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Too much book keeping.

Roll and take note of your warlord trait.
Roll and take note of your psychic powers. Gets very tedious as soo as you have more than one psyker.
Roll and take note of your objectives.
Roll and take note of your mysterious terrain.
Chaos - Roll and take note of your mutations.
Daemons - Roll and take note of your gifts.
Oh wait better pause the game and let me roll on this random table that I need to look up to see what takes affect.

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

 Thokt wrote:
...the power of shooting.

I never quite got this. It's a futuristic game, of course guns are going to be powerful.

I've said this time, and time again. What would "make sense" should have no bearing on how gameplay actually works. This is a setting where space travel is achieved by flying through a literal deamon infested hell and all technology uses a generous helping of Plebtonium to not break the laws of physics.

1. Battle brother allies
2. Data slate's ignoring the FOC chart
3. Being on here too often
4. GW not modifying the "broken" thing's within a codex

I think if they released updated PDF's of a codex to remove the thing's which people whinge about we will be better off..

They did it with the Dark Elves codex a long time ago? I remember having to cut out unit stat's and paste them into the book.

1- Total lack of Internal Balance. Useless units together with overpowered units in the same Codex. Easy choices when building a "competitive" army.
2- Total lack of External Balance. If you do not get the best of your Codex and your Codex is not particularly good, forget to get a proper game. Unless a lot of fixes are applied by the players.
3- Total lack of "Faction Balance". Marines and marines and marines and marines and marines and marines and marines and marines and marines and marines and marines and marines and marines and marines and marines and marines and marines. Being victorious even in the background of other armies, taking possession of the cover of the Rulebook. No time to get a good Codex for most of the other factions. No time for new factions. Some old factions showed nearly zero love. Only marines and marines and marines and marines and marines and marines.
4- Money-grabbing poorly implementent concepts: Flyers (good concept, poorly implemented, completely unfair for most lists from most armies), Fortifications (senseless), Dataslates and Formations (buy rules to win your friends!!), Allies (great concept, stupid chart). Rising prices everywhere while the quality drops. No play-testing, not even proofreading, "cheap" copy-pasted Codex that are not cheap at all.
5- Total senseless retcons. Big factor. Not as big as in 5th Edition (Grey Knights & Necrons), but still the thing I dislike the most. So the Black Templars has forgotten the Edict of Nikaea? And the Undivided Daemon Princes like Perturabo, Lorgar and many others are no more? Why do they do this?

 Madcat87 wrote:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

 Thokt wrote:
...the power of shooting.

I never quite got this. It's a futuristic game, of course guns are going to be powerful.

I've said this time, and time again. What would "make sense" should have no bearing on how gameplay actually works. This is a setting where space travel is achieved by flying through a literal deamon infested hell and all technology uses a generous helping of Plebtonium to not break the laws of physics.

No, I mean, why complain that shooting is to powerful. Ranged weaponry is the core of the game. If you want a game in which CC is the core than WHFB is always available.

5. $50 Hardback Codices-- I used to collect them so I knew what my opponent was doing. Not at that price range.
4. The plethora of USR-- Some are cool, but they seem to be never ending and get added to when a new codex comes out
3. Random Anything-- I'd gladly pay 25 points to take a single warlord trait of my choice. Same with psychic powers. Or just remove the tables altogether and put it on the stat line of the model.
2. Wound allocation-- Isn't it obvious the captain is going to throw bodies in front of him to stop bullets? Or maybe the meltagun guy is smart enough to get out of the way?
1. Power weapons-- Used to kill you outright, now there are how many different versions with different stats? And then there is poor Dante...

The continual changes to rules that are supposed to make the game easier and faster, but just make it more convoluted and slower.
Lets get rid of all the modifiers because math is hard, and replace it with complicated systems such as ap and cover saves that make no sense!
You can only have one save because multiple saves take too much time.........but then you can reroll them all!

Tables... endless tables... I conpletely forgot how much fething book keeping is required to play a basic daemons army

Roll for rewards on model one.
Roll for psy powers on model one.
rinse and repeat 4+ times then roll for warlord trait, oh and you better be sure you made each model distinctly different since you and your opponent will have to be able to tell that daemon with curly horn is different from daemon with curlyer horn and make sure you brought a notepad and pen to make write down all of the things they have.

Then we get to gameplay.

Roll for mysterious objective.
Roll for mysterious forest.
Roll for mysterious river.
Roll for mysterious etc.
Roll for whatever the stranger artifact things are called that use 2d6 to determine.
Cast hallucinate and roll on table to see what happens.

Then its the shooting phase.
Roll on table for warpstorm

Assault phase (assuming you have CSM allies)
Roll on table for what mutations spawn get
Roll on table for what possessed get
Roll on table for what gift they get from winning challenge

As you can see there are just so many bloody fething tables that it can get pretty rediculous at times and I'm almost positive I missed some more tables that could have been used (like a hellbrute getting shot at has to roll on a table to see how crazy he goes) lucky for me though I can play necrons if I dont want as nearly many tables and only have to roll for warlord trait and all the mysterious garbage (thanks matt ward for not giving me half a books worth of tables )
Roll


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh and better hope your not orks because then you have to roll on a table every time you do something

Roll for wierdboy psy test
Roll on table for wierdboy power
Deep strike and probly misshap with your 30 boyz
Roll on table for misshap result

Roll on table for SAG and pray you dont get doubles

 Madness! wrote:
5. High volume of flyers
4. Ignores cover
3. 2++ Re-rollable saves
2. D Weapons
1. [MOD EDIT - Please don't try to 'workaround' the expletive filter - thanks! - Alpharius] who forgot the first rule

Agree with most of these...

1. Nerfed assault
2. D Weapons
3. 2++ Re-rollable saves
4. Ignores Cover
5. Allies (as they are written)


Only point 1 is really a *core* part of the ruleset that you couldn't change without going back to 5th.

Opponents! they always try to win!

The current GW trend of buy the latest expensive model to win.

1. People complaining about allies.
2. People complaining that assault is broken.
3. People complaining that the latest codex is overpowered and their codex isn't.
4. E-codexes.
5. D weapons.

5) The IGOUGO turn structure, where you can go get lunch while your opponent takes a turn and not miss anything.
4) The absence of a consistent idea of what GW wants 40k to be, which leads to a bloated mess of rules that try to pull the game in opposing directions.
3) The use of random tables as a substitute for player decisions (warlord traits, psychic powers, etc).
2) The poor balance, both internal and external, that reduces the fun of list building to "identify the worst balance mistakes" and requires a major effort to ensure that both players are bringing lists of similar power to have a fun game.
1) GW's complete and inexcusable failure to make even the slightest effort to do anything about fixing those problems.

5) Strength D weapons
4) 2++ rerolls, come on, just stupid
3) Randomness in game (some = fine, but this is ridiculous)
2) Lack of true continuing support, and poor point cost balancing both between codices and internally within the same codex
1) Too much before the game rolling (tables, etc., just let us play a list for crying out loud)

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

 Madcat87 wrote:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

 Thokt wrote:
...the power of shooting.

I never quite got this. It's a futuristic game, of course guns are going to be powerful.

I've said this time, and time again. What would "make sense" should have no bearing on how gameplay actually works. This is a setting where space travel is achieved by flying through a literal deamon infested hell and all technology uses a generous helping of Plebtonium to not break the laws of physics.

No, I mean, why complain that shooting is to powerful. Ranged weaponry is the core of the game. If you want a game in which CC is the core than WHFB is always available.

Because there are many armies in this game whose iconic style is melee combat.

40K IS WHFB, just in space. In 40K, heroically charging down the center with your sword makes just as much "tactical" sense as rolling up in a mechanized gunline and laying waste to everything in a hundred meter range.

Since this is the image the games PROMOTES, it should therefore have the rules reflect it.

5) ANY stacked invul saves.
4) Assaulting out of vehicles nerf. I miss being able to charge if the vehicle didn't move, and I thought that was perfectly balanced
3) Allies - that's what apoc is for. You play Eldar? Play Eldar.
2) formations not taking force org slots - they really should, and in fact in my opinion would be more balanced if they cost FEWER points than they normally would, but took up ADDITIONAL slots. Like the tau broadside formation - for preferred enemy space marines, your formation takes up an elite [for the riptide] and ALL your heavy support slots. But make it only cost 550 points or so.

1) Casualties from the front. Yes this actually makes the top of my list. I hate having to bubble wrap special weapons that some other trooper could just pick up. I hate that my leaders can't lead. I hate that by snaking a model around to stand an inch away from a special weapon, it can be sniped out.

1.1) Effect of vehicle damage to passengers. You stunned my tank so I don't GET to shoot at ALL? You shook it, so I can only snap fire, and my flamer can't be used? No frickin' way!

 A GumyBear wrote:
Tables... endless tables... I conpletely forgot how much fething book keeping is required to play a basic daemons army

Roll for rewards on model one.
Roll for psy powers on model one.
rinse and repeat 4+ times then roll for warlord trait, oh and you better be sure you made each model distinctly different since you and your opponent will have to be able to tell that daemon with curly horn is different from daemon with curlyer horn and make sure you brought a notepad and pen to make write down all of the things they have.

Then we get to gameplay.

Roll for mysterious objective.
Roll for mysterious forest.
Roll for mysterious river.
Roll for mysterious etc.
Roll for whatever the stranger artifact things are called that use 2d6 to determine.
Cast hallucinate and roll on table to see what happens.

Then its the shooting phase.
Roll on table for warpstorm

Assault phase (assuming you have CSM allies)
Roll on table for what mutations spawn get
Roll on table for what possessed get
Roll on table for what gift they get from winning challenge

As you can see there are just so many bloody fething tables that it can get pretty rediculous at times and I'm almost positive I missed some more tables that could have been used (like a hellbrute getting shot at has to roll on a table to see how crazy he goes) lucky for me though I can play necrons if I dont want as nearly many tables and only have to roll for warlord trait and all the mysterious garbage (thanks matt ward for not giving me half a books worth of tables )
Roll


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh and better hope your not orks because then you have to roll on a table every time you do something

Roll for wierdboy psy test
Roll on table for wierdboy power
Deep strike and probly misshap with your 30 boyz
Roll on table for misshap result

Roll on table for SAG and pray you dont get doubles

Yep. This is why I completely ignore the "don't photocopy our stuff, even for your own use. Becauz stealin' (consequently, would you like to buy our psychic cards? Valid for up to 4 years, guaranteed)" part of the legal page.

1. No plastic Sisters of Battle.
2. Fliers (as implemented)
3. Units in codex that are pants
4. Units in codex that are OP
5. Ward fluff.

5) Premeasuring
4) Random charges
3) Flyers (poorly implemented rules, and really shouldn't be in battles this scale)
2) Formations/data slates
1) Allies

madd_leeroy wrote:
Sorry guys i am fairly new here, What units have a 2++ rerollable save? and what does IGOUGO mean?

2+ invulnerable save with rules allowing you to reroll 1s
I Go U Go


Automatically Appended Next Post:
The main rule that bugs me is that you should get a cover save and an armour save or a negative BS effect for cover. Also the weapon strength of some weapons doesn't seem fair, rather than having so much str 8,9 or 10 out there weapons should have more shots.

1. Assault nerfs (random charge, no assault from deepstrike)
2. AP 3 or better everywhere and cheap as chips
3. Battle Brothers/Allies Matrix. (Smurfs backing up IG I'm cool with, but BA and Necrons? Seriously? )
4. The Tau codex. Yes I hate it that much as do most folks I've talked to, including Tau players who feel like they have an easy button or can't find games because nobody likes playing against that army.
5. Interceptor against ground targets

1. ignores cover
2. allies that are totally against their own fluff
3. warlord traits (as orks don't have their own atm)
4. the wound allocation with templates. (if i'm correct, casualties are the closest to the template gun that just fired, not the ones under)
5. intercept (finally, your flyer gets out of reserves and surprise, intercepted.)

BaalSNAFU wrote:

...
3. Battle Brothers/Allies Matrix. (Smurfs backing up IG I'm cool with, but BA and Necrons? Seriously? )
...

What about SM and tau, but not Tau and IG (SM are "Kill the xeno scum!" and Tau have gue'vessa).

1. Assault changes - I can see some of these being okay, but taken all together and the buff to shooting, assault armies really got the shaft.
2. Allies - I thought everyone was xenophobes in 40K, heck if you look at the Allies chart 40K just doesn't seem as dangerous anymore. Nearly everyone can be friends!
3. Formations
4. All the "ignores cover" rules - I believe there should be no cover at all in 6th edition. As soon as an army saw how effective ignores cover weaponry is, that is all they would use, ever. So either cover works or it wouldn't at all.
5. Tables, oh the tables.

 BlaxicanX wrote:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

 Madcat87 wrote:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

 Thokt wrote:
...the power of shooting.

I never quite got this. It's a futuristic game, of course guns are going to be powerful.

I've said this time, and time again. What would "make sense" should have no bearing on how gameplay actually works. This is a setting where space travel is achieved by flying through a literal deamon infested hell and all technology uses a generous helping of Plebtonium to not break the laws of physics.

No, I mean, why complain that shooting is to powerful. Ranged weaponry is the core of the game. If you want a game in which CC is the core than WHFB is always available.

Because there are many armies in this game whose iconic style is melee combat.

40K IS WHFB, just in space. In 40K, heroically charging down the center with your sword makes just as much "tactical" sense as rolling up in a mechanized gunline and laying waste to everything in a hundred meter range.

Since this is the image the games PROMOTES, it should therefore have the rules reflect it.

I agree, I've never understood this. Yes, it's a futuristic game but don't forget, this is WHFB in space. It isn't sci-fi, it's sci fantasy. Daemons are almost entirely close combat oriented (seriously you can count on your hands the shooting attacks and its even worse if you don't count psyker spells), Orks, whilst they have lots of dakka, are built to assault the enemy, tyranids swarm with hordes firing dozens of shots before charging into an assault... Dark Eldar lean towards Close combat, CSM are an assault army with a slight preference for close combat in many ways, Blood Angels are built for quick assaults firing guns and then assaulting, etc. Heck, there are guardsman regiments that assault in fluff! This is a world where heroes lead from the front and commanders often stand front helmetless to inspire their men. Should Calgar, Tu'Shan, etc really be in the front? No they should be in a ship planning battle tactics if we were opting for a real sci-fi sense but instead the can be taken to leave massive battles. We have a guardsman commissar that fought a warboss and ended up yanking off a power klaw before dawning it as his own. This is a world where we have flying churches in the form of ships that act as though they are battleships from the navy that sail into a daemon infested alternate dimension of souls and emotions. And as mentioned, one army is entirely dependent on it, three heavily rely on it, and three prefer it (I'm adding SW. In reality they should be here even if their codex doesn't represent it very well). Finally, I also would like to point out armies have a strength stat and an initiative, these two are almost entirely only worth anything in close combat and there's a smattering of weapons along with the fact that most commanders are geared for close combat in the game. Even Tau have a few commanders that have an odd specialty in close combat I believe and, until kroot were changed to really only be worth being ambush shooters or snipers, even Tau had a CC unit. 40k isn't about shooting each other. It's about shooting each other all the while advancing upon one another for glorious close combat!

Anyways my own:
5. Strength D weapons
4. 2++ re-rollable invuln saves (and I play tzeentch daemons!)
3. Wound allocation (Illogical, adds to petty arguments, makes things take longer because now we actually have to complain. Also can add TLOS in here. I like how it makes it so you can't shoot everybody off if you only see one person, but then you have custom models crouching to snipe... that can't cause they are beneath a wall *faaail*
2. The allies chart (Seriously what were they going for here? It's not fluffy nor is it competitive. I get the attempt but casual players could always just ask their opponent yo can I play my marines with my guardsman? Yeah sure. But what does it represent? Well Nids get no allies so I guess they are trying to be fluffy. Imperial factions 90% of the time get to be BB with eachother... no shock there. Wait why do SoB and GK have so many problems allying with imperial factions you mean GK are just as eager to ally with Necrons as guardsman da huh? Okay then SPACE MARINES BB WITH TAU!? Huh? Okay then guardsman must be BB to represent Gue'vesa... allies of convenience. Oh maybe I can play a mock version of the lost and the damned with my CSM and daemons? Allies of Convenience and Desperate allies. Huh? Seriously, in the end it doesn't really please fluff bunnies or competitive players. For competitive players, it brings out more complicated broken units that can shore up your codex weaknesses and reveal extra cheap combos further thrusting up good armies to even better. And fluffy bunnies? Well they can rage about the illogical allies in this. If tau get SM bb then just give Nids BB or AoC with guardsman. It's not really fully representative of genestealer cults but its something rather than giving them no allies at all. Its unbalancing and an absolute mess. And the biggest problem is BB. It just brings so many broken combos. Even if GW tried to balance their codices this would inevitably bring some stupidly broken things)
1. The nerfs to the assault and CC. Now, I'll say this. I don't like overwatch. It doesn't do much except against Tau where it gets silly, but lets think about it. So what my assaulters just stand there? Why are the guys always lost from the front? The guys are shooting aimlessly not at the first guy. Also this is supposed to represent seconds per turn, not a large span of time. If you've already shot me on your turn isn't that close enough to overwatch and when you get charged and you shot at a different target possibly not having time to respond? But this would be okay on its own. But its a laundry list of things that punished assault armies to the point where the only army that can really do it are Daemons (and really the only ones that can do that well and are assault units, aka not pink horrors, are Fleshounds, Lord of Change, Seekers, daemonettes, and screamerstar), one or two things in CSM (spawn or bikers with a lord either juggerlord or nurgle biker), and then the seerstar.

Honorable Mention:
-The bloody randomness. Seriously, this game has so much randomness going on from the start of the game. What type of deployment? *rolls* Terrain for each piece of the table? *rolls rolls rolls rolls* Warlord Traits? *rolls* Any psykers? Well roll the dice for them! Hope you aren't playing a psyker oriented army *rolls rolls rolls rolls rolls rolls* Playing Daemons? Good good, well it is time for you to roll for every item you give your characters *rolls rolls rolls rolls* Oh what's that it's the shooting phase? Well I guess its time to roll some dice again! *rolls 2 dice* Or maybe you are playing CSM? Hurray! You won a challenge time to roll on the random table of bad!
-Challenges: Cool, I get the concept. Space Marines fighting against Chaos Space marines leader to leader. Except one problem, it doesn't work that way. Tau have few hqs that are good in cc, MC are characters meaning that if they deny, they can't do anything at all meaning that they can be tarpitted by a single sergeant, then you have guardsman whose sergeants probably won't be able to win in a challenge meaning you can't really even make a list like that. Oh, and here's a perfect example of an irritating situation. His Hive Tyrant smashes down before my units, I have a huge horde of CSM (around 17) the sergeant still alive with my chaos lord in. That's it, that is his last unit, and I have my last as well. We set loose a volley of bolter fire before charging in to close combat (he would have gotten too us first if not). Oh feth I forgot Chaos rules. Quick send the sergeant! Sergeant dies. Next turn oh yay I have to challenge again. *sends chaos lord* he managed to roll all his invuln saves (even re-rolling them). The game ended and seriously, if I could at least have denied it I could have just krakked him to death.
-The clunky old rules that need to be torn apart and rebuilt

5. Pay to win DLC
4. Allies chart
3. Challenges
2. Wound allocation / look out sir
1. TLOS

 Blacksails wrote:

madd_leeroy wrote:
Sorry guys i am fairly new here, What units have a 2++ rerollable save? and what does IGOUGO mean?

Screamers plus Heralds with a certain wargear item grant it a boost to its unvuln save (from 4++ to 2++) and the nature of Tzeentch daemons allows them re-roll ones, meaning they're effectively re-rollable 2++'s. Eldar can do very similar with Dark Eldar and some bikes with farseers and whatnot.

IGOUGO is exactly what it sounds like. I go, then you go. I go, you go. Its a turn system where each player does their entire turn, then the other player does their entire turn and so on. As opposed to, say, alternating activations, like the entirety of the Spartan Games line.

Thanks thats helped me

Pretty much 1-4 being the battle brothers of allies
5 being the fact that you should be able to deny the with on ALL psychic powers even ones that dont target you (buffs).
pretty much everything else is golden.

I just realized what really took the fun out of 40K for me last time I gave it a chance.

1) Dakkadakka. Specifically the gakloads of negative attitude about any possible aspect of the game expressed on DakkaDakka. All the fething time.
2) See above.
3) See above.
4) See above.
5) See above.

This time, I'll not let that happen again. So without further ado, I bid thee farewell.

1 D weapons
2 E codex
3 taudar
4 screamerstar
5 not true TLoS

In no particular order.

Dataslate Formations.
Escalation.
Void Shield Generators
Aquila Strongpoint.
ALLIES.

#5 New wound allocation "system"
#4 Randomness increase (charge, psychic powers specifically)
#3 Challenges
#2 Piecemeal E-releases
#1 Balance? What's that?