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Hi, all.

I'm sure this has been a thread in the past*, but I truly don't get this. Also, it is very possible I'm talking pooh here, this is purely based on what I assume to be true.

I remember Battle Fleet Gothic coming out back in the day, I think I was about 16, and I remember it looked pretty cool. I know it was cancelled, but here's my main issue:

If Games Workshop cancelled Battle Fleet Gothic, why the Hell have they released a Warhammer Fantasy "Battle Fleet"? What's it called? Dreadfleet?

Why, after 10 years after axing Battle Fleet, bring out the same game wearing a WHF skin? How long did Gothic last, and how long will this new one last?

Just seems odd to me.

I'd wish it was still around, now that I actually play WH40K, I think Gothic looks/looked like a cool game.

*All this has happened before, and will again.

They have a habit of getting rid of their really cool games (BFG/Necromunda) and keeping trash like "relive floating down the river with 12 dwarves in a barrel"... errr... The Hobbit

MarsNZ wrote:
They have a habit of getting rid of their really cool games (BFG/Necromunda) and keeping trash like "relive floating down the river with 12 dwarves in a barrel"... errr... The Hobbit

Agreed, and agreed again. Battle Fleet is gone, yet LoTRs has been around since the first film. My local Games Workshop doesn't even stock LoTR!

I believe they have moved BFG, Necromunda, Blood Bowl and similar prints to their "specialist games" section. Which they then set on fire and burned to the ground, if memory serves.

Scuttlebutt is that Kirby is getting the company ready for sale by trimming the fat and jacking up the price points to make it look like GW is healthier than its raw sales numbers suggest.
Hence many of the specialist games got cut. Which sucked as they were also some of the best things they made IMHO.

Apparently GW hates games that don't require you to field 100 models, one of them the size of a toddler.

Shame. Looks like you can't even buy the models from Games Workshop. I really liked the look of those Imperial ships. I can't even find Dread Fleet on their site. Ha. Been cut already?

Sod it. I think I'll buy into Spartan's Dystopian Wars, and Firestorm instead.

Games Workshop. I sort of hate you, get you make the Imperial Guard. Many mixed feelings.

I agree. A real shame BFG is gone. I find the system a great tool to add more to an epic campaign battle. Do some ship battling and then eventually take it down to planet level.

I have the original box set plus all of the BFG books. Sadly I only have a 2000 pts imperial fleet with nothing to battle against....just the 4 chaos cruisers that came in the starter box.

What really burns my biscuit is that they still refer to BFG fluff in their books. I was reading the new Tyranid Codex, reading about how Tyran Prime had three Endeavour class light cruisers in orbit. Not even considering the fact that the Endeavour never made it into full production (problems with the molds not casting correctly), but why even mention the specific ship class when the source material is no longer easily available?!

Because it's just a word. You can imagine to yourself what an "Endeavour-class light cruiser" is, and give it whatever Imperial weapons and crews and stuff you want, and do your thing with that.

 Tower75 wrote:
I can't even find Dread Fleet on their site. Ha. Been cut already?

Dreadfleet was a limited edition thing, it was never intended to be left up on their site to buy later. The left overs after a month or two were taken and thrown in dumpsters a few blocks away from GW stores. If you still want it however I think a few FLGS might have some gathering dust out the back still.

 Tower75 wrote:
Sod it. I think I'll buy into Spartan's Dystopian Wars, and Firestorm instead.

Dyst Wars and Firestorm Amarda seem to be based loosely on BFG mechanics and while I haven't actually played FA I know it uses a very similar system to DW so I wholeheartedly recommend either as a BFG alternative.
Same sort of 'move X forward before turning up to Y degrees', same 'this weapon only fires in this direction' and a similar system to the big chart that you consult to see how many dice you roll from a gun based on distance and facings.

 Tower75 wrote:
If Games Workshop cancelled Battle Fleet Gothic, why the Hell have they released a Warhammer Fantasy "Battle Fleet"? What's it called? Dreadfleet?

I'm puzzled as to what you think Dreadfleet has to do with BFG. It's not just BFG reskinned... it's a totally separate game that just happens to share the word 'fleet' as part of its name.


GW's specialist games were never reallt intended to last any great length of time. Up until the Lord of the Rings was added to their stable, they had their 'big two' games, and a specialist game that would see support for a few years and then be replaced by the next one off the drawing board.

These all saw a slight resurgence when GW launched the Specialist Games section on their website, but with the removal of their metl production they all finally went the way of the Dodo.


Dreadfleet was a one-off limited (Ha!) release. It wasn't a replacement for BFG. It was just a single box game release.

 insaniak wrote:
GW's specialist games were never reallt intended to last any great length of time. Up until the Lord of the Rings was added to their stable, they had their 'big two' games, and a specialist game that would see support for a few years and then be replaced by the next one off the drawing board.

I thought Epic was a core game for a while?

Firestorm is a worthwhile game. It's cheap and the new rules just came out

 jonolikespie wrote:

 insaniak wrote:
GW's specialist games were never reallt intended to last any great length of time. Up until the Lord of the Rings was added to their stable, they had their 'big two' games, and a specialist game that would see support for a few years and then be replaced by the next one off the drawing board.

I thought Epic was a core game for a while?

I think they were calling it a core game for a while, but it didn't last in the stores any longer than any of the other specialist games.

Pretty much this, it was WHFB, 40K and Epic plus A.N Other for a bit, but in the final analysis, it was essentially just a SG with a slightly longer shelf life.

Shame, I think it really offered something different.

 Lancer wrote:
I agree. A real shame BFG is gone. I find the system a great tool to add more to an epic campaign battle. Do some ship battling and then eventually take it down to planet level.

I have the original box set plus all of the BFG books. Sadly I only have a 2000 pts imperial fleet with nothing to battle against....just the 4 chaos cruisers that came in the starter box.

That sounds like a ton of fun! I wish they still had it up too, but out of curiosity, how big are the model for BFG anyone have a pic of them next to a space marine/guardsman?

To maintain the illusion of profits and a sustainable business model, GW has cut anything not nailed to the floor over the last year while hiking prices.

BFG is one of GW's best games ever. I have a substantial chaos fleet and love the system. The battles always seem to forge a narrative - without having to roll on a million "set the stage" tables.

The Black Legion codex also mentions BFG in easter eggs - the Eye of Night and the Hand of Darkness are both items you can buy your character, and they are awesome. These were the items Abaddon had to find in order to activate the blackstone fortresses.

Dystopian Wars is a really fun game, I do play it, but it doesn't play like BFG really. It is a naval combat game, so you have to plan your moves ahead of time, but with an exploding 6 mechanic it really often comes down to luck. I am not bad-mouthing it, it's really fun to play, but it can be frustrating.


BFG's models were easy to paint and the rules system was pretty solid. Everything felt epic, from all ahead full orders to brace for impact to the way carriers operated.


The rules can be downloaded, and the firestorm armada models could easily be used to substitute for BFG. Give it a shot.

 insaniak wrote:

 jonolikespie wrote:

 insaniak wrote:
GW's specialist games were never reallt intended to last any great length of time. Up until the Lord of the Rings was added to their stable, they had their 'big two' games, and a specialist game that would see support for a few years and then be replaced by the next one off the drawing board.

I thought Epic was a core game for a while?

I think they were calling it a core game for a while, but it didn't last in the stores any longer than any of the other specialist games.

Epic was a core game for a long time. It started with Adeptus Titanicus in the 1980s and went through 3 or 4 boxed set editions in the 90s before sadly passing into obscurity. It also allowed GW to flesh out the major factions for large scale conflicts before they could really afford to do a wide range of 28mm scale vehicles. Most of the big stuff coming through in current Codexes have their basis in models and concepts released at Epic scale.

You can still download all the Battlefleet Gothic Rules and Fleet lists for free from the GW site.

http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/content/article.jsp?catId=cat480005a&categoryId=6700003a§ion=&aId=21500018a

They've stopped making models, but they still come up on ebay fairly frequently.

 insaniak wrote:

 Tower75 wrote:
If Games Workshop cancelled Battle Fleet Gothic, why the Hell have they released a Warhammer Fantasy "Battle Fleet"? What's it called? Dreadfleet?

I'm puzzled as to what you think Dreadfleet has to do with BFG. It's not just BFG reskinned... it's a totally separate game that just happens to share the word 'fleet' as part of its name.

Really? I'm not arguing here, but come on, fella. Battle Fleet Gothic was a ship-based tactician game based on WH40K. That was scrapped 'cos Games Workshop hate us. Ten years after that, they release a "Special", one off ship-based tactician game based on WHB.

I don't get GW's market strategy here. They clearly hate everything that's not something to do with Space Marines, so why bother with producing a "one off" game that's basically a re-skinned BFG, to the masses that they're not even going to acknowledge existed in 3 months time?

And BFG was just Man o’war in space. I actually have no idea if that is true; while I have played BFG, I’ve not played either of GW’s wet navy games. But if I was going to pin Dreadfleats’s roots somewhere, it would be the previous incarnation of the WHFB ship game.

GW has always had WHFB, W40, and an extra specialist game they were flogging for a few years. That extra game rotated. One year it might be BFG, another bloodbowl. Necromunda, gorkamorka, manowar, mordheim, dreadfleat, space hulk, whatever. Once LoTR came on the scene, this got shuffled up a bit, since that got a real slice of the pie.

The diference in the new Space Hulk and Dreadfleet is that GW is honest about them being a one-and-done box. Not “here’s our new game, we are going to support it for a year or so, then forget about it”

As far as specialist games go, BFG got a reasonable level of support. But they are the ignored and abused branch of the GW family, so that’s not saying a whole lot.

 ductvader wrote:
Firestorm is a worthwhile game. It's cheap and the new rules just came out

Yes, yes it is. Fun, easy, good looking models.

 Nevelon wrote:
As far as specialist games go, BFG got a reasonable level of support. But they are the ignored and abused branch of the GW family, so that’s not saying a whole lot.

I'm not entirely sure what "reasonable level of support" means. If you mean they put out some rules, then put out a bunch of PDFs that changed the rules, then PDFs to change the PDFs, then ignored the community.. Meanwhile the community performed cut/paste jobs to fix the rule book and tried to clarify some things after which GW got mad and stopped talking to anyone about it. Then sure, they "supported it".

I think "reasonable" would have been to fix the rules they pushed. That one thing would have led to far more sales. It's like they just don't get it at all. Their biz model seems to be, make a set of rules that are "almost" there, release with models. Fix a few random things then just stop for no rhyme or reason and wonder why everyone stops buying the models. About the only change on that model for 6th Edition was: ask people to *pay* for the rule fixes.

I must have had my mouse hovering over the Pay button after loading up a cart full of BFG models about a dozen times in the last 2 years it was available. Each time I stopped because of just how hard it was to compile a usable rule book given what they had on their site and zero confidence they were ever going to fix it. Eventually I came across Firestorm Armada. They were in the middle of finishing up their 2.0 rules so I waited. Last month they were released and I bought. Have to say I'm glad I did.

My group now uses FA combined with 40k. We've added a few things in order to handle the concept of troop transports and executing a drop on a planet. Works very well for our campaign days.

 Tower75 wrote:
They clearly hate everything that's not something to do with Space Marines, so why bother with producing a "one off" game that's basically a re-skinned BFG, to the masses that they're not even going to acknowledge existed in 3 months time?

You seem to have a rather broad definition of what 'reskinned' means. To me, it would seem to suggest that the two games actually share a common system.

They don't.

Again, Dreadfleet has absolutely no connection to BFG.


For the actual question here, the answer would seem to be obvious: Because they don't hate everything that's not to do with Space Marines.

And in this specific case, because they drastically over-estimated the appeal of a one-off WHFB-based naval warfare boardgame that mixes all fo the races together in defiance of existing background material...

Lotr came out and after a very short while all the good games (bfg epic etc) went to specialist Games, the real shame is that bfg and epic were by far the best rulesets gw ever produced

Space Fleet to Man'o'war to BFG to Dreadfleet. The cycle means that its back into space for the next one