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I'm looking to make some specialist close combat Units for my Homegrown Ultramarine successor Chapter.
I want to make the best/most efficient use I can of the Bitz i have, because i decided its about time i stopped buying stuff and started using it.

I wanted to get peoples opinions on the following units:
Honour Guard
Biker Command Squad
Vanguard Veterans

Tell me if/when you think they are viable choices, how you use them, and -perhaps most importantly for my wargear inventory- how you would gear them .... oh, and 'why' would be nice
For example "Vanguards: all with Relic Blades, only ever take with a chaplain, use as a warlord hunting unit", or "Honour Guard need Tigurius' abilities". becuase....

Feel free to throw in any tactical comments that come to mind on these units, or even other units I've not mentioned.
The more ideas you throw at me ...... well, the more indecisive i will become, but I am interested to get some more experienced perspectives non-the-less

Look forward to hearing your thoughts and experiences on these units and Codex SM CC options.


I've been thinking about a 5x Relic blade Vanguard unit, and an all TH/SS death star biker command squad .... mainly because, well, theoretical awesomeness.
I am aware however that the biker command squad, that i hadn't started building yet, can no longer take plasma guns, and seems to rack up to some ridiculous points cost now ....
not to mention a 5xRelic Blade Vanguard Veteran unit maybe not being the best use of my precious Relic Blades.

Capt-Crapulence wrote:
I'm looking to make some specialist close combat Units for my Homegrown Ultramarine successor Chapter.
I want to make the best/most efficient use I can of the Bitz i have, because i decided its about time i stopped buying stuff and started using it.

I wanted to get peoples opinions on the following units:
Honour Guard
Biker Command Squad
Vanguard Veterans

Tell me if/when you think they are viable choices, how you use them, and -perhaps most importantly for my wargear inventory- how you would gear them .... oh, and 'why' would be nice
For example "Vanguards: all with Relic Blades, only ever take with a chaplain, use as a warlord hunting unit", or "Honour Guard need Tigurius' abilities". becuase....

Feel free to throw in any tactical comments that come to mind on these units, or even other units I've not mentioned.
The more ideas you throw at me ...... well, the more indecisive i will become, but I am interested to get some more experienced perspectives non-the-less

Look forward to hearing your thoughts and experiences on these units and Codex SM CC options.


I've been thinking about a 5x Relic blade Vanguard unit, and an all TH/SS death star biker command squad .... mainly because, well, theoretical awesomeness.
I am aware however that the biker command squad, that i hadn't started building yet, can no longer take plasma guns, and seems to rack up to some ridiculous points cost now ....
not to mention a 5xRelic Blade Vanguard Veteran unit maybe not being the best use of my precious Relic Blades.

Bike Command - Never use for CQC. They are infinitely better at shooting.
Vanguard - Too Expensive.
Honor Guard - Pretty Good. 50-60% of the unit w/ Axes 40-50% of the unit with Mauls. They can take on almost anything but try avoid getting tarpitted. Put them in a Land Raider with a Chaplain (Or any other Character as they all work fairly well together)

Vanguard vets are best if you give them the same upgrades you would give a regular unit of assault marines, supported by a jump chaplain. Vanguard vets only suck if you fall into the trap of loading them up with special gear just because you can.

I have been testing out a Honor guard unit to go with a Chaplain and my Beat stick Chapter Master.

Chapter Master Art armor, Sheild eternal, Thunder hammer.
Chaplain combi flamer
Honor guard. generaly 5.
Land Raider (generally Crusader)

Charge into enemy deployment zone, deploy and assault.

The Vanguard vets so far havent worked wonders for me, which is sad because I like the look of them on paper. Gonna try more set ups.

Vanguard vets suffer the perils of 6-th ed. They're not more useful than regular assault marines but are 20% more expensive. Basically, they got an advantage of +1 attack and no-disoriented charge. Though, there are many times when more damage in mellee will be either an overkill or harmful for you cause u'r main aim is to kill the enemy over 2 phases not to expose urself to shooting. Cause as soon as they're drawing too much attention - they die fast. They have hard time getting in mellee cause they're not bikers or cavalry. So the only remotedly useful thing you can do with them is putting a few stormshields to boost survivability vs ap2-3...and they'll still be worse than mediocre.
Or you can probably put them in a landraider but they'll have to replace honor guards in this case and still be worse once again.
Unfortunately, the best use i see for vanguard vets is counting them as a min squad of asm with 2 flamers in a drop pod

Don't forget that Sternguard are very competent in melee aswell.

They can be a nice hybrid unit, add some flamers / heavy flamers and they are very good in melee too.

Feasible wrote:
Bike Command - Never use for CQC. They are infinitely better at shooting.
Vanguard - Too Expensive.
Honor Guard - Pretty Good. 50-60% of the unit w/ Axes 40-50% of the unit with Mauls. They can take on almost anything but try avoid getting tarpitted. Put them in a Land Raider with a Chaplain (Or any other Character as they all work fairly well together)

so how would you kit a Biker Command Squad? considering they can no longer take special weapons. I'm starting to think a squad of standard bikers may be more practical, points-wise, in this codex?

Alexi wrote:I have been testing out a Honor guard unit to go with a Chaplain and my Beat stick Chapter Master.

Chapter Master Art armor, Sheild eternal, Thunder hammer.
Chaplain combi flamer
Honor guard. generaly 5.
Land Raider (generally Crusader)

Charge into enemy deployment zone, deploy and assault.

The Vanguard vets so far havent worked wonders for me, which is sad because I like the look of them on paper. Gonna try more set ups.

Well it seems like the general consensus is that Vanguard Veterans are best used as Assault Marines with an extra attack, so I'd be interested to hear how the other set-ups work for you, as it would almost seem a shame to use them as Assault Marines, when I already have more Assault Marines than i know what to do with .... I inherited some of my friends semi-constructed blood angels.

Vombat wrote:Don't forget that Sternguard are very competent in melee aswell.

They can be a nice hybrid unit, add some flamers / heavy flamers and they are very good in melee too.

A Sternguard is at the top of my 'must-build' list ... although i was going to give them all combi-weapons and a couple of heavy flamers, do you think it's worth giving the sergeant a decent melee weapon?

Capt-Crapulence wrote:

Feasible wrote:
Bike Command - Never use for CQC. They are infinitely better at shooting.
Vanguard - Too Expensive.
Honor Guard - Pretty Good. 50-60% of the unit w/ Axes 40-50% of the unit with Mauls. They can take on almost anything but try avoid getting tarpitted. Put them in a Land Raider with a Chaplain (Or any other Character as they all work fairly well together)

so how would you kit a Biker Command Squad? considering they can no longer take special weapons. I'm starting to think a squad of standard bikers may be more practical, points-wise, in this codex?

They absolutely can still take Special Weapons. Read the FAQ.

ahhhh sweet! thanks for bringing that to my attention Mr.Walrus! Plasma Rifles are back on the table

Capt-Crapulence wrote:
ahhhh sweet! thanks for bringing that to my attention Mr.Walrus! Plasma Rifles are back on the table

Grav-guns are too. The Bike Command Squad puts out a horrifying amount of Grav shots per turn.

Im a big proponent of Honor Guard. For 25 points you get a bolter, bolt pistol, power weapon and Artificier Armor. With the Banner you have a unit that has 5 power weapon attacks per marine on the Charge.

Id advise you chose a particular power weapon and kit out the entire unit with it. Each has its merits, i run my HG with power swords and use then as a MEQ killer. you can giv them axes if you want to go after 2+ save guys, or you can go the power maul route and make ur enemy roll a ton of armour saves.

Biker Command squads, as others have said, are better used as a platform for special weapons.

Vanguard are overcosted and still suck.

go with the Honor Guard

If you do take Vanguards, have Shrike lead them and the only upgrades you give them are melta bombs for all of them. And take ten.

Infiltrate them into cover and if you are bold enough let your opponent get first turn and try for a first turn assault. Shrike should be able to handle most things, meltas are for monsters and vehicles. You'l likely get shot up but hoepefully stealth on turn one in cover will mitigate some of it.

They're still not that great though.

would you still consider kitting a Biker Command Squad out with Storm Shields and Power Weapons if you're using them as a mobile special weapon platform?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I mean like AP2 power weapons. so you could roll through TEQs with a grav-gun salvo followed by AP2 melee, then go harass some other units ... ?

I have a friend the runs a 5 model Vanguard.

Vanguard Veteran Squad, 245 pts (Bolt Pistol x4; Jump Packs; Storm Shield x4; Power Sword x4)
1x Veteran Sergeant (Bolt Pistol; Jump Pack; Storm Shield; Relic Blade)

It is a lot of points, but it has made a great HQ Assassination Unit. The Storm Shields help with the incoming fire and the AP3 Weapons take out 3+ Armor.

I am planning on switching it up with Shrike, 5 Vets with Jump Packs and Lighting Claw/Power Fist landing near one of two Drop Pods that landed on Turn One.

 Anpu42 wrote:
I have a friend the runs a 5 model Vanguard.

Vanguard Veteran Squad, 245 pts (Bolt Pistol x4; Jump Packs; Storm Shield x4; Power Sword x4)
1x Veteran Sergeant (Bolt Pistol; Jump Pack; Storm Shield; Relic Blade)

It is a lot of points, but it has made a great HQ Assassination Unit. The Storm Shields help with the incoming fire and the AP3 Weapons take out 3+ Armor.

I am planning on switching it up with Shrike, 5 Vets with Jump Packs and Lighting Claw/Power Fist landing near one of two Drop Pods that landed on Turn One.

That is a lot of points in 5 models. Mmmm... juicy target. Marines can't afford to field juicy targets as they are juicy enough to begin with.

I would say the honor guard is your best bet, but they have serious mobility problems. C:SM just doesn't have much viable CC potential in it.

Martel732 wrote:

 Anpu42 wrote:
I have a friend the runs a 5 model Vanguard.

Vanguard Veteran Squad, 245 pts (Bolt Pistol x4; Jump Packs; Storm Shield x4; Power Sword x4)
1x Veteran Sergeant (Bolt Pistol; Jump Pack; Storm Shield; Relic Blade)

It is a lot of points, but it has made a great HQ Assassination Unit. The Storm Shields help with the incoming fire and the AP3 Weapons take out 3+ Armor.

I am planning on switching it up with Shrike, 5 Vets with Jump Packs and Lighting Claw/Power Fist landing near one of two Drop Pods that landed on Turn One.

That is a lot of points in 5 models. Mmmm... juicy target. Marines can't afford to field juicy targets as they are juicy enough to begin with.

I would say the honor guard is your best bet, but they have serious mobility problems. C:SM just doesn't have much viable CC potential in it.

When it works it is Game winning, When it fails...the game becomes a struggle.

Why do you care about killing an HQ anyway? Except maybe a buffmander? It's not like librarians or biker chapter masters are taking over the world.

Martel732 wrote:
Why do you care about killing an HQ anyway? Except maybe a buffmander? It's not like librarians or biker chapter masters are taking over the world.

Victory Points: First Blood, Slay the Warlord and if they are still alive Line Breaker.

 Anpu42 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Why do you care about killing an HQ anyway? Except maybe a buffmander? It's not like librarians or biker chapter masters are taking over the world.

Victory Points: First Blood, Slay the Warlord and if they are still alive Line Breaker.

Wouldn't it be easier to shoot them though?

 Anpu42 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Why do you care about killing an HQ anyway? Except maybe a buffmander? It's not like librarians or biker chapter masters are taking over the world.

Victory Points: First Blood, Slay the Warlord and if they are still alive Line Breaker.

It sounds great but they die lie regular marines. Marines in Double Tap range will kill 2 alone....

For C:SM, you've got quite a few options for CC units.

The winners for me are Honour Guard. They're very cheap for what you get, make a great bodyguard for a HQ, and with a banner, they can either get +1A or re-rolls in the first round if you go with the relic banner. I've not run the maths, so I couldn't tell you which is better, but if you throw in a Chaplain and banner, you get the best of both worlds. A LRC or Drop pod is probably the best option for transport. The Pod will mean you take more damage but you get into CC sooner, the LR is expensive but you are pretty much impossible to really touch until you reach the enemy.

Vanguard really are best run as AM+1, as they have a pretty good number of attacks for the points if you run them bare. I'd actually run them in concert with a couple of Assault Squads to give you a mobile force that can apply threat from several units, diverting and dividing incoming fire.

Termies of either kind are still good, but I'd hesitate to take them in a raider when you get so much more bang for your buck with Honour Guard. DS them in and punch stuff up. They maybe aren't the most competitive option, but they can still do pretty well.

I'd also say it's always worth supporting CC options with a squad or two of assault marines, as running in alone is a surefire way to get killed. You need threat overload to force target prioritisation, and AM are the cheapest way to do this. Avoid hard CC units, as they'll eat up most C:SM CC options, and stick to the old motto 'shoot the choppy, chop the shooty' and you're good to go.

 Feasible wrote:

 Anpu42 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Why do you care about killing an HQ anyway? Except maybe a buffmander? It's not like librarians or biker chapter masters are taking over the world.

Victory Points: First Blood, Slay the Warlord and if they are still alive Line Breaker.

It sounds great but they die lie regular marines. Marines in Double Tap range will kill 2 alone....

I was taling about the 5x Storm Shield Unit. All you got to do is survive one turn of shooting, sometimes you do, sometimes you don't.
For the Srhike one, I don't know yet. I have not tried it yet.

Blood angel Assault Masrines with Corbulo at their head is VERY tough.

Perhaps an allied contingent?

 Jancoran wrote:
Blood angel Assault Masrines with Corbulo at their head is VERY tough.

Perhaps an allied contingent?

It's decent. It lack mobility because Corbs is on foot only.

I understand, but the loss of mobility is forgivable when delivered in a pod on the front door.

 Jancoran wrote:
I understand, but the loss of mobility is forgivable when delivered in a pod on the front door.

Pods are very overrated. The "dead turn" where they can't assault is often the fatal flaw. People have dropped all kinds of units next to me. None are as good as Space Wolves, because they are just as good being assaulted and when they assault.

overrated or not, Corbulo can turn almost every shot at his unit to dust.

Only those less than S 8.

Look out Sir. On 2+. handled.

 Jancoran wrote:
Look out Sir. On 2+. handled.

But that's defeating the purpose of a wound sponge. Now your guys are taking the wounds. Of course a big reason I quit using this set up was Tau pie plates and Eldar Jetseers.