.
No more compulsory challenges.
no random charge.
No random warlord powers.
berserkers free to assault from any vehicle.

 loki old fart wrote:
When a player removes models due too overwatch, he should be free to take from the back.
No more compulsory challenges.
no random charge.
No random warlord powers.
berserkers free to assault from any vehicle.

Compulsory challenges is a very thematic drawback for some armies and I really think it should remain in play - however, challenges in general doesn't make sense for other armies at all. The primary example is for Dark Eldar - unless it's another Eldar (of whatever inclination) he'd not care for honour - and that's strongly supported by fluff. "Space Marine shouting challenges? Heh, lesser creature. I'll just kill whoever I want, this battle is Mine."

"No more compulsory challenges. "

Actually a fun way to make challenges work i think, is instead if the opponent denies the challenge, you can nominate a character to sit out IF it has lower Ld than the challengee. Kind of a stare down y aknow?

Also "free to assault from any vehicle. "

Honestly all units should be able to charge out of vehicles But with a heavy penalty like Initiative1 with no bonus attacks. while assault ramps negate all that.

My personal random charge removal was to give a unit its own movement speed + a d6 for the charge. with difficult added to the units own speed if applicable. makes faster units actually worth taking for assault. (balance issues i know)

"No random warlord powers"

What i would like is a power purchase for your warlord and secondary HQ (assistant?)

same with psychic powers.

 Desubot wrote:
"No more compulsory challenges. "

Actually a fun way to make challenges work i think, is instead if the opponent denies the challenge, you can nominate a character to sit out IF it has lower Ld than the challengee. Kind of a stare down y aknow?

Also "free to assault from any vehicle. "

Honestly all units should be able to charge out of vehicles But with a heavy penalty like Initiative1 with no bonus attacks. while assault ramps negate all that.

My personal random charge removal was to give a unit its own movement speed + a d6 for the charge. with difficult added to the units own speed if applicable. makes faster units actually worth taking for assault. (balance issues i know)

"No random warlord powers"

What i would like is a power purchase for your warlord and secondary HQ (assistant?)

same with psychic powers.

agreed
Challenges nerf thousand sons armies, usually led by sorcerer.

So to use interceptor, a unit loses 2 shooting phases? Even if that isn't what he meant its still belligerent.

I play a tau army, and I make a huge sacrifice to take interceptor. I either sacrifice Stims, or skyfire to do so (on a riptide obviously). It is an auto take on my riptides but its just that awesome.

However if a deepstrike had to be declared before interceptor, now you might be onto something. It still allows the possibility of a wasted shot.

I also feel the OP would be upset with the result of this rule change, it means I get to double tap the unit I shot. Didn't quite take down those helldrakes? No worries, you will riiiiiight now. I think that's a wash really.

Units coming from normal reserves are allowed to assault in the same turn, this excludes special reserves (e.g. deep strike, outflank, flank march, daemon portals and webway portals)

Infiltrating units are allowed to assault in the first turn

A unit can charge after embarking from a vehicle, however this will count as a disordered charge unless it is an assault vehicle.

If a non-assault transport vehicle gets destroyed then units that were within the transport are still allowed to assault, however this will count as a disordered charge.

Units are allowed to move their charge distance, even if it is not enough to make the charge.

Ignores Cover does a -2 modifier to the target's cover save, templates still ignore cover completely.

First roll a d6 and then choose a Warlord Trait Table

Feedback please

Ok here are some Ideas:

-Double all HP on vehicles, HP were a good idea but were executed poorly

-Add in fixed charged distances: random ones was just lazy writing imo.

-Try and do an Initiative system rather than just UGOIGO, like if a unit has I 8 on your turn then that unit does its move phase and so on. Then an unit at I: 7 does its move system and so on, rinse and repeat for each phase, if there is more than one unit at the same I value alternate at that I value between you and your opponents units until there are no more units at that I value between players. Dramatically changes the game and refreshes your tactics (for tank you may need to think ahead for that, but then again its your game )

Just some Ideas to keep the ball rolling

Theres another thread in here that has gone over the INT turn system and shown how flawed it is. I'd use the system being developed in that thread instead, with its 'end of turn assault res' and however it is that 'character interruptions' end up working

Random charge is fine, but random charge *and* reliable shooting is not. I would also like to see consolidate into assault - people have a fat cry over it but the board is a big place, if your 2" away from an assault you deserve to be dragged into it!

I would also apply "when a unit comes in from outflanking or deep strike, you may only snap fire against it in the following turn and it may only snap fire this turn" and/or "units may move *or* shoot *or* assault on the turn they enter from deep strike or outflanking, but not more than one of those actions" with optional penalties such as disordered charge.

Currently, if unit A assaults Enemy A and surrounds it, they can block unit B from making base contact and therefore assaulting. Thats rather daft. Models being unable to pile in once base contact is made is daft. One model touching terrain at all wrecking it for the whole unit is daft and models not being able to maneuver around obstacles on the way in is daft (exception to both is the first, 'closest to closest' movement, which would make sense as a way to 'evaluate' a charge as to if it is disordered or not). Models not moving after a failed charge is daft (I would suggest highest of the two dice, like Fantasy)

I like doubling vehicle HP to bring them more in line with Monsters, what I don't like with the current vehicle system is how easy it is to get +1 or even +2 on the damage table. Perhaps alter the damage table so that only a '7' is Explosion, but also hand out bonuses for armourbane and stuff like that. Monsters could also be 'staggered' by powerful hits, receiving an equivalent to 'crew shaken/stunned' if hit or wounded by an attack that is sufficiently powerful.

The aircraft rules are rubbish. Peregrine gave an overly complex but solid ruleset for them a few weeks back, or we could use something similar to flames of war

Line of Sight is crap. The game alternatively abstracts it and then doesn't. Shooting through a crack in a wall for full effect is slowed. Forests should block line of sight like they do in Infinity - you can see "into but not through" an area of forest. True line of sight from a models eyes is flying rodent gak.

There are far too many high strength, low AP pie plates in this game, and far too much low AP in general. It takes skill to move a short ranged or assault weapon of that type into position to hit its target, but none for something with 120" range and/or barrage (aka, LOLLINEOFSIGHT) to do the same, it should not exist in the game. AP flat out ignoring armour is awful, a game of hard counters is nothing more than glorified rock paper scissors. A soft counter system where AP x treats armour x+ as worse but not nonexistant would be far better.

Buffs and maledictions turn the game into MTG - the board game, and should be limited. Especially the ones that can target a friendly unit that the caster is not part of. Synergy should be closer to markerlight or synapse or KFF and further away from grimoir and psychic powers.

Could ramble on all day, this game is a mess.

"deserve to be dragged into it!"

Is a strong word.

I think it would be fine as a way to lock into another combat. so long as
1) the consolidator cannot attack (they have already swung)
2) the opponent may attack back. as they where ready for it. (unless they were not (already locked in combat)
"-Double all HP on vehicles, HP were a good idea but were executed poorly " please no.

There was an interesting idea of giving vehicles saves. and i think at least for glances they should.

 Desubot wrote:
"deserve to be dragged into it!"

Is a strong word.

I think it would be fine as a way to lock into another combat. so long as
1) the consolidator cannot attack (they have already swung)
2) the opponent may attack back. as they where ready for it. (unless they were not (already locked in combat)
"-Double all HP on vehicles, HP were a good idea but were executed poorly " please no.

There was an interesting idea of giving vehicles saves. and i think at least for glances they should.

I prefer glances do half a hull point. Makes it twice as difficult to glance things to death, shifting the game toward penetrating hits.

There are far too many high strength, low AP pie plates in this game, and far too much low AP in general. It takes skill to move a short ranged or assault weapon of that type into position to hit its target, but none for something with 120" range and/or barrage (aka, LOLLINEOFSIGHT) to do the same, it should not exist in the game.

I've got a system here that should help mitigate the lack of brainpower long range shooting takes to use.

AP flat out ignoring armour is awful, a game of hard counters is nothing more than glorified rock paper scissors. A soft counter system where AP x treats armour x+ as worse but not nonexistant would be far better.

This one is interesting however many people make it too complicated. My personal favorite way to do this is that if ap beats armor, reroll successful armor saves, on a 5+ they don't take a wound. This would give you some ability to survive, but would always be worse than a 5++.

I'd not allow assaulting from infiltrate. Turn 1 assaults can be an issue.

Dakkamite wrote:
Currently, if unit A assaults Enemy A and surrounds it, they can block unit B from making base contact and therefore assaulting. Thats rather daft. Models being unable to pile in once base contact is made is daft. One model touching terrain at all wrecking it for the whole unit is daft and models not being able to maneuver around obstacles on the way in is daft (exception to both is the first, 'closest to closest' movement, which would make sense as a way to 'evaluate' a charge as to if it is disordered or not). Models not moving after a failed charge is daft (I would suggest highest of the two dice, like Fantasy)

Couldn't agree more, especially on the whole Charge failure thing. I just think there is a misstep in logic, like "But.. but I did charge.. you can see here that I did in fact charge 5', it wasn't enough but my dudes did at least attempt a charge of 5'"
Charging is currently a goddamn mess IMO.

Dakkamite wrote:
I like doubling vehicle HP to bring them more in line with Monsters, what I don't like with the current vehicle system is how easy it is to get +1 or even +2 on the damage table. Perhaps alter the damage table so that only a '7' is Explosion, but also hand out bonuses for armourbane and stuff like that. Monsters could also be 'staggered' by powerful hits, receiving an equivalent to 'crew shaken/stunned' if hit or wounded by an attack that is sufficiently powerful.

Loving the MC system, surprised that isn't already a thing. Vehicles can lose their tracks and suffer from the associated problems but if a MCs leg is blown off it continues on like a trooper which seems... off.

Furious Charge:
+1 S and initiative when charging.

A unit composed entirely of models with FC may always attempt an assault against an enemy unit within 12", even when other rules deny it. If the charge succeeds in this manner, it counts as a disordered charge. (as per the norm, the models would not benefit from the stat boosts of FC this round.) Note that you may not assault if you would incur more than one instance of the disordered charge penalty.

Try this out
Stealth a unit employing stealth to infiltrate enemy lines, cannot fire or be fired upon. Unless subject to a Who go's there call .

A unit within range of a unit employing stealth, May call who go's there at which point both players dice off using 1D6.
If the player employing stealth is successful the unit maintains stealth status. The other player removes 1 model(sentry killed)
If the player calling who go's there succeeds, the stealth unit is subject to normal game play. And can be fired upon. Until contact is broken,
either unit is destroyed or falls back.

 koooaei wrote:
I'd not allow assaulting from infiltrate. Turn 1 assaults can be an issue.

Good. Let it be. You can play around it. Why is first-turn assaults any worse than having a unit deleted by artillery turn 1?

Extra armor should reduce the pen roll by 1. So a 5 (Disabled) becomes a 4 (weapon) or would in effect cancel AP2.

Ananiel

Ananiel wrote:
Extra armor should reduce the pen roll by 1. So a 5 (Disabled) becomes a 4 (weapon) or would in effect cancel AP2.

Ananiel

I really like this idea, but how would you make this available for non-Imperium armies? Give this rule to all tanks?

Most armies already have a vehicle upgrade that does the exact same thing as Extra Armour currently (and usually better).

 lord_blackfang wrote:
Most armies already have a vehicle upgrade that does the exact same thing as Extra Armour currently (and usually better).

only chaos and necrons of the top of my head

but that could work as a compensation for skimmers receiving Jink

However maybe making it only available for Heavy Vehicles would be better, seeing how other transports are too cheap for it.

Eldar have Spirit Stones, which is similar.

For the challenge:
1. Why not allow any one denying character push everyone else forward (on an LD check, that character sits out instead of the opponent choosing).
2. Why are MCs allowed to call out seargents as cowards?
I think those might fix challenges.

For failed charges, perhaps they move the larger of the two dice, like in WHFB?

For AP values, what if they reduced the sv similar to how high-str attacks do for Fantasy? Something like an ap3 sword forcing a 2+ model to roll a 5+.

 elzadar wrote:

 lord_blackfang wrote:
Most armies already have a vehicle upgrade that does the exact same thing as Extra Armour currently (and usually better).

only chaos and necrons of the top of my head

but that could work as a compensation for skimmers receiving Jink

However maybe making it only available for Heavy Vehicles would be better, seeing how other transports are too cheap for it.

Orks do too. Eldar have Spirit Stones that are even better.

So, that makes everyone except Tau and DE, right? And they have their own versions of passive defenses.

 lord_blackfang wrote:
So, that makes everyone except Tau and DE, right? And they have their own versions of passive defenses.

If you changed the tau auto repair system to 5+ instead of 6 that might work.