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 Anpu42 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Anpu42 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Anpu42 wrote:
You both are assuming that I would Be Stupid Enough to place them in a Place where every unit in your Backfield can shoot at them and that they will show up on trun 2 when everything should be still in good shape.Think about them showing on Turn 3-4 behined a building or other blocking terrain about 18" from my intended target.

That's assuming there is appropriate situation blocking terrain. And trying to get behind blocking terrain means you can always mishap into said terrain. DS has too many moving parts to be a reliable threat. I welcome my opponent to DS as many CC troops as they like.

And I don't need every unit to gun down 5 meqs with storm shields. Just a couple. It's an easy unit to cripple as well.

Scatter, well that drop pod from turn one with a Locater Beacon solves then.
And you might not have the units avalible?
It come down to many things that can not be bought out here.
I have also have had it done to me, especialy vs and agresive army that leaves ungaurded units in the rear [like I have done] forgeting the VVs were still in reserve on turn 4, one good hand full of saves can make the diference. it only takes one or two moedls with AP3 Weapons to wreck a Long Fanges Pack quickly.

You need Long Fangs to die long before turn 4. Reserves are the devil, and have been since 5th started. You want as many models on the board from turn 1 killing stuff. In general..

Well sometines thing just don't work that way.

On Topice: We have been finding Vanguards are the best we have used, but we have not been using Codex: Space Marines Honor Guard.

Vanguard Veteran Squad, 245 pts (Bolt Pistol x4; Jump Packs; Storm Shield x4; Power Sword x4)
1x Veteran Sergeant (Bolt Pistol; Jump Pack; Storm Shield; Relic Blade)


^ Is one of the worst ways to use Vanguard. You die easily from small arms, I5, templates, 2+ armor, etc. ,but thank god that your 49.5 point models can take a tank shell to the face and can kill space marines, IF and only if they get into combat. Which they won't

That squad is worse than I thought. That's for enumerating it's terribleness for me.

I guess I must be making up crap then if is it has happend

I believe you. I just don't believe in your level of competition. That squad would not work in most play areas at all.

Martel732 wrote:
I believe you. I just don't believe in your level of competition. That squad would not work in most play areas at all.

So, it works with us, the guy wanted advice so I told him somthing that worked for me, what more can I do?

Expand your thought to all possible opponents and obstacles, and not just your personal experiences. Use math to conjecture what might be good in a general sense.

Martel732 wrote:
Expand your thought to all possible opponents and obstacles, and not just your personal experiences. Use math to conjecture what might be good in a general sense.

I do
I know that if I drop a squad like that into the midle of a bunch of units it is going to get creamed.
I also don't trust mathhammer. I have seen it go wrong for decades. If I listend to mathhammer I would have never played Blood Claws.
Instead I thought about it Added a Wolf Priest to the mix [the first on Dakka to do so as far as I can tell] and now my Blood Claws are winning games for me.

The same thing can be said about insisting that squads based on tournament meta are the only way to go without taking his local meta into consideration.

 Anpu42 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Expand your thought to all possible opponents and obstacles, and not just your personal experiences. Use math to conjecture what might be good in a general sense.

I do
I know that if I drop a squad like that into the midle of a bunch of units it is going to get creamed.
I also don't trust mathhammer. I have seen it go wrong for decades. If I listend to mathhammer I would have never played Blood Claws.
Instead I thought about it Added a Wolf Priest to the mix [the first on Dakka to do so as far as I can tell] and now my Blood Claws are winning games for me.

Mathhammer can go wrong in individual games, but over many, many games, it is exactly correct. I wouldn't use your playgroup as a good barometer of what is good. I forget the stats on blood claws, but I'm sure there is a reason people think they are bad.

 d-usa wrote:
The same thing can be said about insisting that squads based on tournament meta are the only way to go without taking his local meta into consideration.

I have seen that to.
A new guy show up with a list from he Meta and it takes a few games before he figures out how to play in another.
sticking with the same thing orver and over makes it hard to look outside the Box.
Look at the HellDrake, whe it came out the whole comunity was talking about what a peice of crap it was and then used by somebody to kill off some MEQs, presto a broken unit was discovered.

I am testing a honor guard unit next weekend. I will let you know how it goes.

8 honor guard, 1 with chapter banner (not the relic) standard weapons.
Chapter Master, Thunder hammer, Sheild eternal, art armor
Chaplain, combi-flamer
Drop pod.
Imperial Fist tactics. Lots of bolt shots the turn I drop, plus the combi flamer, with the CHM to tank wounds. Assault the next turn. The chapter champoin does the challange, even with the 2 hq's because he has to, that frees the CHM up to use his TH and charge attack with the chaplain bonus.

Alexi wrote:
I am testing a honor guard unit next weekend. I will let you know how it goes.

8 honor guard, 1 with chapter banner (not the relic) standard weapons.
Chapter Master, Thunder hammer, Sheild eternal, art armor
Chaplain, combi-flamer
Drop pod.
Imperial Fist tactics. Lots of bolt shots the turn I drop, plus the combi flamer, with the CHM to tank wounds. Assault the next turn. The chapter champoin does the challange, even with the 2 hq's because he has to, that frees the CHM up to use his TH and charge attack with the chaplain bonus.

You can't drop these guys anywhere close to grav, plasma, D-scythes, or rending claws. Be careful. Or Eldar troops. Or emer override Riptides. Dammit I hate CC in 6th.

Poly Ranger wrote:Probably the best marine assault army on paper is carcharodons... A LOT better than BA for considerably cheaper.
If Tyberos breaks a unit your 14pt scoring marines are getting 4 st 5 attacks on the charge each. Thats just silly.
You can pod, rhino rush or footslog. If footslogging just throw in a few ordeo xenos inquisitors with hammerhand or prescience and rad granades and you're sorted.

sorry, not heard of the Carcharodons ... according to Warhammer Wiki they're Raven Guard successors? just wondering where the extra attack and strength comes from?
Have been considering an allied detachment for all my excess assault marines

Martel732 wrote:Make them work out that way. When shooting, you choose what dies, not your opponent. That's why one reason Taudar are broken and CC armies stink up the joint.

Vanguards are not as offensive as they were in 5th, but probably the best thing to give them is meltabombs so they can terrorize MCs.

Honor guards are fantastic on paper, but suffer from mobilization problems. They end up being average in practice, imo. Which good for a CC unit in 6th. They too suffer from weaponry jumping from AP 4 to AP 2 .

The bottom line is that there is no marine CC unit I'd put in a TAC list.

I do quite like the idea of giving them meltabombs and terrorizing MCs

 Anpu42 wrote:

Look at the HellDrake, whe it came out the whole comunity was talking about what a peice of crap it was and then used by somebody to kill off some MEQs, presto a broken unit was discovered.

It released with questionable firing arcs. GW gave it a 360 arc, then it was broken.

Alexi wrote:
I am testing a honor guard unit next weekend. I will let you know how it goes.

8 honor guard, 1 with chapter banner (not the relic) standard weapons.
Chapter Master, Thunder hammer, Sheild eternal, art armor
Chaplain, combi-flamer
Drop pod.
Imperial Fist tactics. Lots of bolt shots the turn I drop, plus the combi flamer, with the CHM to tank wounds. Assault the next turn. The chapter champoin does the challange, even with the 2 hq's because he has to, that frees the CHM up to use his TH and charge attack with the chaplain bonus.

That looks like a pretty scary unit one you get into CC, and as you point out, with that number of bolt shots then you can also contribute to the first wave of a tac-pod list. Just remember to support them and you should be fine.

 Anpu42 wrote:
I guess I must be making up crap then if is it has happend

Just because it works for you doesn't mean anything, even against Meq that spams Plasma Guns, which is your best matchup, you'd still die quickly.

Alexi wrote:
I am testing a honor guard unit next weekend. I will let you know how it goes.

8 honor guard, 1 with chapter banner (not the relic) standard weapons.
Chapter Master, Thunder hammer, Sheild eternal, art armor
Chaplain, combi-flamer
Drop pod.
Imperial Fist tactics. Lots of bolt shots the turn I drop, plus the combi flamer, with the CHM to tank wounds. Assault the next turn. The chapter champoin does the challange, even with the 2 hq's because he has to, that frees the CHM up to use his TH and charge attack with the chaplain bonus.

I like it, the tanking Chapter Master is always good. The Chapter Champ sucking up the challenge seems very good to allow your other HQ's to beat down. Just avoid getting charged by Ork Mobs....

The game I am first trying them in is against either a Ultra Marines list or Space Wolfs. I believe he decided on SW. I admit it will be tough to support them where I intend on dropping them, but the melta, multi melta tac squad on the other side of the fortress of redemtion SHOULD draw a bunch of the fire the first turn.

As for supporting them, my DEV squads are taking MLx4 and LAS cannon x4 so I am hoping to cause a few wounds there as well

Capt-Crapulence wrote:

Poly Ranger wrote:Probably the best marine assault army on paper is carcharodons... A LOT better than BA for considerably cheaper.
If Tyberos breaks a unit your 14pt scoring marines are getting 4 st 5 attacks on the charge each. Thats just silly.
You can pod, rhino rush or footslog. If footslogging just throw in a few ordeo xenos inquisitors with hammerhand or prescience and rad granades and you're sorted.

sorry, not heard of the Carcharodons ... according to Warhammer Wiki they're Raven Guard successors? just wondering where the extra attack and strength comes from?
Have been considering an allied detachment for all my excess assault marines

Martel732 wrote:Make them work out that way. When shooting, you choose what dies, not your opponent. That's why one reason Taudar are broken and CC armies stink up the joint.

Vanguards are not as offensive as they were in 5th, but probably the best thing to give them is meltabombs so they can terrorize MCs.

Honor guards are fantastic on paper, but suffer from mobilization problems. They end up being average in practice, imo. Which good for a CC unit in 6th. They too suffer from weaponry jumping from AP 4 to AP 2 .

The bottom line is that there is no marine CC unit I'd put in a TAC list.

I do quite like the idea of giving them meltabombs and terrorizing MCs

Extra s and a come from a combination of CT and tyberos spec rules. CT means tac squads can take chainswords and get rage if they break an opponent. Whilst tyberos grants army wide +1s if his unit breaks another. Check FW CT for other CTs, they are free downloads.

Seeing as this is the tactics section, and this is a topic on Codex Marines CC units, how about a scenario?

we are Ultramarines, our opponents are Crimson Fists. They have 'Bolter Dill' and 'Tank Hunters', so I'm thinking some up-close-and-personal tactics would be a feasible option.
Hit them Hard and fast?

how would you go about Battling a Brother?
any obvious weapons, any obvious units, he would be sure to think of too...




Automatically Appended Next Post:
oh and at 1500p cap

Well, for dealing with SM, we have a few good tools (probably from 10,000 years of fighting heretics). Bringing plasma guns is always a safe bet against MEQ, as are ML firing Krak.

CC is less powerful simply because you can't sweep SM, so the trick of doing a few wounds and running down won't work very well. SM vs SM assaults are always very protracted, and should be avoided unless you need to tie up his shooting units. It's very likely to come down to a shootout.

Sternguard are very nice against marines, as they have either AP3 ammo or poisoned 2+ shots if you don't fancy the risk of Gets Hot and want to force saves against 2+ save units. Definitely try and get some in your list if you can.

Other than that, just go for the general things of strategy. Outmanoeuvre, pick your fights and play the mission. Hope that helps.

 Paradigm wrote:

Outmanoeuvre, pick your fights and play the mission.

This more than anything!

If you want to maximize CC first with your primary you want to run a chapter master with jump pack, teeth of Terra and another specialist weapon for potential to have 9 attacks on the charge minimum of 6 on the charge at strength 6 ap 3. Have a jump chaplain or jump Librarian to enhance him and Vanguard while expensive would keep up best unless you run him with plain assault troops. Have your Honor Guard with banner and a good mix of weapons to take all comers, I personally run them with a tech marine and rhino or razorback to speed them along. Iron Hands chapter tactics make them all more survive able. Also you could squeeze in a extra Chaplin in with the Recelsium Command Squad Formation. Those data slate formation don't count as your allied formation, you could even run an allied space Marine chapter to unlock another headquarter and Black Templars Tactics for Crisader Squads and great in challenges. This is just my opinion.

Drakka77 wrote:
If you want to maximize CC first with your primary you want to run a chapter master with jump pack, teeth of Terra and another specialist weapon for potential to have 9 attacks on the charge minimum of 6 on the charge at strength 6 ap 3.

Bike, Shield Eternal and either Burning Blade or a Thunder Hammer. Paying for an AP3 beatstick like that is a massive waste. Paying for a Jump Pack when you can get a Bike is too.

Not nessarily, in my area invul saves are everywhere so ap 2 doesn't help much, bike is no help melee except make you a little tougher same with the shield I was talking maximizing offensive capabilities. My set up for chapter master is the terror of my meta. And all those upgrades are cheap compared to burning blade. Rampage itself makes it worth it it me but the strike down is great too for it halfs the opponents initative.

Drakka77 wrote:
Not nessarily, in my area invul saves are everywhere so ap 2 doesn't help much, bike is no help melee except make you a little tougher same with the shield I was talking maximizing offensive capabilities. My set up for chapter master is the terror of my meta. And all those upgrades are cheap compared to burning blade. Rampage itself makes it worth it it me but the strike down is great too for it halfs the opponents initative.

Bike lets you both move 12" and reroll charge distance.

So does jump and it gives you deep strike, and hammer of wrath. It's personal preference as I said. Bike says ranged to me versus cc.

Drakka77 wrote:
So does jump and it gives you deep strike, and hammer of wrath. It's personal preference as I said. Bike says ranged to me versus cc.

Bikes give HoW too. All you're losing out on is Deep Strike, and if you're deep striking a melee Chapter Master with a Jump Pack I'm going to say you're doing it wrong, personal preference or not.

It's worked for me so wrong or not it's right in my case. Anyways we are suggesting tactics for cc, so eh. Also if you do inquisitors with your space marines Hammerhand psyic power and Ordo Xeno Rad Grenades make things interesting. Hammerhand adds plus one strength and rad is minus one toughness for the enemy including for instant death thresholds.

well, as my enemy are Crimson Fists, I didn't think i could particularly easily out-shoot the Bolter Meisters.
I know he's bringing Sternguard .. we can safely assume He's going to have 2 tactical squads and Pedro Kantor
As this is the manager of my local gamesworkshop, I think he might try something heavy like flying in a dreadnought and grav-centurion squad in a storm raven....because he can.
That all adds up to 1500 'roughly' .... but he could still go with something like honour guard, terminators, landraider

I was thinking of taking:
chapter master with Power fist and shield eternal - for Pedro
Honour Guard (4) w/ banner - MEQ slaughter
Landraider Redeemer - honourguard transport / MEQ slaughter
Multi-melta Dread in Drop Pod
Small Devastator squad (2 las cannons)
Tactical squad (x2) w/ plasma cannon, plasma gun and combi-grav
Stormtalon w/las cannons

was hoping to cripple lead units as fast as possible and still be able to deal with any tough mothers left over
drop pod dread turn one, assualt with honour guard/chapter master and dread by turn two?
hunker down with tacticals, and ride the storm from then on?

any thoughts?

Drakka77 wrote:
It's worked for me so wrong or not it's right in my case. Anyways we are suggesting tactics for cc, so eh.

Chapter Masters should never be in a jump pack over a bike. Bikes give relentless meaning you can fire your Orbital Bombardment even while moving. A jump pack guy would have to stand still for an entire turn which defeats the purpose of having a jump pack to begin with. There's really no reason to pay the extra points to be a chapter master over just a captain if you're going jump pack, as the main reason to do so is that orbital bombardment.

Bikes are fantastic for close combat, IMHO better than jump packs. It gives a jink save against high AP weaponry in the snap fire phase (not that a guy with an Iron Halo needs to worry about it), still get hammer of wrath, always get to move 12" and ignore terrain when rolling charge distances. Plus you can turbo boost on your first turn to be within charging distance on the second turn while deep striking assault marines are not in assault til turn 3 at best.

I get you like your dude and am glad you've had success with him. It's just a friendly suggestion on how to get even more out of the same unit. 5 points more is worth it for relentless alone on a chapter master.